Paul M: 1. You seem to have ignored my second post utilizing more typical parameters. 2. If DB says they are 100% renewable energy, you can't just dismiss that statement without facts. 3. I also am surprised that someone interested in passenger rail service, as well as an [acoustics, digital signal processing] engineer, would not take the easy opportunity to ride an ICE while in Germany so that you would have some first-hand experience with excellent rail service..
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
DwightBranch schlimm: This is quite interesting. On the DB website (English version), you can compare various environmental measures for the train, car or flight between major cities. On the link I chose for Frankfurt to Berlin, it displays fuel usage, CO2 produced and particulate emissions per person for their HSR (electric), a mid-size gasoline-powered auto, and a flight (with connections to airport) with average passenger loadings. http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query2.exe/en?ld=9698&seqnr=10&ident=dr.084298.1333510380&rt=1&OK#focus Good find, schlimm, I have added a better link. http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?country=USA For those of you trying it is part of any itinerary, just pick a trip (I used Berlin to Stuttgart) and then click on the "search" button, and then click "environmental mobility check". For the Berlin-Stuttgart trip the train used the equivalent of 15 liters (around 7 or so gallons) of gas and a car 48 liters, and the CO2 production was roughly the same ratio, 3 to 1 or so. I also would point out that the mere fact that it is on their normal itinerary page shows you how seriously Europeans (and especially Germans) take greenhouse gas emissions.
schlimm: This is quite interesting. On the DB website (English version), you can compare various environmental measures for the train, car or flight between major cities. On the link I chose for Frankfurt to Berlin, it displays fuel usage, CO2 produced and particulate emissions per person for their HSR (electric), a mid-size gasoline-powered auto, and a flight (with connections to airport) with average passenger loadings. http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query2.exe/en?ld=9698&seqnr=10&ident=dr.084298.1333510380&rt=1&OK#focus
This is quite interesting. On the DB website (English version), you can compare various environmental measures for the train, car or flight between major cities. On the link I chose for Frankfurt to Berlin, it displays fuel usage, CO2 produced and particulate emissions per person for their HSR (electric), a mid-size gasoline-powered auto, and a flight (with connections to airport) with average passenger loadings.
http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query2.exe/en?ld=9698&seqnr=10&ident=dr.084298.1333510380&rt=1&OK#focus
Good find, schlimm, I have added a better link.
http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en?country=USA
For those of you trying it is part of any itinerary, just pick a trip (I used Berlin to Stuttgart) and then click on the "search" button, and then click "environmental mobility check". For the Berlin-Stuttgart trip the train used the equivalent of 15 liters (around 7 or so gallons) of gas and a car 48 liters, and the CO2 production was roughly the same ratio, 3 to 1 or so. I also would point out that the mere fact that it is on their normal itinerary page shows you how seriously Europeans (and especially Germans) take greenhouse gas emissions.
As regard to an earlier post of figures and figuring, 15 litres is not 7 gallons -- it is about 4 gallons.
OK, let's stipulate the CO2 equivalent of 4 gallons for the 360 mile trip or about 90 passenger miles per gallon. My Camry (not the latest generation car that is coming out) can do that trip on 10 gallons, and assuming an average load factor of 1.5, that works out to 54 passenger miles per gallon. Hence I would score the train about a factor of 2 improvement over the train, which is what the Vision Report claims for a Diesel train in medium-speed service on an all-coach seat train with 40 percent load factor.
The other thing is that folks drive a lot faster in Germany than here, and The Authorities are trying to get motorists to slow down with these billboards saying "110km -- Die Richtige Geschwindigkeit" meaning "The Correct (as in politically correct) Speed." I ran that kind of speed in a rental car (a kind of mini-SUV called a Renault Scenic) with the kind of engine and transmissions they have over there (1.6 litre, manual shift). I got consistently around 40 MPG (under 6 litre per 100 km). My poppa and I would have made the Hamburg-Stuttgart trip using 18 litres per person, not much different from the the train. I just stayed in the right-hand lane and let the hotshots in their Bayrische Wagens (bimmers) zoom by.
With respect to the train using "all renewable sources of electricity", then the electric train would not produce any CO2, and I think that is one of the claims that the CHSR is making that is a bit of a stretch, and that is one of the things that I "had issues" with the California High Speed Rail Authority with their little video of the windmills spinning and the train going by. Electric railroads are famously a need-the-power-now, not when the wind blows or when the sun shines. Plug-in hybrid electric cars, however, could benefit from variable and intermittent sources of energy as they have that battery and many motorists may have flexibility as to when they recharge.
But being partly of Ausland German heritage (I can't follow what anyone is saying in Germany, but I suddenly understand what people are saying when they speak it in Slovenia), I feel I have standing to generalize that the Germans are very earnest about taking many measures in pursuit of CO2 reduction. There was a critique of their solar initiative, where Germany is a cloudy, northern country (been there, can attest to that) as not being a cost-effective way of meeting carbon targets compared to alternatives. One of my critiques of the Vision Report is that fuel savings for trains is not cost effective either compared to alternatives, owing to the high subsidy rate required for trains and the large capital inputs required for expanding Amtrak.
Maybe we need to work the advocacy angle of trains as being an accomodation and an alternative to flying and driving, with fuel economy that exceeds the best automobiles or planes have to offer. But we are not going to solve the energy crisis or the CO2 crisis with trains without dramatic improvements in the cost of providing them. The efficiency of fuel-efficient cars is not that dramatically different that we can claim that high gas prices will drive motorists into train travel, that is, unless trains have operating subsidy that disguises the fact that their operating cost goes up just as the cost of driving.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
You can also adjust the settings for the auto: vehicle class, engine, and # of passengers (the number traveling or average occupancy - 1.5). You can adjust the utilization for the train from average to maximum. So for your Berlin-Stuttgart trip for one person using the train with maximum utilization (quite common) vs a lower-midsize conventional gasoline car the numbers change: the equivalent of 8 liters gasoline vs car 62.7; CO2 is 135.3 kg vs 13.5kg; particulates 11.5 gr. vs 0.71 gr. Quite a difference. Some of the critics of passenger rail here seem to minimize/dispute the environmental advantage it has. DB now uses 100% renewable energy sources for electric services (all ICE - HSR and IC trains are electric).
Good find, schlimm, I have added a better link (and actually added a link this time).
schlimm This is quite interesting. On the DB website (English version), you can compare various environmental measures for the train, car or flight between major cities. On the link I chose for Frankfurt to Berlin, it displays fuel usage, CO2 produced and particulate emissions per person for their HSR (electric), a mid-size gasoline-powered auto, and a flight (with connections to airport) with average passenger loadings. http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query2.exe/en?ld=9698&seqnr=10&ident=dr.084298.1333510380&rt=1&OK#focus
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.