n012944 Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains....
Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains....
The private company that Indiana turned it's toll road over to is a consortium of Spanish and Australian companies. Some commuter railroads that have privatized have also turned over operations to foreign companies. Along with the hollowing out of American assets is the inevitable transfer of monies offshore. Does not sound like a win for us.
henry6 oltmannd: You have that backwards. One railroad track can carry 6 highway lanes of traffic in one hour. That's why commuter rail is used..
oltmannd:
You have that backwards. One railroad track can carry 6 highway lanes of traffic in one hour. That's why commuter rail is used..
"Mess with the best, die like the rest" -U.S. Marine Corp
MINRail (Minessota Rail Transportaion Corp.) - "If they got rid of the weeds what would hold the rails down?"
And yes I am 17.
DwightBranch n012944: henry6: Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains? Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains.... Wrong: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/jeff-bingaman-senate-highway-bill-leases_n_1266385.html
n012944: henry6: Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains? Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains....
henry6: Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains?
Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains?
Wrong:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/jeff-bingaman-senate-highway-bill-leases_n_1266385.html
Now what exactly was wrong from my statement???? Where the Skyway and Indiana Toll Road not leased out? Did the State of Indiana not make money off the deal? Has he city of Chicago not been talking about leasing out Midway? Are these items transportation items other than railroads? About the only thing that could be argued was my statement about maintenance improving on the Toll Road since the lease, which your linked article did not talk about.
Indiana got 3.8 BILLION dollars from the lease
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/indiana/article_da8125ef-7d78-51f1-90e9-727b1023fd88.html
Chicago talking again about leasing Midway
http://illinoispirg.org/blogs/tax-dollars-and-sense/ilp/midway-airport-lease-resurgence
An "expensive model collector"
The problem in the US seems to be that investors want to make money with their money, not make widgets, build highways or run trains. Part of the reason Amtrak is not privtiized is because no company or investors have come forward to take it over...
...what no one seems to get through their heads is that we in the US, in fear of being ripped off (and probably rightly so if the mortgage and investment scams are any indication) and so afraid of not making a huge return on investment (whats this about an entrapeneurial risk taking classs) unless there is government protections and guarentees, have not had to face the real cost of anything in hundreds of years. Food, fuel, and and everything else in this country is priced low because the governemtn protects investors and industry from going under. Even the old adage of knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing can't stand up here because we really don't know the real price of anything and understand the value of nothing.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 The problem in the US seems to be that investors want to make money with their money, not make widgets, build highways or run trains. Part of the reason Amtrak is not privtiized is because no company or investors have come forward to take it over... ...what no one seems to get through their heads is that we in the US, in fear of being ripped off (and probably rightly so if the mortgage and investment scams are any indication) and so afraid of not making a huge return on investment (whats this about an entrapeneurial risk taking classs) unless there is government protections and guarentees, have not had to face the real cost of anything in hundreds of years. Food, fuel, and and everything else in this country is priced low because the governemtn protects investors and industry from going under. Even the old adage of knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing can't stand up here because we really don't know the real price of anything and understand the value of nothing.
If the government protects investors and industry - the same group - from going under, it needs to sharpen its skills. Of the Dow Jones companies in existence in 1900, only GE has survived. Moreover, of the 1950 S&P 500, only 39 are around today, although a number of them have been merged into companies that are still listed in the S&P 500.
Today approximately 88 to 90 per cent of the shares of U.S. corporations are owned by institutional investors, i.e. mutual funds, pension funds, endowment funds, etc. That means everyday citizens. If you are retired with a pension, chances are your pension is paid out of a fund that holds shares in a variety of U.S. companies.
n012944 DwightBranch: n012944: henry6: Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains? Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains.... Wrong: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/jeff-bingaman-senate-highway-bill-leases_n_1266385.html Now what exactly was wrong from my statement???? Where the Skyway and Indiana Toll Road not leased out? Did the State of Indiana not make money off the deal? Has he city of Chicago not been talking about leasing out Midway? Are these items transportation items other than railroads? About the only thing that could be argued was my statement about maintenance improving on the Toll Road since the lease, which your linked article did not talk about. Indiana got 3.8 BILLION dollars from the lease http://www.nwitimes.com/news/state-and-regional/indiana/article_da8125ef-7d78-51f1-90e9-727b1023fd88.html Chicago talking again about leasing Midway http://illinoispirg.org/blogs/tax-dollars-and-sense/ilp/midway-airport-lease-resurgence
DwightBranch: n012944: henry6: Shouldn't we therefore also privatize highways, waterways, canals, airports and air traffic control and any other transportation mode the governemtn underwrites? Or is it just trains? Turning highways into tollways and turning them over to a private company is an idea that I support. My commute takes me over I80/90 in Indiana, which was leased by the state of Indiana to a private firm a couple of years ago. The state made a nice little chunk of change, and the highway seems to get more maintenance since the lease. Seems like a win for everyone....The city of Chicago leased out the Skyway, which is part of I90 a couple of years ago. It also seems to be working well. Chicago is also talking about leasing out Midway to a private firm. So no, it is not just trains.... Wrong: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/09/jeff-bingaman-senate-highway-bill-leases_n_1266385.html
The taxpayers, who paid for the building of the road, only "made" money by slight of hand:
“The tax code is encouraging the privatization of public highways by offering generous tax breaks to private entities, and U.S. taxpayers are footing the very expensive bill. This practice doesn’t make any sense and I’m glad we’re a step closer to changing it,” Bingaman said in a statement Wednesday.
In other words, Wall Street entities get tax breaks through depreciation far in excess of what they are paying back to the taxpayers to lease the roads. It is as if someone stole your wallet and then offered you a job using the money they had stolen from you. But that is over now, as the amendment was included in the bill that passed the Senate, no more privatization magic beans, as far as highways are concerned anyway.
NittanyLion oltmannd: What extra highways and lots? Nearly everyone who rides Amtrak has a car. ...or two. Amtrak service in the NEC is worth about 1/3 of a highway lane in each direction during peak hours. You want to make some more sweeping generalizations about DC-NYC-BOS and its millions of people that don't have cars and use Amtrak to get between the cities?
oltmannd: What extra highways and lots? Nearly everyone who rides Amtrak has a car. ...or two. Amtrak service in the NEC is worth about 1/3 of a highway lane in each direction during peak hours.
What extra highways and lots? Nearly everyone who rides Amtrak has a car. ...or two. Amtrak service in the NEC is worth about 1/3 of a highway lane in each direction during peak hours.
You want to make some more sweeping generalizations about DC-NYC-BOS and its millions of people that don't have cars and use Amtrak to get between the cities?
Don't put words in my mouth....
That is not a sweeping generalization. It is a fact about the number of Amtrak passengers on the NEC and the capacity of a highway lane.
I made no attempt to generalize the value of that capacity or the cost of it's replacement. (which is where you can make a good argument for investment in the NEC)
A generalization I would make is that, outside of the NEC and it's branches, Amtrak could go away and you wouldn't be able to see or feel the small bump in highway traffic.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
henry6 oltmannd: What extra highways and lots? Nearly everyone who rides Amtrak has a car. ...or two. Amtrak service in the NEC is worth about 1/3 of a highway lane in each direction during peak hours. You have that backwards. One railroad track can carry 6 highway lanes of traffic in one hour. That's why commuter rail is used..
Yes and no. You CAN carry that much on a track. Amtrak in the NEC, by itself, does not. A couple trains an hour each way, 6-8 cars is the norm....plus a few LD and some peak trains.
Then we must learn or be enticed or taught to use that track capacity...I have a feeling this will eventually happen, especially in densely urban areas for commuter and regional travel because circumstances will demand it. With my Ridewithmehenry group I get down the the NY area at leaset six times a year just to ride trains. Each time we encounter more and more usage of commuter trains between outlying stations and not just in and out of the city, especially on MNRR and LIRR lines but also on The Corridor with NJ to Trenton and to SEPTA. NJT's Midtown Direct and Sec. Jct. have also made regional travel easier, even less costly, for many with NJT inerline fares, and good LIRR connections at NYP and even the MTA easy access to GCT and MNRR; Amtrak at NYP is a given. As highway congestion continues (there can be no more new highway contstruction in the area because there is no more land and air polluion is high) and gas prices rise, there has to be more and better coordination and schedule application to accomodate more regional rail travel. It will happen because it has to happen. If it doesn't happen, then there will be gridlock at best, total lack of breathable air and gridlock at worst.
BaltACD How much profit are the armed services returning on their investment? We are in a profit driven world so every organization getting tax dollars should be returning a profit to the treasury to justify it's continued existence.
How much profit are the armed services returning on their investment? We are in a profit driven world so every organization getting tax dollars should be returning a profit to the treasury to justify it's continued existence.
Actually, the Defense Budget gives a much better return on investment than passenger rail.
The Vision Report proposed spending a half a trillion dollars over 50 years to save 1/2 % on the gasoline used in automobiles. The Defense Budget runs, what, something like a half trillion per year? Suppose you attribute Defense to defending access to oil for gasoline for cars. If we spent the Vision Report budget equal to the Defense budget in one year, we would save, what, 25% of the gasoline used in cars? So then, money spent on the Defense Budget is four-fold more effective than spending on Amtrak?
What the Defense Budget does is protect access to world trade routes and markets, not just for ourselves but for the many countries in the world who are even more reliant on trade for their oil and many other internationally traded goods. This is cynically described as Blood for Oil, but there is a lot more than our own oil supply at stake, and the benefit is not limited to just oil.
You could say there is a free-rider effect inasmuch as some of our trading partners who have money to spend on HSR are not contributing their proportionate share to a common defense, and these countries need to import large amounts of oil just the same. Part of the bargain in ending WW-II is that Japan and Germany, very prosperous societies indeed, would as much as write pacifism into their Constitutions and we would allow them to be free riders on the U.S. contribution to mutual defense as part of the deal. In return, the U.S. reaps economic advantage from controlling the world reserve currency.
What I am saying is forget about Amtrak competing as a commercial enterprise with private funding; it barely competes even as a public enterprise with government funding. And just because Defense gets government funding doesn't mean it doesn't have to justify every last one of the large number of dollars it receives and spends. Just ask the folks on the F-22 Raptor assembly line who lost their jobs.
Going forward from 40 years of Amtrak, the advocacy community needs to do a better job advocating rather than falling back on "all those other guys are getting big bucks, why don't we" and "the benefits of trains are not dollars-and-cents quantifiable and why does everything have to be dollars and cents?" The high cost of providing train service is an issue the advocacy community needs to face head on. "Privatizing Amtrak" is usually a code word from anti-train people for "let's get rid of it", but as some have pointed out, Amtrak has little organizational incentive for cost improvement, and there are those in the advocacy community hopping up and down going "anti-train! anti-train!" at the least bit of any brainstorming of how passenger train service could be improved.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
henry6 As highway congestion continues (there can be no more new highway contstruction in the area because there is no more land and air polluion is high) and gas prices rise, there has to be more and better coordination and schedule application to accomodate more regional rail travel. It will happen because it has to happen. If it doesn't happen, then there will be gridlock at best, total lack of breathable air and gridlock at worst.
As highway congestion continues (there can be no more new highway contstruction in the area because there is no more land and air polluion is high) and gas prices rise, there has to be more and better coordination and schedule application to accomodate more regional rail travel. It will happen because it has to happen. If it doesn't happen, then there will be gridlock at best, total lack of breathable air and gridlock at worst.
If air pollution from automobiles is such the overwhelming problem, why the Tier 4 regulations on railroad locomotives? Why the regulations on the drying of paint?
Automobiles are highly regulated and the amount of their emissions have been so greatly reduced to the point that we are going after railroad Diesels, lawnmowers, and the hydrocarbons (V.O.C.) of drying paint.
If you have a bucket being filled by the tablespoon and reduce it to being filled by the teaspoon, it will be filled just slower. So other measures also have to be taken. Unless you've been across NJ or anyplace else in the NY metro area and taken deep breaths, you can't know how much air pollution is effecting people and the rest of the environment. We've got to do more than just reduce from tablespoons to teaspoons.
As for privatizing defense? Why not? Why not hire mercenaries and other private enterprises to hire, train, and deploy troops? Halburton and others stand by ready to make a buck on international clashes and already have been hired for certain jobs in defense? Why not have our government give up total responsiblity to our citizens in the name of money? Sounds like a good American scheme to me.
henry6 If you have a bucket being filled by the tablespoon and reduce it to being filled by the teaspoon, it will be filled just slower. So other measures also have to be taken. Unless you've been across NJ or anyplace else in the NY metro area and taken deep breaths, you can't know how much air pollution is effecting people and the rest of the environment. We've got to do more than just reduce from tablespoons to teaspoons. As for privatizing defense? Why not? Why not hire mercenaries and other private enterprises to hire, train, and deploy troops? Halburton and others stand by ready to make a buck on international clashes and already have been hired for certain jobs in defense? Why not have our government give up total responsiblity to our citizens in the name of money? Sounds like a good American scheme to me.
I have lived and worked in the greater NJ-NYC Metropolitan Area. With respect to air pollution, Los Angeles is much worse. And they think they have to regulate paint. And Diesel locomotives.
How is the cause of passenger trains advanced by snark about national defense? We do, indeed, have a large portion of the expeditionary war mission privatized, and yes, this is controversial. I have offered an explanation of why U.S. defense expenditures are as large as they are that does not rely on conspiracy theories or sarcasm. There is an arguable position that we could spend much less on national defense, but were we to do that, health care at this time is a more pressing need for the money than trains, and for saying that people call me a right-winger?
But maybe, just maybe, passenger train advocacy could compete more effectively in the political sphere if trains were not regarded as an end in themselves, if more realistic claims could be brought to the table, and if criticism of the cost-effectiveness of trains were taken more seriously.
henry6 Then we must learn or be enticed or taught to use that track capacity...I have a feeling this will eventually happen, especially in densely urban areas for commuter and regional travel because circumstances will demand it. With my Ridewithmehenry group I get down the the NY area at leaset six times a year just to ride trains. Each time we encounter more and more usage of commuter trains between outlying stations and not just in and out of the city, especially on MNRR and LIRR lines but also on The Corridor with NJ to Trenton and to SEPTA. NJT's Midtown Direct and Sec. Jct. have also made regional travel easier, even less costly, for many with NJT inerline fares, and good LIRR connections at NYP and even the MTA easy access to GCT and MNRR; Amtrak at NYP is a given. As highway congestion continues (there can be no more new highway contstruction in the area because there is no more land and air polluion is high) and gas prices rise, there has to be more and better coordination and schedule application to accomodate more regional rail travel. It will happen because it has to happen. If it doesn't happen, then there will be gridlock at best, total lack of breathable air and gridlock at worst.
No doubt NJT and the LIRR make good use of the available track capacity at peak times. They are packing >1000 people on a train and running them on 4 minute headways. That's a lot of people - worth about 8 highway lanes.
Compare that to one Amfleet train with 600 or so people and an Acela with 300 in an hour. That's worth 1/2 a lane of highway.
Paul Milenkovic Someone here please convince me that subsidizing Amtrak results in more quantifiable environmental savings then taking the same money and giving tax breaks on hybrid or electric cars. By my reckoning, if Amtrak saves 1000 BTUs/passenger mile at 20 cents subsidy/passenger mile. If a hybrid or electric car saves 1000 BTUs/passenger mile, a $10,000 tax credit for a plug-in hybrid amounts to 7 cents/passenger mile. Hence the hybrid car subsidy is three times more effective than subsidizing Amtrak. Why are we giving money to Amtrak if saving the environment is a concern?
Someone here please convince me that subsidizing Amtrak results in more quantifiable environmental savings then taking the same money and giving tax breaks on hybrid or electric cars.
By my reckoning, if Amtrak saves 1000 BTUs/passenger mile at 20 cents subsidy/passenger mile. If a hybrid or electric car saves 1000 BTUs/passenger mile, a $10,000 tax credit for a plug-in hybrid amounts to 7 cents/passenger mile. Hence the hybrid car subsidy is three times more effective than subsidizing Amtrak. Why are we giving money to Amtrak if saving the environment is a concern?
Aside from the subsidy, I would suggest that your numbers may work for purely electric cars, but not for hybrids. To compare with electrified passenger rail corridors, highway mileage is the comparable figure. While a hybrid such as a Prius gets great highway mileage (48mpg),that is almost totally with a gasoline engine. Consequently it would produce far more CO2 as well as other pollutants than a train carrying 400 passengers powered from green energy sources. This would be true per passenger/mile and probably even on a 1:1 comparison.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
My snark about defense was in referenct to another post above. But reality has to set in somehwere that we have saturated the air and the land and must make changes before we kill ourselves off. Many point to our current weather problems as being a result of Global Warming being a reaction to our unabated polluting habits.. I visit the NY area, not live there. So I do see and feel the erosion on a time lapse rather than it creeping around me. Social planners, civil engineers, scientists, and others have noted the need to take action to slow our polluting ways or eliminate as much as possible. Most of the time they point to automobiles, trucks, and buses as being the largest segment of contributors to the problems of pollution and Global Warming; my time lapse snapshots makes me concur. So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio?
schlimm Aside from the subsidy, I would suggest that your numbers may work for purely electric cars, but not for hybrids. To compare with electrified passenger rail corridors, highway mileage is the comparable figure. While a hybrid such as a Prius gets great highway mileage (48mpg),that is almost totally with a gasoline engine. Consequently it would produce far more CO2 as well as other pollutants than a train carrying 400 passengers powered from green energy sources. This would be true per passenger/mile and probably even on a 1:1 comparison.
One person in a Prius at 48 highway MPG is using 2600 BTU/passenger mile, which is about what Amtrak is averaging, using some electricity from a mix of sources and more Diesel fuel, which is a petroleum product.
If you are talking full-electric or plug-in hybrid cars, there is potentially more savings at higher capital investment. The same is true if you are talking electric trains.
henry6 So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio?
So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio?
Is that your plan, to invest a couple hundred billion dollars? What in all seriousness do you think you are going to get for a mere couple hundred billion dollars?
The Vision Report proposed investing 500 billion in order to boost Amtrak from .1 percent up to a full 1 percent of auto passenger miles, saving one half a percent on automobile gasoline consumption in the process, with commeasurate reduction in pollution.
I am not talking about profit motive and greedy investors and stingy taxpayers and the like. The kind of reform you want, of making meaningful inroads on pollution and congestion and road paving over will have long-term costs in the multiple trillions of dollars and will be in serious competition with needed health care expenditure for our aging population. Am I greedy because I am 10 years out from retirement and would like to see Medicare fully funded as a higher priority over a national HSR network?
I keep picking on the Vision Report as the Gold Standard of what people in the advocacy community want. If there are economies of scale and you think we can get a lot more trains for a lot less money, I would like to hear about it, and especially what departure from business-as-usual you support.
All I know is my freight train is either blocked or delayed by either the Northbound or Southbound Crescent almost every day. When the train finally goes by it is dirty and there a only a few passengers on board. It is nothing like the original Southern Crescent which was a class act. The pride of the railroad!
The country would be much better off if Amtrak was relegated to owning and maintaining the tracks of the Northeast Corridor. The government could treat the tracks just like a highway or any municipal airport and appropriate funds to maintain, enhance or add capacity as such. Private train companies just like the airlines at any major airport could lease space or capacity to run their trains. Amtrak could provide dispatching on the Northeast Corridor just like the Air Traffic Controllers in the airline industry which are government paid employees.
Then let the states decide if they want corridor service outside of the Northeast Corridor and negotiate with the host freight railroads to operate the trains, not Amtrak.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Paul Milenkovic henry6: So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio? Is that your plan, to invest a couple hundred billion dollars? What in all seriousness do you think you are going to get for a mere couple hundred billion dollars? The Vision Report proposed investing 500 billion in order to boost Amtrak from .1 percent up to a full 1 percent of auto passenger miles, saving one half a percent on automobile gasoline consumption in the process, with commeasurate reduction in pollution. I am not talking about profit motive and greedy investors and stingy taxpayers and the like. The kind of reform you want, of making meaningful inroads on pollution and congestion and road paving over will have long-term costs in the multiple trillions of dollars and will be in serious competition with needed health care expenditure for our aging population. Am I greedy because I am 10 years out from retirement and would like to see Medicare fully funded as a higher priority over a national HSR network? I keep picking on the Vision Report as the Gold Standard of what people in the advocacy community want. If there are economies of scale and you think we can get a lot more trains for a lot less money, I would like to hear about it, and especially what departure from business-as-usual you support.
henry6: So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio?
But isn't that the question, or questions? Invest or not invest? If so, who? How do we guage the return on investment? Or are we just putting words on the internet pages?
henry6 My snark about defense was in referenct to another post above. But reality has to set in somehwere that we have saturated the air and the land and must make changes before we kill ourselves off. Many point to our current weather problems as being a result of Global Warming being a reaction to our unabated polluting habits.. I visit the NY area, not live there. So I do see and feel the erosion on a time lapse rather than it creeping around me. Social planners, civil engineers, scientists, and others have noted the need to take action to slow our polluting ways or eliminate as much as possible. Most of the time they point to automobiles, trucks, and buses as being the largest segment of contributors to the problems of pollution and Global Warming; my time lapse snapshots makes me concur. So, what is the investment of a couple hundred billion dollars worth for survival of the society? Should it be measured in mere dollars and cents in an investor's portfolio?
anyway wasn't this about amtrk, not false scintific theorys?
gabeusmc well all the electic cars and such that suppousdly help this fasle thing called golbal warming would be worthless where I live. A prius does not get through three feet of snow. A hummer gets through and to me thats more important than worring somthing, that if it existed, we could do nothing about. anyway wasn't this about amtrk, not false scintific theorys?
well all the electic cars and such that suppousdly help this fasle thing called golbal warming would be worthless where I live. A prius does not get through three feet of snow. A hummer gets through and to me thats more important than worring somthing, that if it existed, we could do nothing about.
There isn't a reputable scientist anywhere who denies that human-caused release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere causes the global temperature of our planet to rise. We know that Carbon Dioxide gas (some other gases even more so but they are released in smaller quantities) absorbs infrared radiation from the sun at a rate substantially greater than the other major components of our atmosphere, nitrogen and oxygen gases; and, we know at roughly what rate human activity such as use of automobiles and coal-fired power plants (the two major sources) release CO2 gas into the atmosphere. It is then simply a matter of mathematics to multiply the two factors as a component of the overall atmosphere to come up with the rate at which the atmosphere will become warmer. And those calculations have been remarkably accurate. Given this fact, and that we humans and other organsms (including our food sources) have adapted ourselves to the climate we now have it behooves us to curtail the release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere. And one major way to do so is through the use of steel wheel on steel rail transportation, by far the most efficient system of transportation available.
DwightBranch There isn't a reputable scientist anywhere who denies that human-caused release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere causes the global temperature of our planet to rise.
There isn't a reputable scientist anywhere who denies that human-caused release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere causes the global temperature of our planet to rise.
This post is itself a greenhouse gas. A favorite ploy of the 'warmers' is to say "there isn't a reputable scientist," etc. But there is -- are.
All we need to know about 'man-made' warming is this: Carbon dioxide comprises less than one-half of 1 percent of atmospheric gases, fewer than 500 parts per million. You could look it up. Mankind, working just as hard as he can ... in India, in China, in the U.S. and everywhere else ... accounts for about 3 percent of the CO2 total.
In short, if we're warming -- itself an unanswered question about which reputable climatologists disagree -- man ain't responsible. And what we do with the railroads makes no difference at all except with air quality in a few cities.
DwightBranch it behooves us to curtail the release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere. And one major way to do so is through the use of steel wheel on steel rail transportation, by far the most efficient system of transportation available.
it behooves us to curtail the release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere. And one major way to do so is through the use of steel wheel on steel rail transportation, by far the most efficient system of transportation available.
But steel-wheel on steel-rail transportation is only marginally more fuel efficient than other choices. If you want the low-down on this, check out http://www.lafn.org/~dave/. Historically, automobiles have been more energy efficient than the modes they replaced, but because automobiles are so convenient, the total amount of passenger miles has just exploded.
The problem is not that automobiles are so energy inefficient, the problem is that we use them too much because they are so much more convenient than other choices.
Ultimately, a program to provide trains to replace automobiles has to be coupled with a plan to curtail automobile usage, through gasoline taxes, zoning restrictions, and so on. Maybe the real reason the anti-train people are so hopped up is that the trains-as-saving-the-environment program is in the long run a question of curtailing automobile usage by making it much less convenient. It is not so much that people love cars that they love their freedom -- their freedom to take on jobs without having to relocate, the freedom to have two income earners in the family with jobs in different places, the freedom to "have a place up north" that they can hop into the car and visit, and so on.
Even some of the people favoring trains have "issues" with curtailing autos. On other threads I had filled in the details that in the brief, 6-month political window where Madison, WI was going to get passenger service, the local train advocacy group people just went ballistic with WisDOT about the decision to change the Madison train station from Dane County Regional Airport to the Madison Downtown.
This has gone far enough that I'm thinking Godwin's law can't be too far away.
dakotafred DwightBranch: There isn't a reputable scientist anywhere who denies that human-caused release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere causes the global temperature of our planet to rise. This post is itself a greenhouse gas. A favorite ploy of the 'warmers' is to say "there isn't a reputable scientist," etc. But there is -- are. Name one. A hard scientist- physicist or chemistry not a "meteorologist". And one peer reviewed. The guy the AEI was sending around was a weatherman with a bachelor's degree. All we need to know about 'man-made' warming is this: Carbon dioxide comprises less than one-half of 1 percent of atmospheric gases, fewer than 500 parts per million. You could look it up. Mankind, working just as hard as he can ... in India, in China, in the U.S. and everywhere else ... accounts for about 3 percent of the CO2 total. Your math is wrong, but even if it weren't, what seems like a small amount (3% in your statement, if it was how much the global temperature rose over 1990 levels would cause Florida to be submerged. Look it up. In short, if we're warming -- itself an unanswered question about which reputable climatologists disagree -- man ain't responsible. And what we do with the railroads makes no difference at all except with air quality in a few cities. Again, I know of know accredited, peer reviewed hard scientist who would agree with you. Anywhere.
DwightBranch: There isn't a reputable scientist anywhere who denies that human-caused release of Carbon Dioxide gas into the atmosphere causes the global temperature of our planet to rise.
Name one. A hard scientist- physicist or chemistry not a "meteorologist". And one peer reviewed. The guy the AEI was sending around was a weatherman with a bachelor's degree.
Your math is wrong, but even if it weren't, what seems like a small amount (3% in your statement, if it was how much the global temperature rose over 1990 levels would cause Florida to be submerged. Look it up.
Again, I know of know accredited, peer reviewed hard scientist who would agree with you. Anywhere.
Don't take my word for it:
http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/responsibility/environmental-leadership/
I think you are very wrong. Because of the much lower surface area of contact between wheel and rail (about the size of a dime) and far lower friction the mechanical energy required to move a similar weight on rails is much lower than for rubber tires on pavement. I used to watch switchmen push covered hopper cars around by hand in the ICG Bloomingon yards. I also drove a semi when I was a student, try to push that by hand, empty or not.
Paul Milenkovic The problem is not that automobiles are so energy inefficient, the problem is that we use them too much because they are so much more convenient than other choices.
BTW, try it, it is fun:
http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/customers/tools/carbon-calculator/
oltmannd This has gone far enough that I'm thinking Godwin's law can't be too far away.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.