...is some who can negotiate with the freight RRs on an eye-to-eye basis.
From Dec Trains, "Long Distance Dreams Deferred" talking about adding feeder buses at Atlanta if a loco and coaches could be switched at Atlanta. "Though Norfolk Southern had allowed Amtrak to perform a similar move in the past, it contends freight traffic is too busy through the constricted area to allow it now."
A savvy negotiator would know there is the same or less traffic through here now than a few years ago because the GM plant in Doraville is no longer. NS may be trying to avoid a bottleneck in the future when the Crescent Corridor fleshes out, but right now???
The trick would be to find out what NS really wants and needs and then negotiate a way to get it done. This can only be done if you know as much about their operation as they do.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Yep. NS may actually want something hundreds of miles away from Atlanta and is holding Peachtree tracks as hostage...we don't know...
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henry6 Yep. NS may actually want something hundreds of miles away from Atlanta and is holding Peachtree tracks as hostage...we don't know...
A person on the "inside" of NS gives us the straight dope on what kind of horse trading "The Thoroughbred" might have in mind.
Hostage? The management of Norfolk Southern is armed with LMGs and RPGs?
They are a for-profit corporation answerable (by law!) to their shareholders, and they are not supposed to bargain for something of value in exchange for providing something of value? People in the advocacy community need to get real.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
henry6Yep. NS may actually want something hundreds of miles away from Atlanta and is holding Peachtree tracks as hostage...we don't know...
But, the person doing the negotiating at Amtrak should have a pretty good idea, if he's worth his salt.
It might be as simple as configuring some new tracks off the old Atlantic Steel lead and moving the platform or it might be something completely unrelated, like some relief in Michigan or more flexibility on the NEC. I have no idea, but that's not my job.
You're right, Oltmannd. What you are saying is that since we are not party to the negotiations and conversations, we have no idea of what is going on..
Paul Milenkovic henry6 Yep. NS may actually want something hundreds of miles away from Atlanta and is holding Peachtree tracks as hostage...we don't know... A person on the "inside" of NS gives us the straight dope on what kind of horse trading "The Thoroughbred" might have in mind. Hostage? The management of Norfolk Southern is armed with LMGs and RPGs? They are a for-profit corporation answerable (by law!) to their shareholders, and they are not supposed to bargain for something of value in exchange for providing something of value? People in the advocacy community need to get real.
The operating guys often get to chime in with their "feel" for the situation. Since guys in these positions often change, they are not always aware of what was done 5 or 10 years ago. The art of these negotiations is technical and personal. That's why you need a really savvy guy on the job.
henry6 You're right, Oltmannd. What you are saying is that since we are not party to the negotiations and conversations, we have no idea of what is going on..
There are those in the advocacy community who wouldn't recognize good advice, straight from the horse's mouth (The Thoroughbred, no less) to us, if they were bitten by it.
The suggestion, a mild, meek suggestion, was to develop an Amtrak liaison person or office, a Norfolk Southern Whisperer. I guess some people whip their horses and then call it a day in frustration when they can't get cooperation from the horse.
Not exactly. Some of us have some idea what's going on because we know the corporate culture and cast of characters, at least on one side.
But speculating is speculating, not affirmation of facts.
henry6 But speculating is speculating, not affirmation of facts.
...and this thread did not start with a news report, just an informed opinion.
And that's speculation.
oltmannd henry6 But speculating is speculating, not affirmation of facts. ...and this thread did not start with a news report, just an informed opinion.
I am signed on to the idea that Amtrak could benefit itself and benefit the travelling public it serves if it has a "Thoroughbred Whisperer" talking to Norfolk Southern along with other host railroads.
That the mere suggestion of such could provoke such a negative reaction is also suggestive of the difficulty of advancing the cause of Amtrak and passenger trains these past 40 years. I mean, if a person's ego is so thoroughly committed to the idea that Amtrak is doing everything it possibly can, the idea that the host railroads are so committed to their mercenary interests that there is no lattitude for "horse trading" with them, and well-meaning remarks from someone from within one of the host railroads gets the reception it does, all of that is discouraging with respect to the cause of passenger trains.
We all get up on soap boxes from time to time and have difficulty backing down from positions or points of view we choose to defend. But what is more important, "being right" or "winning the debate" or perhaps being receptive to differing points of view that could move Amtrak forward?
Paul Milenkovic I am signed on to the idea that Amtrak could benefit itself and benefit the travelling public it serves if it has a "Thoroughbred Whisperer" talking to Norfolk Southern along with other host railroads. That the mere suggestion of such could provoke such a negative reaction is also suggestive of the difficulty of advancing the cause of Amtrak and passenger trains these past 40 years.
That the mere suggestion of such could provoke such a negative reaction is also suggestive of the difficulty of advancing the cause of Amtrak and passenger trains these past 40 years.
Paul this suggestion has many merits. When a person looks back at the lack of co-operation from the host RRs it becomes apparent that negotiations have broke down seriously. Some of the breakdowns include ----
1. Devils lake
2. Sunset
3. CHI - STL
4. Atlanta
5. Michigan
6. Raton
7, AutoTrain length
8. CHI near terminal delays
9. PAN AM intransigence
10. ATL station rearrangement
11. Buckingham branch delays
Amtrak seems to be doing what you suggest, Paul. It has just appointed a man named Doug Varn to be General Manager of Long Distance Services. This was reported by Newswire a few days ago. You can see it here: http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2012/11/Doug%20Varn%20to%20head%20Amtraks%20long%20distance%20unit.aspx#comments
John WR Amtrak seems to be doing what you suggest, Paul.
Amtrak seems to be doing what you suggest, Paul.
I come from a world that has very little to do with actual trains, apart from getting some work done at the computer center, and looking up to see a WSOR train rumble past the picture windows.
The world I inhabit, however, makes a very big deal about attribution and giving of credit. I agreed-with and defended-against-criticism, but I didn't do any suggesting. That would have to be Don Oltmann.
Regarding Amtrak's Peachtree Station problem. Amtrak is making a problem out of an opportunity. There should be no excess capacity between Atlanta and New Orleans. Certainly not on weekends. Lots of Georgia Tech and Emory University students would love to have a weekend riding in a comfortable coach seat down to New Orleans, partying the whole night in the various jazz and dance joints, and then sleeping it off on the way back to Atlanta. New Orleans is a terrific cultural attraction, and Atlanta is a pretty stayed and conservative city with lots of youngsters. The problem is in Amtrak marketing, and somebody should tell them to get with it and start filling those seats (and rooms for daytime privacy) with the right advertizing and promotion in Atlanta, with an agent on each of the college campuses, promotional links to hotels and respectable restaurants and night spots in New Orleans, and then the problem will prove to be the opportunity it should be.
And the regular passengers who become annoyed by the boisterousness of the new young riders can be sold on-board at a bargain upgrades to dayspace in the unoccupied sleeper rooms.
If the schedule does not now have Saturday southbound and Sunday north, it should be changed to suite, and NS will be happy since that is when freight volume is least.
John WR Amtrak seems to be doing what you suggest, Paul. It has just appointed a man named Doug Varn to be General Manager of Long Distance Services. This was reported by Newswire a few days ago. You can see it here: http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2012/11/Doug%20Varn%20to%20head%20Amtraks%20long%20distance%20unit.aspx#comments
While I like the idea that Amtrak put one guy over the LD trains - and that he has a marketing and finance background - and that he has charge of the financial performance of the trains, I don't like that he is an Amtrak "lifer" and I don't like that it is a new executive position, not a consolidation of positions.
I really doubt this guy will have the "chops" to go to bat with the host RRs. Hope I'm wrong, tho'.
daveklepper Regarding Amtrak's Peachtree Station problem. Amtrak is making a problem out of an opportunity. There should be no excess capacity between Atlanta and New Orleans. Certainly not on weekends. Lots of Georgia Tech and Emory University students would love to have a weekend riding in a comfortable coach seat down to New Orleans, partying the whole night in the various jazz and dance joints, and then sleeping it off on the way back to Atlanta. New Orleans is a terrific cultural attraction, and Atlanta is a pretty stayed and conservative city with lots of youngsters. The problem is in Amtrak marketing, and somebody should tell them to get with it and start filling those seats (and rooms for daytime privacy) with the right advertizing and promotion in Atlanta, with an agent on each of the college campuses, promotional links to hotels and respectable restaurants and night spots in New Orleans, and then the problem will prove to be the opportunity it should be. And the regular passengers who become annoyed by the boisterousness of the new young riders can be sold on-board at a bargain upgrades to dayspace in the unoccupied sleeper rooms. If the schedule does not now have Saturday southbound and Sunday north, it should be changed to suite, and NS will be happy since that is when freight volume is least.
...and the 25,000 at Georgia State University, plus the thousands and thousands of young professionals who now live in Midtown and Buckhead. Also, the train serves UAB at Birmingham and the uber-gigantic school at Tuscaloosa.
I'd bet you that, of the 5M people in metro Atlanta, only 10-20% of them even know an Amtrak train comes through Atlanta.
Part of the problem is that Megabus has a daylight and overnight departure between ATL and NOL for $29 - with free WiFi. A 9 hour trip. Amtrak is $72 for a 12 hour trip.
The kids-to-college and back market could be a good one for the Crescent route. Lots of kids in metro Atlanta go to the large land grant schools and private schools along the Crescent's route. It would be very easy for these kids to use the train to go home for a weekend - except for two issues. One is the train's schedule. It is, at best, inconvenient. To really serve these markets, you'd probably need more than one train a day. The other is the first/last mile issue. The train station at some of these schools isn't well connected to the campus and/or doesn't have decent, secure parking. (Most of the students at these schools have cars on campus) At the Atlanta end, there are no suburban stops convenient to the student's homes. You'd have to leave an hour to drive from most of the major suburban areas to get to Peachtree Station in time for the train. Might as well drive the whole trip.
Thanks. They can do their homework for Monday classes on the trip down, something done only with difficulty on Megabus and impossible in an auto. My understanding is that NS freight is heaviest on Monday and Friday, lightest on Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday in that order. So Amtrak should bargain to continue 3 each way each week. but South, Saturday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, North, Sunday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Buses should supplement, South, Sunday, Monday, Thursday, and Friday, North, Saturday, Monday, Tuesday and Friday. This gives 6 days a week service in both directions without equipment and operators, engineers and Amtrak crew spending more than one overnight. On Mondays and Fridays when buses run in both directions, Monday and Friday,. operators swap where the buses meet, wherever they meet. Amtrak should offer free wifi and electrical outlets. If Megabus does it, Amtrak throughway should also do it, as well as rail equpment.
The college representatives for Amtrak should be college students.
And if a loop shuttle bus service is needed, it is long overdue anyway.
daveklepper Thanks. They can do their homework for Monday classes on the trip down, something done only with difficulty on Megabus and impossible in an auto.
Thanks. They can do their homework for Monday classes on the trip down, something done only with difficulty on Megabus and impossible in an auto.
You are serious about this? I think I know a little bit about this, having done heavy amounts of homework in engineering undergrad and grad school, being currently involved in the inflicting of such homework assignments.
The sort of student who would like to make a weekend trip from boring Atlanta to exciting New Orleans, to avail themselves of the night life and entertainment not available elsewhere, will be eager to do homework on the ride down and the ride back? And the reason we need to subsidize Amtrak is that the seats on Megabus are too tight to allow doing any meaningful homework, say with a laptop and the free WiFi they claim to offer?
And Amtrak offers that much more space per passenger that students can spread out with their textbooks and notebooks and everyone on the train can sit around a table with their friends and exchange homework answers as they do at the library or when they commandeer classrooms for study space after hours?
There are reasons to support passenger trains. I guess my perspective is when advocates advance weak reasons, it can undermine rather than advance the cause of trains. "You mean the reason we need to pay for a train to New Orleans is so students can party on the weekend or Spring Break and then study on the train?" Such reasoning appears to be grasping to come up with excuses (did I tell you in my line of work, I am very familiar with excuses?) to pay for a train. It weakens the overall advocacy case.
I think Dave may be on to something, Paul.
According to the US Travel Association Generation Y, which is people born after 1980, take about 25 per cent of all trips each year. 12 per cent are for pleasure and 13 per cent are for business. (These are quite young people and I don't know how "business" is defined. However, that is what the statistic says.) Clearly, this is a significant market for any kind of transportation enterprise including Amtrak. Certainly it makes sense for Amtrak to market train travel to this group.
I don't know what these young people do while they are traveling. However, for several months I reverse commuted between Newark and Trenton NJ. There were not a lot of people on those trains but of the young people I did see a fair number of them were engaged on intellectual pursuits--reading and some were writing. A lot were using laptops; I did not look over their shoulders so I don't know what they were looking at but they were pretty intent. Frankly, it is very easy to cynically dismiss individual activities with vague generalities. It may also be a mistake.
Here is a link to the source of the statistics:
http://www.ustravel.org/news/press-kit/travel-facts-and-statistics
MY face is very red. The Crescent is currently an every-day train all the way to NO. and there is no need for any buses or change in schedule to implement my idea. I had a chance to look at the timetable, and realized I was locked in some distant time past when the train did run only three times a week south of Atlanta. The idea is that the "Night in New Orleans" concept be a separate marketing and ticketing affair for college students. Tickets and brochure and discount coupons would be printed out from the student-agent's on-campus computer. Ticket prices would be somewhare between the regular fare and the Megabus fare, but would include discount coupons for New Orleans attractions. The brochure would cover the trains' schedules, all the usual information Amtrak wishes to provide its riders, a map of downtown NO and the French Quarter with music, dance, and other attractions located, also transit stops and routes, and recommended hotels for those who do not want to party all-night. Even a list and locations of churches (maybe even Synagogues with a weekday Shachrit minion if any) within walking distance of the Union Station that have services starting at 6AM or earlier for those who wish to end their partying with some religion before boarding the train back to Birmingham or Atlanta.
Paul, my idea is to fill empty seats and so REDUCE the subsidy. Amtrak does this sort of thing by marketing in Washington and Baltimore theatre evenings in NYC.
And when the youngsters leave school, the good impression they have of Amtrak will allow them to consider corridor business trips when appropriate and long distance trains for vacations.
Possibly Paul has a mistaken impression of the Jazz and Blues halls and dance halls of New Orleans, equating them with the "Red Light District" of some cities. Sure, there are establishments like that, but most are clean places without drugs or sex or overuse of alcochol, and these are the ones that should be included in the Amtrak brochure issued with the ticket. Along with Preservation Hall.
In my younger days (the original Canal Street streetcar line was still running) i spent a night like that and did not get drunk or sick and appreciated a part of American culture.
New Orleans is a unique city.
Correspondingly, Atlanta is not some dull, lifeless city. There are many things to do there for entertainment, whether partying or more refined cultural events.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Correspondingly, Atlanta is not some dull, lifeless city. There are many things to do there for entertainment, whether partying or more refined cultural events.
Atlanta is not terrible, but it's hardly fun-city. It's very generic and not particularly tourist friendly - particularly if you don't have a car.
daveklepper Possibly Paul has a mistaken impression of the Jazz and Blues halls and dance halls of New Orleans, equating them with the "Red Light District" of some cities.
Possibly Paul has a mistaken impression of the Jazz and Blues halls and dance halls of New Orleans, equating them with the "Red Light District" of some cities.
Maybe I have a mistaken impression of the New Orleans Mardi Gras from the Madison, Wisconsin "Freakfest" (Halloween celebrations for grown ups or at least "kids" old enough to hold responsible) and "Mifflin Street Block Party" events.
I think Dave has a good point about what Amtrak does and doesn't do to try to put people into empty seats. There is nearly zero visibility for the Crescent in Atlanta. Hardly anybody even knows it exists. Megabus, on the other hand, has pretty good visibility, good word of mouth "marketing" and a good reputation with the younger crowd.
It all goes back to the basics.
North Virginia - Highlands and Bucktown and Midtown were pretty decent areas. But then I lived there 30 years ago.
Perhaps add a #5, something Megabus and other operators can do: Speed and flexibility. Figure out potential markets quickly (not exactly astrophysics) and quickly start services and adjust accordingly. if it isn't working, drop it. Amtrak is about as slow as molasses in the UP in doing that.
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