I think the stress/hassle factor is often overlooked, particularly when transit commuting isn't in the observer's recent experience. From my experience, different folks use different transit modes in a variety of ways while on board. Years ago I rode MARTA to Five Points daily: car to Stone Mtn., bus to Avondale (the line didn't go to Indian Creek then) and then on in on the train. I could read the newspaper or a book. At my work, some folks wondered why I traveled that way. Since the blue line had only opened one year earlier, rapid transit was new to most Atlanta residents, while for me it was just a continuation of my commuting patterns in Chicago, both from the suburbs on the CNW and on the CTA in the city on the Ravenswood L or Wilson bus or occasionally on the CNW. On the CNW, folks read, slept, talked played cards, etc. On the L or bus, folks sat and read or stood and held on. I do think one's own initial experiences with commuting and observed learning of parents' commuting habits plays a big role in choices later on. Now that MARTA has run trains in Atlanta for ~30 years, have the habits of commuters to downtown or Buckhead or Midtown changed?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmannd So, why do I do it? Because, driving during rush hour here is a pain. It's a lot of work and I would arrive home stressed. When I ride the bus, I read, then usually fall asleep and arrive home in a much better mood. It's strictly a quality of life calculation to me. I would pay a good bit more to ride the bus - $5 is a bargain. (and I do realize that is allowing me to keep that 14 year old Camry on the road a few more years than it would otherwise)
So, why do I do it? Because, driving during rush hour here is a pain. It's a lot of work and I would arrive home stressed. When I ride the bus, I read, then usually fall asleep and arrive home in a much better mood. It's strictly a quality of life calculation to me. I would pay a good bit more to ride the bus - $5 is a bargain. (and I do realize that is allowing me to keep that 14 year old Camry on the road a few more years than it would otherwise)
I would like to expand on DON's example;
By not buying a new car yet he saves what $300 / mo car payments or for work 21 days a month or ~~ $ 14.25 / day car payments. Maintenance on car especially brakes ~~ $ 5.00 / day. Extra Insurance costs for driving to work ~~ $ 2.00 / day. So to be conservative ~~ $ 20.00 / day to not pay for driving. Savings per year ? If Don works 11 mo / yr = $7920 / yr.
Of course the auto lobby and all its various branches do not want these figures well known..
If there is no decent choice to driving for a commute, then of course you have to. But even if the commuter transit is somewhat slower and/or as or more expensive than the out-of-pocket expenses for driving the entire distance, I think many prefer the reduction in stress and the ability to do something more fun (tablet or laptop, read, talk, etc.) or productive (work on job-related materials and projects).
I forgot 2 items of annual costs for Don's car. Depending on the county he lives a new car tag and tax will be $500 + vs $ 100 - for his old car. emissions control is a wash so-------
Total costs = ~~ $8420 / year
schlimmI think many prefer the reduction in stress and the ability to do something more fun (tablet or laptop, read, talk, etc.) or productive (work on job-related materials and projects).
I've always believe stress reduction is an important reason to use transit. In many ways stress is built into our lives and there is very little we can do to control it. However, riding a bus or train eliminates two blocks of stress every day. It has long been known that in our society men die younger than women do. I think that stress has a lot to do with that.
blue streak 1I would like to expand on DON's example
The big saving comes from not having a car at all. Going from 3 cars to 2 cars or from 2 cars to 1 car saves even more money. Some people are reluctant to have one car because they want a backup for when their car is in the shop. However, when you consider the cost of insurance it is a lot cheaper to rent a car for the times your own is not available.
blue streak 1 Although this thread is mainly transit it applies to all AMTRAK as well. ... 8. Starting in the late 1960s in the NEC and in California in the 1980s some rail was built with parking. Some Bus routes were co-ordinated with the train schedules out west. Then reduced time attracted some riders especially in southern CA however not to the extent of what transit promoters hoped. 9. The advent of the laptop computer has changed the time metric as travel on commuter rails enable ~~ 80% of that time to be used for laptop work or sleep if desired. Subway & bus probably not because of the worry about grab and run criminals. 10. Will the advent of Wi-Fi and cell phone 4G attract some additional riders? That question can only be guessed how many ? This is a definite chicken and egg situation as the spotty coverage that still occurrs on the NEC due to lack of adequate antenna coverage at many locations is an example.
Although this thread is mainly transit it applies to all AMTRAK as well.
...
8. Starting in the late 1960s in the NEC and in California in the 1980s some rail was built with parking. Some Bus routes were co-ordinated with the train schedules out west. Then reduced time attracted some riders especially in southern CA however not to the extent of what transit promoters hoped.
9. The advent of the laptop computer has changed the time metric as travel on commuter rails enable ~~ 80% of that time to be used for laptop work or sleep if desired. Subway & bus probably not because of the worry about grab and run criminals.
10. Will the advent of Wi-Fi and cell phone 4G attract some additional riders? That question can only be guessed how many ? This is a definite chicken and egg situation as the spotty coverage that still occurrs on the NEC due to lack of adequate antenna coverage at many locations is an example.
My recent experiences with commuting by rail (as opposed to 2 quarters at Cal commuting from Lake Merritt by BART):
First experience was two days of Jury duty in the Downtown San Diego courthouse - a three block walk to the courthouse was much nicer than trying to find parking near there and the trip did not involve transfer between transit modes.
Current experience is taking Amtrak to Orange County (SOL to IRV) brings up points 9 & 10. Being able to use a laptop and Wi-Fi does make taking the train more attractive, allowing to get work done in what otherwise would be lost time. Amtrak does acknowledge that in providing 120VAC outlets at every seat and providing Wi-Fi service as well - figure ~10 minutes of dead time in the hour travel time between SOL and IRV.
- Erik
schlimmNow that MARTA has run trains in Atlanta for ~30 years, have the habits of commuters to downtown or Buckhead or Midtown changed?
Yes. Huge expansion in Midtown - both office, condo high rises have gone up - and are going up at this moment. Most of the the young folk coming to work here live "close in" even if they don't use transit.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
blue streak 1 I forgot 2 items of annual costs for Don's car. Depending on the county he lives a new car tag and tax will be $500 + vs $ 100 - for his old car. emissions control is a wash so------- I would like to expand on DON's example; By not buying a new car yet he saves what $300 / mo car payments or for work 21 days a month or ~~ $ 14.25 / day car payments. Maintenance on car especially brakes ~~ $ 5.00 / day. Extra Insurance costs for driving to work ~~ $ 2.00 / day. So to be conservative ~~ $ 20.00 / day to not pay for driving. Savings per year ? If Don works 11 mo / yr = $7920 / yr. Of course the auto lobby and all its various branches do not want these figures well known.. Total costs = ~~ $8420 / year
Only if you can do without a car completely - or have handy Zipcar location near you for the few times you do need one. If you need the car to get to transit, some of those costs are sunk costs - time based depreciation, most of insurance, etc.
John WRIt has long been known that in our society men die younger than women do. I think that stress has a lot to do with that.
Alan King used to do a bit "survived by wife" where he had a series of obits where, no matter how old the guy who died was, he was "survived by wife".
Possible source of stress???
Anecdotal observation: I have noticed that many visitors to New York seem to be scared of riding the subway to get around out of fear of getting lost or winding up in the wrong neighborhood. My personal experience as a visitor was quite different. When I visited New York many years ago, I stayed in New Jersey, took NJ Transit to Hoboken, PATH into Manhattan and easily used the subway to get around. I would look at my handy-dandy subway map, figure out where I was, where I wanted to go and plan out my route (including transfers) to get there. Of course, it probably helped that I grew up using public transit (CTA, South Shore, etc.) on a regular basis.
CSSHEGEWISCH Anecdotal observation: I have noticed that many visitors to New York seem to be scared of riding the subway to get around out of fear of getting lost or winding up in the wrong neighborhood. My personal experience as a visitor was quite different. When I visited New York many years ago, I stayed in New Jersey, took NJ Transit to Hoboken, PATH into Manhattan and easily used the subway to get around. I would look at my handy-dandy subway map, figure out where I was, where I wanted to go and plan out my route (including transfers) to get there. Of course, it probably helped that I grew up using public transit (CTA, South Shore, etc.) on a regular basis.
CSSHEGEWISCH I have noticed that many visitors to New York seem to be scared of riding the subway
Not just the subway but of public transit in general. It is ridiculous in one way. But if you have no experience with it I guess it can be daunting.
It is seeming as if the younger generations have a inability to read maps and to understand where they are in relation to where they want to go. With that being the case, New York and public transporation is a daunting undertaking.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
John WR CSSHEGEWISCH I have noticed that many visitors to New York seem to be scared of riding the subway Not just the subway but of public transit in general. It is ridiculous in one way. But if you have no experience with it I guess it can be daunting.
If you have experience on any one system, most of your knowledge is transferable. The most daunting task these days is figuring out the fare card system.
My observation in NYC is that the signage for transit is confusing compared to that in some other large cities. Poor graphics and fonts.
oltmanndI don't trust city buses. No tracks!
You might try asking the bus driver.
Interesting comment on NYCTA signage. The Authority is proud of its uniformly "Helvitia" type signage! They might learn something from you. But what exactly confuses you?
schlimmMy observation in NYC is that the signage for transit is confusing
I can't agree with you, Schlimm. In Manhattan bus stop signs contain a map of the whole route and a schedule of when the buses stop. In New Jersey a very few bus stops have those amenities but almost all do not. If you are lucky you get a bus stop sign; in many places there is not even that.
In New Jersey if there is no bus stop sign NJT says the bus will stop at any place that is "reasonable." But what is "reasonable" is undefined and bus drivers will not in fact stop at places they do not regularly stop. If you need to ride a bus and you are unfamiliar with the area there is really no way to know where it will stop unless you are lucky enough to see a regular rider waiting.
I was referring to the subways and specifically locations where several lines connect. The alphabet soup of trains on the same line could be confusing as well, especially for international visitors. I have no trouble with NYC, having been there countless times, but the signage is no where near as user-friendly as in Boston, Chicago, London, Berlin,,Munich, Hamburg, Shanghai, Beijing, Toronto or Rome, to name a few places.
schlimmThe alphabet soup of trains on the same line could be confusing as well,
Certainly the alphabet soup is confusing. But is it the designation of trains or the sheer number of trains? New York has 24 subway lines which are designated by letters or numbers. That is a few more than, for example, Boston or Toronto have.
Remember that the New York rapid transit network is the most complex of any in the World. We did have a question that was answered that there are currently 73 different ways to route a train from Stillwell Avenue - Coney Island to Jamaica - Archer Avenue without reversting direction! So there is built-in confusion when you have four different services stopping at the same side of the same platform, as at DeKalb Avenue at certain times. Given the real enormity of the problem, I think the current signage is the best system that the subway has had, and it would really take a genius to improve it further.
The other vast systems generally have, or at the mos two, services share a given line. Boston's Green Line is an exception.
daveklepper Remember that the New York rapid transit network is the most complex of any in the World.
Remember that the New York rapid transit network is the most complex of any in the World.
C'mon people. The most complicated transit system has to be Tokyo. And I don't know how to read the signs
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
John WR oltmanndI don't trust city buses. No tracks! You might try asking the bus driver.
He's the problem! He "decides" where the bus is going to go...
oltmannd John WR oltmanndI don't trust city buses. No tracks! You might try asking the bus driver. He's the problem! He "decides" where the bus is going to go...
(From The Honeymooners: Ralph Kramden is an overbearing New York City bus driver, who may have gotten to be like that from dealing with passengers who don't know their way and are holding up his bus; his pal and neighbor Ed Norton is more amiable but does not work directly with the public as he is a city worker whose job involves the city sewers.)
Ralph: So Norton! Why are you late to the meetin'? I got here on time, and I had to get here from all the way cross town! You only needed to get here from two blocks up the street!
Norton: Well gee Ralph. I got here as soon as I could, but it was "upstream", all the way!
Buy an older car (in my case, a MUCH older car) for which I can factor in both acquisition and repairs (seriously, if your car requires $1500 a year in repairs, you got a dud) and/or replacement costs at less than $100/month. Insurance on the old car, including commuting, amounts to $2/day or less for me, $1.50 if you're only counting weekdays. Let's, under your accounting system, call it $4/day. Plus gas, of course.Meanwhile, let's factor in cost of TIME. My wife could drive to work or back in 20 minutes. Transit takes about 50 minutes, and that's with amazingly direct connections and service. There are times when I can go downtown for work and it'll be cheap and easy ONLY because I can walk ten minutes to a subway station, then ten minutes at the end of a ten-to-20-minute ride (depends on the time waiting). My wife could ride a bike instead of belonging to a health spa. :-)In my wife's case, transit would sap another hour out of her day--an hour she could devote to more work (on commissioned artwork) or more leisure. What's that 5 hours a week worth to you? What do you make an hour? Economists call this "opportunity cost."Other extreme: a friend who can drive to work in five minutes, ride a bike in twenty, or spend 1.5 hours on transit.
LNER4472
Paul MilenkovicNorton: Well gee Ralph. I got here as soon as I could, but it was "upstream", all the way!
The line I remember is:
Norton. "Ralph, life is like a sewer. You only get out of it what you put into it."
Surveys from the younger generation are interesting. To their credit they are not smoking or anxious to buy cars. Unfortunately, the economy and lack of jobs may be the cause in part of their disinterest. However these traits make them good candidates for rail transit. Perhaps that was what the Amtrak Youtube Gangnam style video was about. My mindset growing up in the 80's did not even think of rail travel/Amtrak as an option. I only began riding Amtrak after various TSA policies were implemented over the last decade. I was pleasantly surprised by the service and comfort riding the Crescent from Atlanta. However, when I recommend Amtrak to my piers here in Atlanta, they are usually surprised to hear that Amtrak even serves Atlanta.
I think more people will think of rail travel as an alternative as congestion on the highway and at the airports continues to cause frustration and delay. If rail services are only slightly improved consistently over time implementing the various adjustments mentioned, there could easily be a large favorable shift in rail service demand.
Variogarmin I was pleasantly surprised by the service and comfort riding the Crescent from Atlanta.
Atlanta south toward New Orleans or Atlanta north toward New York?
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