If you click on the the below link you will see a picture of the platform at the Wickford Junction, RI, MBTA station and the track in from of the station. You can clearly see that the track is not is not equipped with a catenary. To the right are the two tracks of Amtrak's main line with their catenary.
Of course it is possible to electrify the line at some future time. But right now electric service is not possible.
henry6 The only ones with the answers you seek, Midlandmike, is the MBTA itself...contact them with your questions and let us know what their thinking is.
The only ones with the answers you seek, Midlandmike, is the MBTA itself...contact them with your questions and let us know what their thinking is.
On the MBTA site, you communicate with them thru a customer comment page which asks where you live and what line you ride, so for someone from Michigan who does not use the service, it did not seem an appropriate communication tool. Nevertheless, in my research into the topic, I came across a reference to Amtrak.s NEC Master Plan that assumes the Providence commuter trains will be electrified to mesh with increased frequencies, so I will assume it's likely to happen.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Looking at the MBTA schedules, I see that the Providence line is the busiest in number of trains. Just over 15% of the round trips on their commuter lines run on this line. Since the line connects two of the biggest cities in New England I would guess that the trains on average carry more passengers per train than the other lines trains, so it may represent more than 15% of the passengers. The schedule seemed to show all Providence trains went via main line, the Fairmont line had its own schedule. I think the Providence line has significant enough traffic to warrant an electric service feasibility study. For comparison, Metro North has studied electrifying the Danbury branch, even though the wires have been removed 50 years.
carnej1IIRC, the New Haven had plans to extend the electrification from New Haven to Boston and did do engineering studies but the scheme died during the Great Depression..
Along with the once proud jewel in the Morgan crown, the New York New Haven and Hartford Railroad.
Mike,
I looked and looked on the net to try to find the study of electric vs. diesel service you suggest. I couldn't find it. And I have to wonder why. I've traveled between Providence and Mansfield MA outside of the rush hour and found the trains had relatively few passengers at certain times. It seems to cry out for a couple or four MU's, ideally electric but even diesel would cost less than a whole train
I do think that with the service extension some thought should be given to diesel multiple units. DMU's were invented so short consists (such as 2 cars) might be run on lightly used routes. There is no weekend service from Wickford Junction. It might be possible to run 2 DMU's on the weekend shuttling back and forth with a change at Providence to connect with the Boston train. During the week they could be used in mid day service.
If you've live in RI since 1975, Carnej, you have a lot more current information than I do. As I said, I grew up in Warwick but left for the Army in 1959. Since then I've only been back for visits.
I had no idea there even is a Port of Quonset much less that it is so successful. Thanks for the information.
John
Thanks for your information, Don. You make some good points. Very good points.
There is a big blockade to operate MBTA electric servive to Providence. I believe that some of those trains still run on the Fairmont - Southhampton route ? I knw if there is any problem on the main from Readville to BOS south station they will detour on that route. This alternate is not electrified.
John WR Actually, Henry, I don't think the New Haven had enough money to even consider electrifying tracks around Boston. The railroad went bankrupt in 1935 and never recovered. I'm not sure but I don't think they even got out of bankruptcy during World War II. Compared to the New Haven the Eire was a complete success.
Actually, Henry, I don't think the New Haven had enough money to even consider electrifying tracks around Boston. The railroad went bankrupt in 1935 and never recovered. I'm not sure but I don't think they even got out of bankruptcy during World War II.
Compared to the New Haven the Eire was a complete success.
IIRC, the New Haven had plans to extend the electrification from New Haven to Boston and did do engineering studies but the scheme died during the Great Depression..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
John WR MidlandMikeNow that the Boston end is electrified, maybe the States of Mass. & RI would consider the costs/benefits of doing the same on their end. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, Mike. Recently Rhode Island extended the MBTA line to Wakefield in the southern part of the state. An actual extra track was build--I don't know who paid for it--to run the diesels on. Since the line now runs to Wakefield I wonder why they didn't take it down to Kingston. Kingston is an Amtrak stop. It would make a helpful connection. It would be possible to board an MBTA train at Warwick (Hills Grove) or Wakefield and change at Kingston to go to any Amtrak point south. I also wonder why they didn't provide for a station in East Greenwich. I hope I'm not boring you. I grew up in RI so I am familiar with a lot of obscure (and maybe boring) information. John
MidlandMikeNow that the Boston end is electrified, maybe the States of Mass. & RI would consider the costs/benefits of doing the same on their end.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen, Mike. Recently Rhode Island extended the MBTA line to Wakefield in the southern part of the state. An actual extra track was build--I don't know who paid for it--to run the diesels on.
Since the line now runs to Wakefield I wonder why they didn't take it down to Kingston. Kingston is an Amtrak stop. It would make a helpful connection. It would be possible to board an MBTA train at Warwick (Hills Grove) or Wakefield and change at Kingston to go to any Amtrak point south.
I also wonder why they didn't provide for a station in East Greenwich.
I hope I'm not boring you. I grew up in RI so I am familiar with a lot of obscure (and maybe boring) information.
John, you're certainly not boring me as I've lived in RI since 1976 (we arrived the day after my 10th birthday)
The third track freight line to Quonset was paid for mostly with Federal funds,it is hosting an ever increasing amount of freight tonnage with service provided by Providence & Worcester. The big thing in recent years is mullti level auto carriers to and from the Port of Quonset....
MidlandMike With already existing cat on one of their busiest lines, I think MBTA has a duty to do a cost/benefit study on electrifying their Providence line service (if they haven't done a study already) to make an informed decision. Inertia is not an excuse.
With already existing cat on one of their busiest lines, I think MBTA has a duty to do a cost/benefit study on electrifying their Providence line service (if they haven't done a study already) to make an informed decision. Inertia is not an excuse.
But if the segment under wire is less than 5% of MBTA traffic or number of trains or line mileage...then it would behoove them to use a universal push pull and probably diesel, too. If the wire was over 30 or more percent, then it might be a consideration. I don't know what the numbers are, but from what I remember and know of the services MBTA has, it would seem putting money into any electric traction, would be wasteful; they are better off expanding the diesel and push pull fleet. Cost of putting new wires up at this time is horrendous. So, they are ok as they are now.
Henry,
It is true that most MBTA lines are not electrified. However, its Providence line is. I count 16 daily inbound trains on that line although not all go the whole distance. It seems to me that to consider electric locomotives for this line deserves some consideration.
Link to the time table: http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU
12/20. I revised this to eliminate Stoughton trains as Stoughton is a branch line and not electrified. J.
MidlandMike henry6 And practically, there is very little electric track in and around Boston...none, in fact, off the Corridor. So why spend money when there are no diesel restrictions? Weren't you singing the praises of EMU vs loco hauled trains in that other thread. I would think they would at least consider electric when it comes time to buy new equipment.
henry6 And practically, there is very little electric track in and around Boston...none, in fact, off the Corridor. So why spend money when there are no diesel restrictions?
And practically, there is very little electric track in and around Boston...none, in fact, off the Corridor. So why spend money when there are no diesel restrictions?
Weren't you singing the praises of EMU vs loco hauled trains in that other thread. I would think they would at least consider electric when it comes time to buy new equipment.
But why buy EMU's when there isn't track to use it.? Too little track around Boston for MBTA to make big investment in EMU's or even electric locomotives. Unless they were to invest heavily in stringing wires, etc. and that is more than a Brahman can afford.
MARC using push pulls is pretty much ok, especially on the Corridor where there is little gradient and on all lines, long (5+miles average) distances between stations.
NH worked east out of NY with wire going to Danbury, New Canaan, and New Haven before running out of cash. Plus electrification was started under steam rule; when diesels came along, philosophy changed away from electricity.
A footnote: the Erie's Stillwell cars were designed with the idea of maybe electrifying the commuter zone.
John WRCompared to the New Haven the Eire was a complete success.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
John WR Actually, MIke, the New Haven brought a great many EMU's back in the days when they could afford to. This was the first railroad in the country to use AC for electric traction. All of the New York commuter service was electric. However, it all petered out in New Haven when they just ran out of money.
Actually, MIke, the New Haven brought a great many EMU's back in the days when they could afford to. This was the first railroad in the country to use AC for electric traction. All of the New York commuter service was electric. However, it all petered out in New Haven when they just ran out of money.
There was a pretty good advantage of electric over steam for high density lines, but the advent of diesel locomotives reduce the benefit a great deal. Electrification pretty much stopped when steam started to die.
John WR I wouldn't have thought there is that much of a price difference between electric and diesel locomotives. Is there?
I wouldn't have thought there is that much of a price difference between electric and diesel locomotives. Is there?
There shouldn't be, but there is. It's more a function of who's paying the bill than the complexity of the equipment.
A freight DE is about $2.5M
A passenger DE is $3-7M (but should be about the same as the frt locomotive...overall complexity is similar. Frt locos have more wheels, axles, motors, psgr locos have HEP)
Metrolink is buying 20 new EMD DE locos at $6.3M each (with 20 cyl Caterpilars in'em)
Amtrak's latest electric loco order is $6.6M a copy.
My take on the reasons why:
It will be REALLY interesting to see what kind of price FEC can get on passenger equipment - even if it has to be "FRA strong".
.
For comparison, note that MARC has both diesel and straight electric operations and has opted for push-pull operations with either electrics or diesels on all of its lines, no MU cars. For MBTA, going with MU cars or dual-powers for the Boston-Providence line would be an unnecessary added expense, especially since that would be the only electric line.
Since the line now runs to Wickford Junction I wonder why they didn't take it down to Kingston. Kingston is an Amtrak stop. It would make a helpful connection. It would be possible to board an MBTA train at Warwick (Hills Grove) or Wickford Junction and change at Kingston to go to any Amtrak point south.
Good thing the States of Conn. & NY bought new EMUs for the NY-NH service. Now that the Boston end is electrified, maybe the States of Mass. & RI would consider the costs/benefits of doing the same on their end.
John WR Actually, I know perfectly well that MBTA runs diesel trains but it slipped my mind. I've ridden on MBTA trains all along the Boston and Providence line.
Actually, I know perfectly well that MBTA runs diesel trains but it slipped my mind. I've ridden on MBTA trains all along the Boston and Providence line.
Over the years I've seen the question posed; "Why doesn't the MBTA electrify (or buy Dual Mode locomotives for) it's NEC line. The consensus has been one of access to large amounts of capital (from the Feds, most likely)..
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.