BaltACD I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm]
I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm]
Did you see where NC is doing it with vending machines on the Piedmonts? Why not on NY to Albany? Or NY to Phila to Harrisburg?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
NEVER EFFICIENT! MY GOD YOU DON"T KNOW HOW EFFICIENT IT WAS. Profitiable, no! Efficient, most certainly. It had to be efficient because you only had one chance to board all the stuff you needed for preaparing foods. It had to be efficient because the commissary was efficient in having what was needed for every train, every dining car. It had to be efficient becuse the kitchen was no bigger than many of today's closets. It had to be efficient because preparing food at almost 100 miles per hour or 10 miles per hour through swtiches or along bad track had to be as perfect as the chefs at the Waldorf Astoria would be doing. And it was kept clean, too. Efficient it had to be in many, many ways and was. Profitable, we have killed that line here after these many posts here and at other times.
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It would be useful if the hearing or some other device broke down revenue and expense for food service (sic!) by LD, non-NEC corridor and short haul, Acela, and other NEC services. And then, net loss per passenger in those different domains.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
oltmannd BaltACD: I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm] Did you see where NC is doing it with vending machines on the Piedmonts? Why not on NY to Albany? Or NY to Phila to Harrisburg?
BaltACD: I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm]
It was tried...even on the NY -Albany runs, in fact...and was a miserable failure. Runnin trains is one thing, as I've often said, but providing service is another: the service has to be designed, operated, convienient, consiisitant, priced, and made attractive for a certain clientel. Vending machine food while coasting along the Hudson doesn't make it...gotta be better than a frozen sandwich in cellephane nuked to room temperature. God I don't eat that at home, why would I want to pay to have something like that while riding a train? Cunard Lines said it best in their cross Atlantic advertising years ago: getting there is half the fun. If you don't operate mode of transportation, even commuter somewhat, that provides a pleasant experience all the way around for your customer...then you should work in a warehouse someplace!
henry6: Of course, there are some folks who confound efficiency with profitability.
henry6 oltmannd: BaltACD: I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm] Did you see where NC is doing it with vending machines on the Piedmonts? Why not on NY to Albany? Or NY to Phila to Harrisburg? It was tried...even on the NY -Albany runs, in fact...and was a miserable failure. Runnin trains is one thing, as I've often said, but providing service is another: the service has to be designed, operated, convienient, consiisitant, priced, and made attractive for a certain clientel. Vending machine food while coasting along the Hudson doesn't make it...gotta be better than a frozen sandwich in cellephane nuked to room temperature. God I don't eat that at home, why would I want to pay to have something like that while riding a train? Cunard Lines said it best in their cross Atlantic advertising years ago: getting there is half the fun. If you don't operate mode of transportation, even commuter somewhat, that provides a pleasant experience all the way around for your customer...then you should work in a warehouse someplace!
oltmannd: BaltACD: I guess it is time for Amtrak to follow the airline model - throw a half ounce bag of peanuts at their patrons and give them 4 ounces of a beverage and be done with it. They won't make money off of it but the will lose less on the 'food service'. [sarcasm] You can really build a high class clientele with such 'service'.[/sarcasm] Did you see where NC is doing it with vending machines on the Piedmonts? Why not on NY to Albany? Or NY to Phila to Harrisburg?
But it is working on the Piedmonts....
First, is it really? Or are people just accepting it. And compare markets...Albany to NYC vs a ride throught NC? Totally different cientel.
From the airport financials (link in your linked article) for 2011, it looks like the airport expenses + depreciation exceed revenue. What that actually means, i will leave to the accountants.
henry6 First, is it really? Or are people just accepting it. And compare markets...Albany to NYC vs a ride throught NC? Totally different cientel.
Pretty much the same clientele, I think. A mixture of pleasure travelers, state workers, college students and business travelers. Train connects NC's largest city with it's capitol region. Is it working? Ridership is growing. They are adding trains.
Is std Amtrak cafe food "really working" or are people just accepting it? There is not a single item on the normal cafe car menu that couldn't come out of a vending machine (except beer and wine).
Comparison:
Downeaster, from Train's news wire:
"Patricia Quinn, executive director of the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority, said that food service was, “a key reason why people ride the Downeaster. We have one of the highest customer satisfaction scores on the Amtrak system,” she added. Quinn went on to describe how food service on the Boston-Portland corridor has been outsourced from its beginning in 2001 to a local provider, which hires café car personnel and works closely with the Authority “to react in a nimble fashion in improving the service.” The Downeaster food service loses almost $200,000 a year on revenues of $575,000."
Amtrak overall 2011:
Revenue: $121M
Loss: $84M
Recovery rate:
Downeaster: 74%
Amtrak overall: 59%
Contrast:
"Quinn went on to describe how food service on the Boston-Portland corridor has been outsourced from its beginning in 2001 to a local provider, which hires café car personnel and works closely with the Authority “to react in a nimble fashion in improving the service.”
with
"Bateman, a 35-year veteran, also added perspective (and echoed Rep. Brown’s comments) by asserting that Amtrak on board service employees can’t be compared with restaurant workers. “We go through mandatory training in order to respond to emergencies, know the configuration of all equipment, and may be on our feet for up to 20 hours a day on the Northeast Corridor. It’s even worse on long distance routes, which require three or four 18-hour days. Our jobs are more than just passing out a Pepsi and a burger.”
Some comments
The job is serving food. Is Amtrak making the job overly complicated? (or has continued a tradition when there are there are better ways to do it) Why in the world is an employee working a 20 hour shift on the NEC? Exactly how wonder is the customer experience dealing with an employee who's been up 20 hours?
Would hope the Downeaster employees get some safety training.
I still think Amtrak needs to think seriously about why they have service employees live on the LD trains. Why not rotate them off with the transportation employees?
My overall point here is that this just another example of where Amtrak fails at following the three simple rules for success:
1. Know what you are doing.
They are selling food to passengers - captive ones, at that. It's not about providing jobs, following tradition, just getting through the day, protecting an internal fiefdom or social justice.
2. Pay attention.
What do people want? What are they willing to pay? How can I make tomorrow a better experience for the passenger than today? What are other food service companies doing? Am I getting any better?
3. Show up.
Be ready to go every day, on time. You can't do the job if you are not there or have checked out mentally. Working 18-20 hour days is probably a bad idea if you want top-notch customer service.
I noticed in the Trains Newswire article that Amtrak used to split the food service responsibility between marketing and operations. Now operations has it all. Wow. This can't be good.
oltmannd henry6: First, is it really? Or are people just accepting it. And compare markets...Albany to NYC vs a ride throught NC? Totally different cientel. Pretty much the same clientele, I think. A mixture of pleasure travelers, state workers, college students and business travelers. Train connects NC's largest city with it's capitol region. Is it working? Ridership is growing. They are adding trains. Is std Amtrak cafe food "really working" or are people just accepting it? There is not a single item on the normal cafe car menu that couldn't come out of a vending machine (except beer and wine).
henry6: First, is it really? Or are people just accepting it. And compare markets...Albany to NYC vs a ride throught NC? Totally different cientel.
But there are major differences in the markets. Income, culture, tastes, lifestyles for example. These all effect the tastes, needs, etc., of what they expect from any given service.. And anything and everything can be vended...but it is like Coca Cola in the original 6 oz bottle...tasted great and no other Coke container has every matched it despite being put in the container from the same batch on the same machine! Beyond that, ambiance has a lot to do with eating. Plastic spoons,cups and plates on your lap as opposed to bing on a cloth coverd table with real silverware and even ceramic plates and a comfortable chair to sit on. A million dollar stake will be percieved as a hamburger if not served properly. There is so much more to feeding in public than just the food, it is often an adventure, a special occasion, a perception so much different than even the home dinner. Lunch can be so much more informal for most, but dinner has to be something special...that's why you go out to dinner. So, threfore, you compare any restaurant to a moveing train's restaurant and you've got to measure up.
oltmannd The job is serving food. Is Amtrak making the job overly complicated? (or has continued a tradition when there are there are better ways to do it) Why in the world is an employee working a 20 hour shift on the NEC? Exactly how wonder is the customer experience dealing with an employee who's been up 20 hours? Would hope the Downeaster employees get some safety training. I still think Amtrak needs to think seriously about why they have service employees live on the LD trains. Why not rotate them off with the transportation employees?
Railroad practices and jobs are steeped in traditions of old rail lines and union rules compounded by contemporary thinking in business. Then there is Amtrak which is a railroad in some places and a train provider in others. It doesn't run one railroad but runs sevreal different railroads each of the owned and operated segments are different than others in heritage and makeup; then there are lines where it rents track and time from a host railroad which is a completely different operation than any of the owned and operated segments. Some still think of the Pullman standards of employee assignments for such things as food and on train services. Others don't think at all not realizing that punching a time card at 8AM to go to work and at 4PM to go home is not the railroad way of working.
But this topic of food...or sleeping car space, for that matter...as a cost factor rather than service factor has been talked about and talked about. Bottom liners would get rid of it, old line business people look at it as the cost of doing business. Bottom liners deduct the cost of the service, old line business man add it as a value of service. These and other factors have been going round robbin since before Amtrak. We are not going to change peoples' minds here, least of all each others' apparently. If you don't understand the value of service then cost is everythng. If you believe that cost is everything, then you want to withold the service. But these same arguements and philosophies clash in the real world. So how far, or how much further, do we want to carry on this conversation?
oltmannd 1. Know what you are doing. 2. Pay attention. What do people want? What are they willing to pay? How can I make tomorrow a better experience for the passenger than today? What are other food service companies doing? Am I getting any better?
Don is correct especially # 2.
some of the most sucessful restaurants are thse that serve only one or two meal times. unfortunately AMTRAK does not have that luxury.
downeaster and NC have an advantage by only having one type of passenger. also the trip at most is only 3;10 in NC which will be reduced in the future. downeaster 2;30 however riders to rockland brunswick starting this fall and a future extension to portland augusta may change the dynamic ?
persons who have to start out early may not have had time for breakfast. Acela riders especially but all NEC riders will want something if just a large cup of coffee.
mid day NEC riders may want a light lunch before going to other work assignments
late day a supper to substitute for a meal at home.
now LD trains are an entirely different matter. one example is the 2 meal service on auto train on a shorter LD train ride. an analysis of how meal service on this train could be enlightning ?
the demands on the longer distance all day trains are entirely different -- ( carolinian [ note this is a NC operation that does not have to follow the short distance service of the piedmonts ]. palmetto, maple leaf, pennsylvanian, some cascades riders, & maybe michigan services that may change with the decreased travel times in the future. All these riders wil probably need at least one substantial meal from the cafe car.
now the longer distance riders have different needs. since sleeper riders are paid for -- the coach passenger sales on these trains need to analysis for those who travel for at least 2 nights.
I cannot iimagine that any one person running the dinning service of AMTRAK can possibly meet the needs of this diverse clientel ?
to complicate the LD service more is the person ( many ) who travel just shorter distances. the top ten city pairs on each LD train may help some ?
henry6 If you don't understand the value of service then cost is everythng. If you believe that cost is everything, then you want to withold the service. But these same arguements and philosophies clash in the real world.
If you don't understand the value of service then cost is everythng. If you believe that cost is everything, then you want to withold the service. But these same arguements and philosophies clash in the real world.
It's BOTH. In fact, the definition of profit (or loss) is the difference between the value of the service and the cost to provide it.
You can work both sides of the equation at the same time. Amtrak's web site for booking travel is a good example. You can do it at your own pace, in your own time and explore all the options, any time you want. No phone call, no "hold music", no "Oh, I should have asked about XYZ" right after you hang up. Amtrak doesn't need a whole army of call center agents, just enough to handle the exceptions. You get better service - they get lower costs. E-ticketing is another example.
It's a bit harder with "physical world" stuff, but I say, if food service isn't your core competency, turn it over to someone else and let them put their skills to work.
Last June Amtrak's Inspector General, Ted Alves, investigated the food service issue. In his report over and over again one acronym jumps out: LSA for Lead Service Attendant. He reports the source of the fraud problem is rooted in incorrect reports LSA's fill out and the problem is so widespread he is unable to draw any conclusions based on actual facts. He estimates that 3 to 7 per cent of losses occur because that is the figure generally used by resturants. He did make a number of recommendations. Based on the fact that these practices continue it appears that Amtrak has not really acted on the recommendations. It is worth pointing out that the problem exists on long distance trains.
Here is a link to OIG Alves' report: http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/on-board_food_and_beverage_6_23_11.pdf
John WR Last June Amtrak's Inspector General, Ted Alves, investigated the food service issue. In his report over and over again one acronym jumps out: LSA for Lead Service Attendant. He reports the source of the fraud problem is rooted in incorrect reports LSA's fill out and the problem is so widespread he is unable to draw any conclusions based on actual facts. He estimates that 3 to 7 per cent of losses occur because that is the figure generally used by resturants. He did make a number of recommendations. Based on the fact that these practices continue it appears that Amtrak has not really acted on the recommendations. It is worth pointing out that the problem exists on long distance trains. Here is a link to OIG Alves' report: http://www.amtrakoig.gov/sites/default/files/reports/on-board_food_and_beverage_6_23_11.pdf
So, the LSA is incompetent - he doesn't know how to do the paperwork that's part of his job. Internal controls of any sort here?
But Don, service isn't just answereing the phone or having a web site that is easy to use. It is on time performance, clean train, friendly and qualified train staff, comfortable seats or beds, available quality food, safety, speed, reliability, price, convenient schedules both departing and arriving, all the mint on the pillow type stuff. In government, non business politicians who expect that kind of service when they travel have no idea how the business provides it. Businessmen in politics pick apart the cost of each feature, and unless they are in the hospitality business, they see it as an expense rather than a value added which attracts and holds customers. The whole enchelada is what service is all about, not just one thing or, in this case, just the running of a train on a track.
Moderator - Clean up on aisle 9 needed...
A friendly reminder to all to keep things Civil and On-Topic. It's OK to disagree with someone but let's back-off the keyboards a bit with attacks on each other and Acronyms that we all know shouldn't be used here...
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Stourbridge Lion Moderator - Clean up on aisle 9 needed... A friendly reminder to all to keep things Civil and On-Topic. It's OK to disagree with someone but let's back-off the keyboards a bit with attacks on each other and Acronyms that we all know shouldn't be used here...
It appears that the inappropriate acronyms have been removed. Good! You are absolutely correct. Participants should recognize that we tend to see the world differently. If people don't like the fact that someone has a different view, they should not participate in these forums.
With all the talk about "costs", everyone is forgetting that food and beverage service is what distinguishes Amtrak from other modes of transport.
That said, food and beverage service (F&B) is a cost of doing business. Cost cutting is false economy. F&B provision needs to be in proportion to the length of the trip. Short haul regional trains can have a McDonalds or Starbucks cafe car. When you get to an all-day trip, like Washington DC - Charleston SC, you need to add some "better" dinner entrees since many passengers want something more substantial than a burger or chicken nuggets for dinner.
For overnight trips you have to add a dining car that serves cooked to order meals (similar to Applebees or Red Lobster), plus the cafe car. The diner and cafe cars serve different groups of passengers. The diner serves people who want full meals; the cafe car serves people who want light meals or fast food.
wonder if using gate catering is not a good idea. they provide a declining q uality of food to the airlines. as a train rider I don't want airline food /??
Does anyone have a link as to what Amtraks food cost per passenger? I have a feeling that it is far more than the airlines, and wonder if it should be.
Here is a link to what the airlines spend on food per passenger.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/crankyflier/4777844410/in/photostream/
An "expensive model collector"
Standards and requisets are part of the contrac...not meeting the contents of the contract is certainly not legal...so if this is so, the contract should be voided and a new vendor found. But is the assessment yours or an Amtrak investigators?
henry6 But Don, service isn't just answereing the phone or having a web site that is easy to use. It is on time performance, clean train, friendly and qualified train staff, comfortable seats or beds, available quality food, safety, speed, reliability, price, convenient schedules both departing and arriving, all the mint on the pillow type stuff. In government, non business politicians who expect that kind of service when they travel have no idea how the business provides it. Businessmen in politics pick apart the cost of each feature, and unless they are in the hospitality business, they see it as an expense rather than a value added which attracts and holds customers. The whole enchelada is what service is all about, not just one thing or, in this case, just the running of a train on a track.
Yes, Amtrak is attracting the eye of politicians because they created a lot of openings to pick at. Their whole lackadaisical approach to what they do and lack of progress is what brings this down on them. Did you know they have the worst safety record of any Class 1 RR. Their injury ratio is about 3 vs less than one for the freight railroads. (reportable injuries per 200,000 (?) man hours worked)
oltmannd Yes, Amtrak is attracting the eye of politicians because they created a lot of openings to pick at. Their whole lackadaisical approach to what they do and lack of progress is what brings this down on them.
Yes, Amtrak is attracting the eye of politicians because they created a lot of openings to pick at. Their whole lackadaisical approach to what they do and lack of progress is what brings this down on them.
Just following Congress' example!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CSSHEGEWISCH Airport commissaries? Anybody who has flown within the past 4-5 years knows that airline food service on domestic flights is virtually non-existent unless you're willing to pay exorbitant prices for sandwiches. Hot meals seem to be reserved for first class and business class. The last time I got a decent meal on a plane was on a foreign flag carrier.
Airport commissaries? Anybody who has flown within the past 4-5 years knows that airline food service on domestic flights is virtually non-existent unless you're willing to pay exorbitant prices for sandwiches. Hot meals seem to be reserved for first class and business class. The last time I got a decent meal on a plane was on a foreign flag carrier.
Thats really not much of a rebuttal for keeping 12 fully staffed Amtrak Commissaries open. You pay more for airline food because it is specially packaged for the airlines. The preparation is also going to be different then on a train. So your arguing we should pay for a seperate building and staff to assemble meals for Amtrak to hold costs down and keep quality up? How does a seperate set of facilities and a seperate staff of employees accomplish this exactly?
Sam1 I spent more than 40 years flying commercial as part of my job. I never got a meal on an airplane that was very good. In fact, after the first couple of years, when the thrill of flying for business had worn off, I avoided the meals on the airplane even though they were priced into the cost of the ticket. The domestic airlines finally figured it out, thanks in no small part to Southwest Airlines, which never offered meals. Most people want to get from point A to B as cheaply as possible. They don't want meals that are prepared in a commissary, put on the plane, re-heated and served, especially when most of the meals were not as good as folks could get at their local cafeteria. Southwest figured out what the market wants. I made 22 trips between the United States and Australia, where I lived and worked for five years. Most of my trips were on Qantas, although approximately 25 per cent of them were on United. The meals on Qantas and United were of similar quality and quantity. None of them, however, were what one could get at a decent middle grade restaurant.
I spent more than 40 years flying commercial as part of my job. I never got a meal on an airplane that was very good. In fact, after the first couple of years, when the thrill of flying for business had worn off, I avoided the meals on the airplane even though they were priced into the cost of the ticket.
The domestic airlines finally figured it out, thanks in no small part to Southwest Airlines, which never offered meals. Most people want to get from point A to B as cheaply as possible. They don't want meals that are prepared in a commissary, put on the plane, re-heated and served, especially when most of the meals were not as good as folks could get at their local cafeteria. Southwest figured out what the market wants.
I made 22 trips between the United States and Australia, where I lived and worked for five years. Most of my trips were on Qantas, although approximately 25 per cent of them were on United. The meals on Qantas and United were of similar quality and quantity. None of them, however, were what one could get at a decent middle grade restaurant.
600k air miles under my belt on American Airlines. I think their first class service as far as food is concerned is more than acceptable to me. Never had a meal in First Class I didn't enjoy on American. My observations of other airlines:
America West Coach (pass the candy bar basket........really?........merged into US Scare)
Delta Air Lines Coach (Kool Aide as a beverage?.........really?)
Midwest Airlines All Business Class Airline (fairly decent meals back when they were complimentary........now the airline is out of business). Became Frontier, what a CF Frontier is.
Never flew Air Scam before Southwest bought them, I tend to avoid the cattle car airlines, life is too short already.
travelingengineer"CMStPnP," Whilst I agree with your general comments, and those of other posters, I'll quibble with your remark that "Private Passenger Rail was never efficient at running a food service operation." Though this was long before my time, Fred Harvey did a remarkable job of providing food service under contract with AT&SF at each of its roughly hundred-mile stops through the developing West, serving modestly-priced but astonishingly luxurious meals to passengers within a half hour, before reboarding for train departure. As I understand it, AT&SF desperately needed such food service, due initially because passengers could not pass between cars until Pullman created the vestibules. AT&SF got a good deal with this arrangement, and passengers were well pleased. This is well storied in the Stephen Fried title, APPETITE FOR AMERICA.
Believe it or not Dallas Union Station still has a similar operation in place for locals if you have the money, they just do not cater to the rail passengers....
http://www.unionstationdallas.com/
At any rate, I know of the Fred Harvey relationship with Santa Fe. As you noted, that was a contracted operation.
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