Interesting discussion about the auto train concept and its succeses and failures. I have noticed that occasionally a Chicago - Florida auto train is dicussed or a Chicago out west somewhere is considered. I think that the Chicago Florida idea has been tried and doesn't work. Chicago to somewhere out west is probably not doable either. Geography doesn't make it easy.The reasons for both of these routes not being succesful have been pointed out already. But what I don't read about is a Midwest to southern Texas auto train.
I live in the St. Louis area. I have lived in the Chicago area. I have made the observation, not scientific just anecdotal, that a significant portion of the vactioning population in the areas mentioned do not go to Florida. They go to Texas for the winter. I have noticed for many years that there seems to exist a Missouri,Illinois-Texas axis as opposed to the Northeast- Florida axis for long term winter vacationers.
I have looked at the map I wonder if anyone has given serious thought to an auto train departing from Peoria, Il and going to San Antonio, Texas. San Antonio is an easy drive to Galveston, Corpus Christi, Houston and Harligen. All are on or near the Gulf Coast. I know of folks from the Chicago area that are "snow birds" to Texas. I have had relatives and have friends that make a regular trip to Texas every winter. None of these people have any interest in Florida.
As to the economics considerations the mileage from Peoria to San Antonio is 1069 miles. The furthest major population center from Peoria is Detroit at 407 miles. In addition to Chicago and Detroit there is also Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Omaha, Memphis, and St. Louis, which are all a less than 9 hour drive to the Peoria area.
Then I asked myself why not drive to south Texas? The target population would be long term vactioners. My friends and relatives stay in Texas for at least weeks if not several months. They have purchased big trucks, 1 ton diesel with dualies or 4x4 3/4 ton, to pull very large fifth wheel RV's. So when they arrive in Texas thay have to drive around in a gas guzzling truck or haul yet a second vehicle behind the RV. The rent on an RV pad is not cheap. And of course the cost of a big luxuriopus RV is like buying a second home. Why not drive an economical small car onto an auto train, rent a comfortable place in Texas and enjoy. There are many rentals available. If one does the math there is no way haulingand buyuing your own to Texas is a cheaper alternative to and auto train trip.
You'd have to have actual market research to see where midwest snowbirds go in winter, but I think for Chicago-area folks, Florida and Arizona dominate. And then, why Peoria? It isn't even on the rail route?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
First, just because it was tried once and didn't work does not mean it might not work today. And yes, market research need be done to determine need and possible usage. The east coast program may or may not work in the mid west. I would venture that the 4-5 hour/400 mile drive on the east coast could be lengthened to up to an 8 hour/700 mile drive in the mid west; or maybe not. But nothing should be done nor can be done until such research is done.
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Yes, I agree there would have to be good marketing research done. My comments were just "thinking out loud" ponderings. It would be interesting to know what the comparative numbers are between Texas, Arizona, and Florida as vacation choices for Midwesterners. My personal experience is only with folks that go to Texas. I have driven to Florida and Colorado pulling an RV more than once. It is a grind. And an overnight stop is needed, at least for me. The reason for Peoria was that it is centrally located to the major population centers in the Midwest. I did not take into consideration the existing rail service. I have no doubt there are other choices. My consideration was locating the start point in a place that was conducive to maximum usage. .
Texas A&M University estimated in 1999 that there were approximately 130,000 winter Texans in the McAllen metropolitan area, which encompasses a significant portion of the Valley.
A 2010 study by the University of Texas - Pan American estimated that the number of winter Texans in the Valley was approximately 75,000. The researchers found that a typical Winter Texan has the following characteristics:
• is female (58 percent),• is 70 years of age,• is married (87.2 percent),• is white (98.9 percent),• has been retired more than one year (88.1 percent),• has some college education (66.3 percent),• is in a two-person household (92 percent),• has an annual household income of $50,400,• comes from Minnesota, Iowa, Canada, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri or Wisconsin (in order of ranking).
Another UTPA professor who has studied winter Texans estimates that 134,400 winter Texans resided for sometime in the Valley last year, which was down from 144,000 the previous year. It appears that the estimated number of winter Texans is all over the place.
I live in Texas, and I spend two to four weeks in the Valley during January and February. Most of the accommodations are geared for RVs, although there are rentals for folks without RVs. I don't have an RV; I camp out in one of the motels. Because I stay for several weeks, I get a reasonable rate.
Those who tout Amtrak's Auto Train appear to overlook the fact that it lost $34.9 million before depreciation, interest, and adjustments in FY12, Or that the attempts of a private company to operate it before Amtrak took it over failed.
There is no economic justification for the taxpayers to support another money losing train. And given the numbers, it is unlikely that an investor owned operator would take it on.
iron mountainWhy not drive an economical small car onto an auto train, rent a comfortable place in Texas and enjoy. There are many rentals available. If one does the math there is no way haulingand buyuing your own to Texas is a cheaper alternative to and auto train trip.
Why not just drive the economical small car all the way to Texas, staying in a $100 a nite Hampton along the way? Most of these folks are retired, so time is not an issue. An extra day's travel isn't a killer.
The reason people schlep big RVs around is they can tote a lot of junk with them that makes it "home". You'd have to pack all the stuff into the car and then unload it into the rental.
Now, if you could put that RV on the train, you'd have something. The fuel savings represent a lot of value.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Perhaps what we need is a vehicle express service modeled after the old Railway Express Service. You bring your vehicle to the station within certain hours, it is put on a train and delivered to a certain station on schedule. You then pick it up at the other end.
This is really a freight service and perhaps it could be better accomplished by a freight train. You don't ride the same train with your vehicle although the service could be coordinated with Amtrak schedules.
Clearly and has been pointed out a lot of planning and market research would have to be done. There would be a lot of important details to make the plan work. The service would, on the one hand, tailored to meet a lot of individual needs and, on the other hand, organize a lot of individuals with very similar needs.
Consider an example. John and Mary Snowbird live in Fridgidville. They like their home and wish to stay in it. Recently both retired. They have been visiting Sunnyland for some time and would like to spend the cold winter months there. They make a reservation with the Auto Express Service and John delivers there car to the railroad lot a few hundred miles from his home. He then takes the train home. A day or so later John and Mary take either a train or a plane to Sunnyland. A taxi takes them to their rented apartment--within walking distance of their children and grandchildren's home. The next day John takes local public transit to the Auto Express Station, shows them the paperwork, and drives away in his car. They will have it for their three month stay. Going home they will reverse the process.
In most areas of the country John and Mary can contact a personal vehicle transporter and have their car taken to Arizona, Florida, Texas or wherever. Or they can contract to have it driven to their destination.
My brother-in-law, who was a New York City police officer, supplemented his income by driving cars to Florida. He used his days off to do it. He would drive straight through and return by commercial air after delivery.
I guess I would conclude why would anyone want to take the Auto Train to Florida? Florida's tourist attractions are all over the state. It is a big state. Dropping you off at Sanford leaves you hundreds of miles to drive to visit many attractions. I have some relatives that make the trip from St. Louis to Tampa in one shot. It is about 1100 miles. And they have kids. I have done so myself.
Occasionally the Chicago Florida or west conversation pops up and I am trying to figure out why an upper Midwest to Texas Auto Train is any less desirable than Florida etc. , especailly when it too is a money loser. I am being hypothetical. I realize that there would be considerable up front costs to develop another Auto Train. I realize no such service will happen.
Enjoyed the discussion,
But clearly many people do want to use Amtrak's Auto Train. It is one of Amtrack's more successful services.
I think about 260k rode Auto Train last year. So, you are right, it is attractive. During the course of my reasearch about tourism in Texas and other states I came across an interesting bit of data. The most visited state is California. Second is Florida. And third is Texas. So applying my logic to the available information and considering geography, and population it seems that a Midwest Texas Auto Train would be worth some study if Amtrak had plans to expand the concept. It seems more appealing than Midwest to Florida or Midwest to a far west destination.
John WR But clearly many people do want to use Amtrak's Auto Train. It is one of Amtrack's more successful services.
To say that it is one of Amtrak's more successful services is to say that it is not winning the race to the bottom amongst the long distance trains.
In FY12 the Auto Train lost $34.9 million before depreciation, interest, and adjustments. Its loss per passenger and seat mile was less than the long distance train averages (15.4 and 10.7 compared to 20.5 and 12.8), but that is like saying that it was not quite as ugly as the other contestants in the ugly ducklings pageant.
In FY12 ridership on the Auto Train increased 1.6%, i.e. from 254,554 to 264,096, and revenues increased 5.7%, i.e. from $68.6 million to $72.5 million. Ridership on the long distance trains increased 4.7% whilst long distance train revenues increased 7.2%. Auto Train improved its operating ratio, but it trailed the long distance train averages by significant amounts. In terms of numbers of passengers, the Auto Train stood in the middle of the pack, helped in part by the fact that it beat out two trains that run only three days a week.
One can make the case that the long distance trains meet a social need, although I don't buy it, and have long advocated getting rid of them so that train resources can be focused on short corridors. The Auto Train is a vacation special. I see no social justification for the government hoisting a vacation train, especially for a country that is $16+ trillion in debt.
I agree with you. An auto train from the mid west to Texas is appealing and deserves study. However, Amtrak seems not inclined to take on new projects.
As Sam pointed out:
"...The researchers found that a typical Winter Texan has the following characteristics: ...
• comes from Minnesota, Iowa, Canada, Michigan, Illinois, Missouri or Wisconsin (in order of ranking)..."
Minnesota & Iowa are at the other end of the I-35 corridor from Texas, so the 2 largest originating states are unlikely to go out of their way to use the proposed service. Most eastern Canadians go to Florida, and western Canadians go to Arizona so those that go to Texas evidently come from diverse locations. I live in Michigan, and while I know some that go to Texas, by far most go down I-75 (which replaced the Dixie Highway) to Florida.
While about 130,000 go to the Valley area which seems the most popular snowbird area, Florida statewide gets 85+ million visitors. I also agree that the prospects for a Texas Auto-Train are even slimmer than the failed Midwest-Florida service. But if it did happen, I would at least ride it once.
I have often wondered about a West Coast Auto Train service from Portland or Eugene to Los Angeles or San Bernadino. This would bring Canadians from B C and if promoted properly even Alberta. In addition those living in Western Montana and the panhandle of Idaho as well as Washington and Oregon residents could gather in Portland or Eugene at a West Coast Auto Train terminal have there cars loaded and be whisked away overnight to Southern California using the Valley route over Tehachapi to Los Angeles. There just like the Florida Auto-Train passengers they can drive to there snowbird destinations in Arizona and Southern California. Even though I-5 is a pretty good highway so also in I-95. In the winter there is some pretty dangerous Mountain passes and heavy rain and snow all along the route south to Redding unlike along I-95. Many passengers of the present day Auto Train travel as far south as the Florida Keys and other southern Florida destinations and even to neighboring Gulf Coast destinations. So a West Coast Auto Train would probably be about as successful as the present day East Coast Auto-Train. In any event Amtrak does not have the equipment for such additional service.
Al - in - Stockton
Sam1 There is no economic justification for the taxpayers to support another money losing train. And given the numbers, it is unlikely that an investor owned operator would take it on.
Operation of Auto Train eliminates at least 2 medically caused auto accidents on I-95 per week. You would be amazed at the number of times Auto-Train has to be met by local EMT's. If those people were driving??????
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Sam1 There is no economic justification for the taxpayers to support another money losing train. And given the numbers, it is unlikely that an investor owned operator would take it on. Operation of Auto Train eliminates at least 2 medically caused auto accidents on I-95 per week. You would be amazed at the number of times Auto-Train has to be met by local EMT's. If those people were driving??????
I would like to see the verifiable data for this claim. Where can I find the records regarding the number of times the Auto-Train has been met by local EMT's, the nature of the impairments, and the outcomes. Also, it would be important to know whether the passenger was traveling alone, thereby implying that he or she might be driving alone, or was he or she traveling with a companion that might have been driving.
A statistical correlation is not a cause and effect explanation. This is one of the cleverest justifications for a train that loses more than $30 million per year. It is akin to the argument that crops up periodically that we need the long distance trains for people who are too impaired to drive, fly, or take a bus. If this argument is valid, then shouldn't the government provide long distance train service to every community in the country that is larger than say 25,000? Why would Brownsville, TX, for example, not have train service?
Jim200If the Auto Train made a profit, this would encourage more routes. Presently Amtrak is giving each passenger an average of about $135. I propose an increased charge of $40/year for five years to accomplish a modest surplus.
There is a reason Amtrak does not charge an amount per passenger, or in the case of the Auto Train per vehicle, to cover its costs. The market will not support it. Increasing the price per passenger, i.e. higher ticket prices, probably would run-off a substantial number of passengers, which in turn could actually increase the losses, unless the marginal ticket revenues offset by at least $1 the marginal loss of revenues from passengers who were turned off by the higher prices. Only Amtrak's marketing and financial teams have a good idea of what this might look like.
Amtrak has some pretty sharp accounting, finance, and marketing people. Moreover, it has access to some of the best consulting minds in the world. If it could get more blood out of the Auto Train turnip, I am sure that it would.
Sam1 BaltACD Sam1 There is no economic justification for the taxpayers to support another money losing train. And given the numbers, it is unlikely that an investor owned operator would take it on. Operation of Auto Train eliminates at least 2 medically caused auto accidents on I-95 per week. You would be amazed at the number of times Auto-Train has to be met by local EMT's. If those people were driving?????? I would like to see the verifiable data for this claim. Where can I find the records regarding the number of times the Auto-Train has been met by local EMT's, the nature of the impairments, and the outcomes. Also, it would be important to know whether the passenger was traveling alone, thereby implying that he or she might be driving alone, or was he or she traveling with a companion that might have been driving. A statistical correlation is not a cause and effect explanation. This is one of the cleverest justifications for a train that loses more than $30 million per year. It is akin to the argument that crops up periodically that we need the long distance trains for people who are too impaired to drive, fly, or take a bus. If this argument is valid, then shouldn't the government provide long distance train service to every community in the country that is larger than say $25,000? Why would Brownsville, TX, for example, not have train service?
A statistical correlation is not a cause and effect explanation. This is one of the cleverest justifications for a train that loses more than $30 million per year. It is akin to the argument that crops up periodically that we need the long distance trains for people who are too impaired to drive, fly, or take a bus. If this argument is valid, then shouldn't the government provide long distance train service to every community in the country that is larger than say $25,000? Why would Brownsville, TX, for example, not have train service?
My job involves logging delays for trains as well as requesting the medical attention through channels from the authotities. I can also view the logs of adjoining territories - which I do from time to time when Auto-Train is late and Auto-Train does operate on my territory.
The results of the EMT's actions are germaine only to the patient(s) and the EMT's and would be covered by medical privacy laws. The carrier is notified when the patient(s) are removed from the train.
My questions about expanding Auto trains are these:
1. Who rides the East Coast version? Seniors? Families?
2. Should these be seasonal operations?
3. Is Midwest to Texas anywhere as large a market as Midwest to Florida?
4. Routes: Is there a route from CHI or CINCI to Florida that could offer something approaching overnight service (16-20 hr.)?
My retired parents used the Auto-Train. They would take their cars down to Florida in the fall, and take them back to NY in the spring. It sounded like a lot of other seniors did the same thing.
Merry Christmas, Iron Mountain - Switching a vehicle transporter out of a train and spotting to a ramp for loading and unloading would only drive a potential customer away. It is not too bad for the Automobile Trains with 40 to 70 railcars to ge spotted or assembled, but one car would be an eternity. There are numerous Auto Transporters that bring vehicles North to the Mid West and Central US and are looking for hauls back to Texas.
Most shippers of private (POV) vehicles want them picked up at the house and delivered to the house. The truckers might even turn down the freight since it is inconsistent and One vehicle doesn't pay to delay a truck.The answer might lie in drop off and pick up locations like the rental cars and could foster loads. The service would not be 2 days but patience might save money
Geez you guys are behind the times......
Union Pacific already operates a Auto-Train service to several parts of the country. They have a very large collector and distribution terminal outside both Dallas and Chicago. They just do not operate the passenger train part. They seem to be making a profit with it.......not sure why truckers can't. Anyways, you can ship your car and fly to the destination if your stay is for several weeks. I think for a stay of less than two weeks.......might not pay as your going to be waiting for your car for 6-9 business days to arrive from the shipment date.
Given that Union Pacific already has such a service......good luck competing with them on their own rails with Amtrak........pretty sure that will not work.
Here is their website:
https://www.shipcarsnow.com/residential/index.html
Psssst, I'll bet they didn't contact Sam1 to see if it was profitable before UP RR started on this business line.......
What Amtrak should do is partner with UPRR, sell the ship car and rail ticket as a package since they pickup the car at the door.
CMStPnP Psssst, I'll bet they didn't contact Sam1 to see if it was profitable before UP RR started on this business line....... What Amtrak should do is partner with UPRR, sell the ship car and rail ticket as a package since they pickup the car at the door.
And the point of this snide remark, other than to demonstrate your ignorance, is?
CMStPnP Geez you guys are behind the times...... Union Pacific already operates a Auto-Train service to several parts of the country. They have a very large collector and distribution terminal outside both Dallas and Chicago. They just do not operate the passenger train part. They seem to be making a profit with it.......not sure why truckers can't. Anyways, you can ship your car and fly to the destination if your stay is for several weeks. I think for a stay of less than two weeks.......might not pay as your going to be waiting for your car for 6-9 business days to arrive from the shipment date. Given that Union Pacific already has such a service......good luck competing with them on their own rails with Amtrak........pretty sure that will not work. Here is their website: https://www.shipcarsnow.com/residential/index.html
Snowbirds usually pack their car to the roof when they move south for the winter. The following warning at the above link makes this a non-starter:
"Remove All Personal And Household Items: DO NOT PACK ANY LUGGAGE OR SHIP ANY PERSONAL OR HOUSEHOLD ITEMS IN YOUR CAR. Per U.S. Department of Transportation regulations, it is illegal to ship your car if it contains personal or household items. Both you and the car transporter could be fined, and your vehicle could be impounded."
In addition to buying the transport service and an airline ticked, you would need to rent a car for 6-9 days waiting for your car to arrive.
Sam1 And the point of this snide remark, other than to demonstrate your ignorance, is?
......To have some fun.
CMStPnP Sam1 And the point of this snide remark, other than to demonstrate your ignorance, is? ......To have some fun.
CM
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
Mac
PNWRMNM CMStPnP Sam1 And the point of this snide remark, other than to demonstrate your ignorance, is? ......To have some fun. CM Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Mac
Having fun at another person's expense is sophomoric! As is the irrelevant, trite phrase! Both are what a mature adult would expect of a high school student!
So what is your hidden agenda?
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