The Pennsylvania Railroads fleet of East/West passenger trains used to bypass 30th St Station in Phila. to and from Chicago using the "Pittsburgh Subway". The only stop in Phila. was at North Phila. station; was this done to avoid having to turn the train? And when was this discontinued?
Not turn the train but not make a back up move in and out of 30th St. or reversing the train...Amtrak did reverse trains but PRR and PC avoided it if possible. So, probably North Philadelphia stopped intercity stops at the onset of Amtrak or soon thereafter. Today, only SEPTA stops there. Others can tell us about how Keystone trains to Harrisburg work...
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
According to the current Amtrak timetable. four Amtrak trains stop at North Philadelphia. Three Keystones (649, 653, & 655) stop to discharge passengers on their way from New York to Harrisburg; Northeast Regional 110 stops on its way from Washington to New York, and Keystone 640 stops on its way from Harrisburg to New York.
Since the power for the Pennsylvanian is changed at 30th Street and not in Harrisburg, the train comes into 30th Street under one type of power, which is cut off, and leaves under the other type, which is put on what had been the rear of the train. Someone who is familiar with the operation will have to tell us how the Keystone power is handled, but it seems to me that the engine would be run around the train at 30th Street (just as the engine was run around the San Francisco/California Zephyr when the train was operated into Cheyenne; the power was changed in Denver at that time, so it was not run around the train in Denver, even though the train ran backwards between Denver and Cheyenne; now the whole train is turned in Denver, both eastbound and westbound)
Johnny
carl9305 The Pennsylvania Railroads fleet of East/West passenger trains used to bypass 30th St Station in Phila. to and from Chicago using the "Pittsburgh Subway". The only stop in Phila. was at North Phila. station; was this done to avoid having to turn the train? And when was this discontinued?
North Philadelphia was the principal stop in Philadelphia for most of the east/west fleet. Had they gone into 30th Street, presumably they would have had to back out or take the engine off the front of the train and put another one on the back, which amongst other things would mean that the coach passengers would have to ride backwards to New York. This is how Amtrak handles the Pennsylvanian. The Keystones are push/pull configurations, so no engine switch is required at 30th Street, which parenthetically is one of the most beautiful railroad stations in America.
The PRR's east/west trains to New York were competing with the New York Central's trains to and from Gotham. The last thing PRR management would have wanted was a backing operation in Philadelphia, thereby increasing the time to get to New York or points west of Philadelphia.
A quick check of Amtrak's service from North Philadelphia to New York and return shows that Amtrak numbers 110 and 640 stop there in the morning to pick-up passengers for New York as well as intermediate stations. In the afternoon three southbound trains (Numbers 649, 653, and 655) stop at North Philadelphia to discharge passengers and pick up passengers for points west of 30th Street. Number 110 is a Northeast Regional; the other trains are Keystone services. Why a NE Regional stops there in the morning without a corresponding afternoon NE Regional train is unknown.
According to the 1953 PRR System Timetable The Philadelphia Night Express from Pittsburgh terminated at 30th Street, and the Pittsburgh Night Express began its run to Pittsburgh from 30th Street. These two trains appear to have been scheduled for overnight business travelers between Pennsylvania's two largest cities.
According to the 1957 PRR System Timetable, in addition to the Philadelphia Night Express, six other east/west trains began their runs from or terminated them at 30th Street, with connections from or to New York. Included in these were The Duquesne, The Liberty Limited/Red Arrow, and The Admiral.
At the dawn of Amtrak in 1971, the Broadway and National Limited still skipped 30th St. and used the connection at Zoo. If you wanted to go to Center City, the best option was to bail off at Paoli and take SEPTA the rest of the way in.
Somewhere in the early 80s, Amtrak started running the Washington section of the Broadway through 30th St. (up the NEC from Perryville - avoiding Conrail's Port road - which was having the catenary removed.) Somewhere in the early 90s, the Washington section was killed (at the same time the Capitol Limited was put back on?) and the Broadway started calling on 30th St. It ran "backward" to and from NYP.
When 30th St was built, there were provisions to put a turning loop on the SE side of the station. In fact a tunnel w/o tracks for this can be seen when you arrive from the south on a suburban train to the upper level of 30th St. If it was completed, the E-W trains could arrive at 30th St., depart heading south, loop around on the other side of the Post Office and connect into the upper level approach (about where the University SEPTA station is, I think) and then continue west through the tunnel, departing the way the Mainline Suburban trains do.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Don, in 1978, I rode the Broadway from Chicago to Washington--and the Washington cars were split off at Harrisburg and went through 30th Street in Philadelphia whereas the New York cars used the Pittsburgh Subway.
In 1984, I rode the Broadway from Trenton to Chicago, stopping at 30th Street, and the Capitol Limited cars were added in Pittsburgh, making it possible to ride in a dome the rest of the way (I did get some sleep in my coach seat).
The Capitol Limited was a separate train in 1987, when I rode it round trip Chicago-Washington.
That is interesting about the proposed loop at 30th Street; apparently the decision was that even that would add too much time in compettion with the NYC.
In July of 1971, I rode from Washington, via the Port Road, to Jefferson City on what Amtrak called the Spirit of St. Louis (according to the original Amtrak timetable; I still have one copy of it). The train left Washington with cars for Chicago as well as for Kansas City; in Harrisburg cars for St. Louis that came from New York on the Broadway Limited were added to the Spirit of St. Louis, and the cars from Washington to Chicago were added to the Broadway. I am not sure as to when the name of the Kansas City train was changed to National Limited.
I had a roomette from Washington to St. Louis in the 10-6 Pacific Castle. The following year, my fianceé came to visit me, riding the Floridian from Chicago to Birmingham. I took the northbound Floridian up to Decatur, ate lunch, and boarded the southbound Floridian (surprising her when I appeared in her roomette door)--and we sat together, in Pacific Castle. Seventeen years later, we had a bedroom in Pacific Castle from Washington to Birmingham.
Thanks for your help in clearing up my question. So it seems that Amtrak continued skipping 30th St at least until some time in the 80's. I rode the Broadway from Phila. (30th St) to Pittsburgh and back in 1988. I remember there was a change from electric to diesel before leaving 30th St; on the return, the train changed back to electrics at 30th St before proceeding to NY.
I wonder if that loop is rtechnically feasible now. If it could be done at all, it really would make alot of sense. They really should've built it back when provisions were first put in,
About present day ops in Philadelphia, somebody please get my back on this one, but... The last time I was over there (about 5 years ago) the Keystones were running in push mode with electric power (a.k.a. a "motor") from Harrisburg into Philadelphia 30th Street Station. So when they then reversed direction at 30th St. for the rest of the run to New York, there was no need to move the power from one end to the other. The engine was already where it needed to be. However, the Pennsylvanian, #42, Pittsburgh - NYC, runs from Pgh to Philly under diesel power. As the diesel cuts off at 30th St. Station, a motor goes on the other end of the consist and then pulls it to New York. It's the reverse for #43, NYC to Pgh.
Others have explained well how the PRR avoided a backing move and saved time by having trains to NYC from Harrisburg, Pittsburgh and points west avoid 30th St. and call only at North Philadelphia, via the "Pgh subway." Had they called at 30th St. as well, you can imagine the traffic jams had they used Zoo Interlocking to wye around!
I rode the Broadway under Amtrak many times before it started calling at 30th Street, and rode the PRR through the "New York - Pittsburgh Subway" many times before Amtrak, often watchingt the engine change at Harrisburg. I once boarded the westbound General (after failing to get the duplex or romette on the Broadway) at North Philadelphia. Mostly, thought, I traveled from NYC.
You are correct. Keystones are push-pull. The cab cars are converted/demotored (original) Metroliner cars.
Dave Phelps
Are not some also demotored SPV's? The "seldom propelled vehicle" successor to the Budd RDC, some bought by Metro North, some by Amtrak, and some by ConnDot?
daveklepper Are not some also demotored SPV's? The "seldom propelled vehicle" successor to the Budd RDC, some bought by Metro North, some by Amtrak, and some by ConnDot?
All of Amtrak's cab cars are demotored Metroliners.
I don't believe any SPV's live. They were scrapped in fear they might come back to live and haunt Amtrak and MNRR!
Usual operation for Keystone NY - Harrisburg trains is a cab car on one end and an electric locomotive on the other end, with no change of power at 30th Street. The Pennsylvanian has an electric from NY to Philly, and it is cut off at the south end, while the diesels couple up on the north to pull the train west without engine change at Harrisburg.
A few SPV's were converted into straight coaches, or their shells were used as replacements for wreck-damaged Amfleet coach shells.
Hi, again. Reflecting a bit more on the thread, especially as to the proposed turning loop alternate that is mentioned, it's interesting to speculate on the possibilities that might have existed 70 or more years ago had the present tunnel connection between the former Reading Terminal and Suburban Station existed back then using the present-day east-west-facing former Reading access instead of the former Reading Terminal northward-facing stub tracks. What if there had existed an enlarged version of today's SEPTA subterranean stop at that location, and if both old Broad Street and Reading Terminal had been replaced by a new, beautiful Center-City above-ground Philadelphia Union Station, serving both the Reading and PRR services? It would have been accessed from the north as it is today by SEPTA, but with the added trackage needed to tie the former PRR and Reading lines together near where they crossed in No. Phila. PRR traffic to/from the north would have used this combined trackage.
The PRR would have run to the south and west as SEPTA does today, westward out of the present Suburban Station trackage and on present SEPTA routes in those directions. There would have been no need to build 30th Street, and Zoo would probably have existed for freight interlocking purposes only, without need for the Pittsburgh Subway or the river line. PRR east-west trains would have had an easy through shot with no reverse moves and minimal extra time to cover the slightly longer move through Philly Center City, and Philly patrons would not have had to go up to No. Phila. to access the Blue Ribon fleet. Main advantage today would have been the operational ease of not having the No. Phila. stop, which was not nearly as dangerous a locale in PRR Blue Ribbon days as it is today. But the biggest obstacle that I see would have been to construct the massive underground layout that would have been needed for both the PRR's and Reading's east-west, north-south, and suburban servics. NYP had, and I believe still has, some 21 or so tracks for PRR/LIRR services, and PRR/Reading Philadelphia traffic may have well been as dense.
I don't believe any were bought by Amtrak, ConnDot bought some for New Haven/Hartford service and leased them to Amtrak.
daveklepper A few SPV's were converted into straight coaches, or their shells were used as replacements for wreck-damaged Amfleet coach shells.
henry6 I don't believe any SPV's live. They were scrapped in fear they might come back to live and haunt Amtrak and MNRR!
As of a couple of years ago the former FRA T10 was still active as a track geometry car for Caltrains.
Buslist henry6 I don't believe any SPV's live. They were scrapped in fear they might come back to live and haunt Amtrak and MNRR! As of a couple of years ago the former FRA T10 was still active as a track geometry car for Caltrains.
From what I understood from a CalTrain employee, it was not used it as a self-powered vehicle, but only behind a locomotive (but I could be wrong, since I only saw it in the old 7th Street yard, not on the road).
By the way, does anyone have any insigts as to why the SPV was such a dud, when the RDCs (built by the same manufacturer!) was such a great product?
DragomanBy the way, does anyone have any insights as to why the SPV was such a dud, when the RDCs (built by the same manufacturer!) was such a great product?
We've had threads with this specific topic recently.
Essentially longer, heavier, designed for much higher speed ... by automotive engineers. All the physical systems (and there were comparatively many compared to RDCs) run off unreliable APUs to save traction horsepower. Needed to have all wheels driven, but that put them in a different weight class for union operation, so all wheels weren't driven leading to SERIOUS power control issues. Etc.
Wizlish Dragoman By the way, does anyone have any insights as to why the SPV was such a dud, when the RDCs (built by the same manufacturer!) was such a great product? We've had threads with this specific topic recently. Essentially longer, heavier, designed for much higher speed ... by automotive engineers. All the physical systems (and there were comparatively many compared to RDCs) run off unreliable APUs to save traction horsepower. Needed to have all wheels driven, but that put them in a different weight class for union operation, so all wheels weren't driven leading to SERIOUS power control issues. Etc.
Dragoman By the way, does anyone have any insights as to why the SPV was such a dud, when the RDCs (built by the same manufacturer!) was such a great product?
A buddy of mine, who worked with them on MetroNorth, told me that "Budd forgot everything it knew about RDCs" when designing the SPV2000. Apparently, it was hard to get at things to service them.
EasternLines What if there had existed an enlarged version of today's SEPTA subterranean stop at that location,
I read somewhere that, at one time, the PRR was thinking of extending the Suburban Station tunnel eastward under the Delaware and connecting to the Broadway Station in Camden.
oltmannd Wizlish Dragoman By the way, does anyone have any insights as to why the SPV was such a dud, when the RDCs (built by the same manufacturer!) was such a great product? We've had threads with this specific topic recently. Essentially longer, heavier, designed for much higher speed ... by automotive engineers. All the physical systems (and there were comparatively many compared to RDCs) run off unreliable APUs to save traction horsepower. Needed to have all wheels driven, but that put them in a different weight class for union operation, so all wheels weren't driven leading to SERIOUS power control issues. Etc. A buddy of mine, who worked with them on MetroNorth, told me that "Budd forgot everything it knew about RDCs" when designing the SPV2000. Apparently, it was hard to get at things to service them.
Thank you both. I seem to have missed those earlier threads.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.