I agree with you. An auto train from the mid west to Texas is appealing and deserves study. However, Amtrak seems not inclined to take on new projects.
John WR But clearly many people do want to use Amtrak's Auto Train. It is one of Amtrack's more successful services.
But clearly many people do want to use Amtrak's Auto Train. It is one of Amtrack's more successful services.
To say that it is one of Amtrak's more successful services is to say that it is not winning the race to the bottom amongst the long distance trains.
In FY12 the Auto Train lost $34.9 million before depreciation, interest, and adjustments. Its loss per passenger and seat mile was less than the long distance train averages (15.4 and 10.7 compared to 20.5 and 12.8), but that is like saying that it was not quite as ugly as the other contestants in the ugly ducklings pageant.
In FY12 ridership on the Auto Train increased 1.6%, i.e. from 254,554 to 264,096, and revenues increased 5.7%, i.e. from $68.6 million to $72.5 million. Ridership on the long distance trains increased 4.7% whilst long distance train revenues increased 7.2%. Auto Train improved its operating ratio, but it trailed the long distance train averages by significant amounts. In terms of numbers of passengers, the Auto Train stood in the middle of the pack, helped in part by the fact that it beat out two trains that run only three days a week.
One can make the case that the long distance trains meet a social need, although I don't buy it, and have long advocated getting rid of them so that train resources can be focused on short corridors. The Auto Train is a vacation special. I see no social justification for the government hoisting a vacation train, especially for a country that is $16+ trillion in debt.
I think about 260k rode Auto Train last year. So, you are right, it is attractive. During the course of my reasearch about tourism in Texas and other states I came across an interesting bit of data. The most visited state is California. Second is Florida. And third is Texas. So applying my logic to the available information and considering geography, and population it seems that a Midwest Texas Auto Train would be worth some study if Amtrak had plans to expand the concept. It seems more appealing than Midwest to Florida or Midwest to a far west destination.
I guess I would conclude why would anyone want to take the Auto Train to Florida? Florida's tourist attractions are all over the state. It is a big state. Dropping you off at Sanford leaves you hundreds of miles to drive to visit many attractions. I have some relatives that make the trip from St. Louis to Tampa in one shot. It is about 1100 miles. And they have kids. I have done so myself.
Occasionally the Chicago Florida or west conversation pops up and I am trying to figure out why an upper Midwest to Texas Auto Train is any less desirable than Florida etc. , especailly when it too is a money loser. I am being hypothetical. I realize that there would be considerable up front costs to develop another Auto Train. I realize no such service will happen.
Enjoyed the discussion,
In most areas of the country John and Mary can contact a personal vehicle transporter and have their car taken to Arizona, Florida, Texas or wherever. Or they can contract to have it driven to their destination.
My brother-in-law, who was a New York City police officer, supplemented his income by driving cars to Florida. He used his days off to do it. He would drive straight through and return by commercial air after delivery.
Perhaps what we need is a vehicle express service modeled after the old Railway Express Service. You bring your vehicle to the station within certain hours, it is put on a train and delivered to a certain station on schedule. You then pick it up at the other end.
This is really a freight service and perhaps it could be better accomplished by a freight train. You don't ride the same train with your vehicle although the service could be coordinated with Amtrak schedules.
Clearly and has been pointed out a lot of planning and market research would have to be done. There would be a lot of important details to make the plan work. The service would, on the one hand, tailored to meet a lot of individual needs and, on the other hand, organize a lot of individuals with very similar needs.
Consider an example. John and Mary Snowbird live in Fridgidville. They like their home and wish to stay in it. Recently both retired. They have been visiting Sunnyland for some time and would like to spend the cold winter months there. They make a reservation with the Auto Express Service and John delivers there car to the railroad lot a few hundred miles from his home. He then takes the train home. A day or so later John and Mary take either a train or a plane to Sunnyland. A taxi takes them to their rented apartment--within walking distance of their children and grandchildren's home. The next day John takes local public transit to the Auto Express Station, shows them the paperwork, and drives away in his car. They will have it for their three month stay. Going home they will reverse the process.
iron mountainWhy not drive an economical small car onto an auto train, rent a comfortable place in Texas and enjoy. There are many rentals available. If one does the math there is no way haulingand buyuing your own to Texas is a cheaper alternative to and auto train trip.
Why not just drive the economical small car all the way to Texas, staying in a $100 a nite Hampton along the way? Most of these folks are retired, so time is not an issue. An extra day's travel isn't a killer.
The reason people schlep big RVs around is they can tote a lot of junk with them that makes it "home". You'd have to pack all the stuff into the car and then unload it into the rental.
Now, if you could put that RV on the train, you'd have something. The fuel savings represent a lot of value.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Texas A&M University estimated in 1999 that there were approximately 130,000 winter Texans in the McAllen metropolitan area, which encompasses a significant portion of the Valley.
A 2010 study by the University of Texas - Pan American estimated that the number of winter Texans in the Valley was approximately 75,000. The researchers found that a typical Winter Texan has the following characteristics:
• is female (58 percent),• is 70 years of age,• is married (87.2 percent),• is white (98.9 percent),• has been retired more than one year (88.1 percent),• has some college education (66.3 percent),• is in a two-person household (92 percent),• has an annual household income of $50,400,• comes from Minnesota, Iowa, Canada, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri or Wisconsin (in order of ranking).
Another UTPA professor who has studied winter Texans estimates that 134,400 winter Texans resided for sometime in the Valley last year, which was down from 144,000 the previous year. It appears that the estimated number of winter Texans is all over the place.
I live in Texas, and I spend two to four weeks in the Valley during January and February. Most of the accommodations are geared for RVs, although there are rentals for folks without RVs. I don't have an RV; I camp out in one of the motels. Because I stay for several weeks, I get a reasonable rate.
Those who tout Amtrak's Auto Train appear to overlook the fact that it lost $34.9 million before depreciation, interest, and adjustments in FY12, Or that the attempts of a private company to operate it before Amtrak took it over failed.
There is no economic justification for the taxpayers to support another money losing train. And given the numbers, it is unlikely that an investor owned operator would take it on.
Yes, I agree there would have to be good marketing research done. My comments were just "thinking out loud" ponderings. It would be interesting to know what the comparative numbers are between Texas, Arizona, and Florida as vacation choices for Midwesterners. My personal experience is only with folks that go to Texas. I have driven to Florida and Colorado pulling an RV more than once. It is a grind. And an overnight stop is needed, at least for me. The reason for Peoria was that it is centrally located to the major population centers in the Midwest. I did not take into consideration the existing rail service. I have no doubt there are other choices. My consideration was locating the start point in a place that was conducive to maximum usage. .
First, just because it was tried once and didn't work does not mean it might not work today. And yes, market research need be done to determine need and possible usage. The east coast program may or may not work in the mid west. I would venture that the 4-5 hour/400 mile drive on the east coast could be lengthened to up to an 8 hour/700 mile drive in the mid west; or maybe not. But nothing should be done nor can be done until such research is done.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
You'd have to have actual market research to see where midwest snowbirds go in winter, but I think for Chicago-area folks, Florida and Arizona dominate. And then, why Peoria? It isn't even on the rail route?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Interesting discussion about the auto train concept and its succeses and failures. I have noticed that occasionally a Chicago - Florida auto train is dicussed or a Chicago out west somewhere is considered. I think that the Chicago Florida idea has been tried and doesn't work. Chicago to somewhere out west is probably not doable either. Geography doesn't make it easy.The reasons for both of these routes not being succesful have been pointed out already. But what I don't read about is a Midwest to southern Texas auto train.
I live in the St. Louis area. I have lived in the Chicago area. I have made the observation, not scientific just anecdotal, that a significant portion of the vactioning population in the areas mentioned do not go to Florida. They go to Texas for the winter. I have noticed for many years that there seems to exist a Missouri,Illinois-Texas axis as opposed to the Northeast- Florida axis for long term winter vacationers.
I have looked at the map I wonder if anyone has given serious thought to an auto train departing from Peoria, Il and going to San Antonio, Texas. San Antonio is an easy drive to Galveston, Corpus Christi, Houston and Harligen. All are on or near the Gulf Coast. I know of folks from the Chicago area that are "snow birds" to Texas. I have had relatives and have friends that make a regular trip to Texas every winter. None of these people have any interest in Florida.
As to the economics considerations the mileage from Peoria to San Antonio is 1069 miles. The furthest major population center from Peoria is Detroit at 407 miles. In addition to Chicago and Detroit there is also Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Omaha, Memphis, and St. Louis, which are all a less than 9 hour drive to the Peoria area.
Then I asked myself why not drive to south Texas? The target population would be long term vactioners. My friends and relatives stay in Texas for at least weeks if not several months. They have purchased big trucks, 1 ton diesel with dualies or 4x4 3/4 ton, to pull very large fifth wheel RV's. So when they arrive in Texas thay have to drive around in a gas guzzling truck or haul yet a second vehicle behind the RV. The rent on an RV pad is not cheap. And of course the cost of a big luxuriopus RV is like buying a second home. Why not drive an economical small car onto an auto train, rent a comfortable place in Texas and enjoy. There are many rentals available. If one does the math there is no way haulingand buyuing your own to Texas is a cheaper alternative to and auto train trip.
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