So much for Amtraks high speed in Michigan

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

Also aren't most aggregate trains northbound ?? That is all I ever saw.

The rocks go North, however, the empties have to go South so more rocks can go North.

[MidlandMike]

Just in case anyone missed it, a Trains News Wire story dated April 4 states that NS will start trackwork on Apr. 16 to bring the trains back up to speed.

[Dug Fin]

Are you aware that Federal land grants were almost unknown east of Illinois? None at all in Indiana and very little in Michigan and Illinois. Also the government kept land beside the railroads and benefited greatly from the appreciation in price on that land and came out ahead. NS got almost no help in the construction its current lines from government and that has been repaid many years ago.

[DwightBranch]

blue streak 1

 

DwightBranch:

 

 

I just don't see the point of doing that, and then dodging FEC aggregate trains to Miami, when CSX already has a shorter route between Miami and Orlando. The only thing I can see is that RailAmerica is trying to sell their line to the state for passenger service the way CSX did between Orlando and Ocala (for a ridiculously high price).

 

 

      dwight: Sorry but Amtrak timetable lists CSX route thru Kississimmee  as 265 miles and this FEC route as 240 miles. + we do not know where FEC is proposing their MIA station maybe st cruise ship terminal which is further south than MIA Amtrak or new MIC terminal??

Also aren't most aggregate trains northbound ?? That is all I ever saw.

Is the FEC distance from Cocoa- downtown Orlando is 40 miles there. The only other thing to be gained that I can see is to integrate the FEC from Jacksonville to Miami and then connect to Orlando into the SEHSR plan from RIchmond to Jacksonville, but that is a long way off. Other than that I can see it being used to prevent HSR from happening on a dedicated right of way along the turnpike.

[blue streak 1]

DwightBranch

 

I just don't see the point of doing that, and then dodging FEC aggregate trains to Miami, when CSX already has a shorter route between Miami and Orlando. The only thing I can see is that RailAmerica is trying to sell their line to the state for passenger service the way CSX did between Orlando and Ocala (for a ridiculously high price).

      dwight: Sorry but Amtrak timetable lists CSX route thru Kississimmee  as 265 miles and this FEC route as 240 miles. + we do not know where FEC is proposing their MIA station maybe st cruise ship terminal which is further south than MIA Amtrak or new MIC terminal??

Also aren't most aggregate trains northbound ?? That is all I ever saw.

[DwightBranch]

oltmannd

 

 

 

They are only talking about 40 miles from their existing ROW to Orlando.  Conventional service.  Not HSR.

 

I just don't see the point of doing that, and then dodging FEC aggregate trains to Miami, when CSX already has a shorter route between Miami and Orlando. The only thing I can see is that RailAmerica is trying to sell their line to the state for passenger service the way CSX did between Orlando and Ocala (for a ridiculously high price).

[blue streak 1]

if a moderator could move the Florida pass proposal to that thread if would be helpful to everyone.

[oltmannd]

DwightBranch

OK, well we'll see if they use their own money to build it. They won't be able to build a dedicated right of way from here to Miami, 250 miles, for $1 Billion, more like $30 Billion is what studies said before. The HSR route between here and Tampa that our governor cancelled would only work for $10 Billion because the lanes on I-4 between Orlando and Tampa are wide enough apart to put it there and the state owned it, FEC will need to buy their own land from here to Miami.  Again, my guess is that this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to fund their scheme.

They are only talking about 40 miles from their existing ROW to Orlando.  Conventional service.  Not HSR.

[oltmannd]

ecoli

 

oltmannd:

 

 

ecoli:

 

 

n012944:

 

 

MidlandMike:

 

 

PNWRMNM:

 

Dakota,

... ATK is a drain on the freight carriers.

Mac McCulloch

 

 

According to an NS news release (11/14/07) the federal government authorized $95 million toward their $151 million Heartland Corridor clearance project, and yet you say the government railroad is a drain on this railroad.  Very interesting.

 

 

 

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

 

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. (Want examples? According to Ben Goldman of Streetsblog, 45% of the latest round of federal TIGER III funding went to freight projects. And every few days the AAR newsline has another press release about some freight infrastructure project being awarded federal, state, or local tax dollars.)

 

 

How, then, do you explain the Richmond - Norfolk Amtrak train that NS helped push?  Something is rotten in Michigan, and it's not NS....

 

 

 

For any project there's a price in money and favors that will make the host railroad happy (heck, UP might have been willing to run the Sunset more than 7 times a week if they thought they could thereby dupe the taxpayers into paying to double-track the route for them) so Richmond/Norfolk doesn't necessarily prove NS is pro-Amtrak. I was reacting to the disconnect between the ideology that says railroads have no responsibility to the public beyond maximizing profit, versus the reality that they take government handouts all the time. The notion of public-private partnerships can do a lot of good. It can also lead to very unhappy outcomes (socializing losses while privatizing profits--see Wall Street, AIG, etc.)

Railroads have obligations as regulated common carriers.  They also have an obligation to their current contract(s) with Amtrak.  The STB is the regulating body.

That nobody is taking NS to court or to the STB over this seems to indicate that NS is within their obligations.  I will stick to my guess that this is poking Michigan with a stick to wake them back up.  They want to buy the line.  They have the Fed. money to do it.

You will not find a more passenger-friendly Class 1 CEO than the guy on NS - but he does not take his responsibility to the RR's owners lightly.

[DwightBranch]

OK, well we'll see if they use their own money to build it. They won't be able to build a dedicated right of way from here to Miami, 250 miles, for $1 Billion, more like $30 Billion is what studies said before. The HSR route between here and Tampa that our governor cancelled would only work for $10 Billion because the lanes on I-4 between Orlando and Tampa are wide enough apart to put it there and the state owned it, FEC will need to buy their own land from here to Miami.  Again, my guess is that this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to fund their scheme.

[n012944]

DwightBranch

 

 Interesting, nothing in the local media about it, I did a search on all the local papers and TV stations...

 

South Florida Business Journal

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/news/2012/03/22/fec-plans-miami-to-orlando-passenger.html

Orlando Sential

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-22/business/os-train-orlando-miami-20120322_1_tampa-orlando-route-high-speed-train-passenger-trains

 

Miami Herald

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/22/2707688/florida-east-coast-industries.html

[DwightBranch]

n012944

 

DwightBranch:

 

If the freight railroads want to be free of their obligation to provide public passenger transportation then they should buy land and build their own tracks. No offers? That is what I thought.

 

 

I guess you thought wrong...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22

LOL, I live in Orlando, this has been tried before, the Florida Fun Train, run on CSX with cars designed for Alaska. FEC is twenty-eight miles away from here in Titusville, if they want to build a line between here and there (longer than CSX route) through the swamps for passengers it will be truly a spectacle, don't expect profits when Amtrak runs a shorter route between Orlando and Miami, unless this is either a) untrue (my guess) or b) a scheme that will be funded by taxpayers. Interesting, nothing in the local media about it, I did a search on all the local papers and TV stations...

[n012944]

ecoli

 

.

 

 

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. 

Unless there was a condition wrote into the funding of the Heartland Corridor that stated the Michigan line must retain its level of up keep for the Heatland money to be approved, the two have nothing to do with each other.  Here is the thing, the elected representatives that helped push for the funding of the Heatland Corridor could not care less about Amtrak in Michigan.  They care about getting jobs in their states.  That is how the game works.  The few people that are going to get upset about the fact that Amtrak has to pay its own way will be outnumbered by the many that are excited about the increase in jobs for the new construction.

If Amtrak increased service on the Michigan line to require double track, I don't think people would expect the NS to pick up the bill for the building of another track, as the NS does not require it.  Why then do people expect the NS to pay for the line to stay at class 4 track, when the NS only requires to be class 2 track for its needs?

[n012944]

DwightBranch

If the freight railroads want to be free of their obligation to provide public passenger transportation then they should buy land and build their own tracks. No offers? That is what I thought.

I guess you thought wrong...

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/florida-east-coast-industries-inc-announces-plans-for-private-passenger-rail-service-in-florida-2012-03-22

[ecoli]

oltmannd

 

ecoli:

 

 

n012944:

 

 

MidlandMike:

 

 

PNWRMNM:

 

Dakota,

... ATK is a drain on the freight carriers.

Mac McCulloch

 

 

According to an NS news release (11/14/07) the federal government authorized $95 million toward their $151 million Heartland Corridor clearance project, and yet you say the government railroad is a drain on this railroad.  Very interesting.

 

 

 

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

 

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. (Want examples? According to Ben Goldman of Streetsblog, 45% of the latest round of federal TIGER III funding went to freight projects. And every few days the AAR newsline has another press release about some freight infrastructure project being awarded federal, state, or local tax dollars.)

 

 

How, then, do you explain the Richmond - Norfolk Amtrak train that NS helped push?  Something is rotten in Michigan, and it's not NS....

 

For any project there's a price in money and favors that will make the host railroad happy (heck, UP might have been willing to run the Sunset more than 7 times a week if they thought they could thereby dupe the taxpayers into paying to double-track the route for them) so Richmond/Norfolk doesn't necessarily prove NS is pro-Amtrak. I was reacting to the disconnect between the ideology that says railroads have no responsibility to the public beyond maximizing profit, versus the reality that they take government handouts all the time. The notion of public-private partnerships can do a lot of good. It can also lead to very unhappy outcomes (socializing losses while privatizing profits--see Wall Street, AIG, etc.)

[MidlandMike]

oltmannd

 

ecoli:

 

 

n012944:

 

 

MidlandMike:

 

 

PNWRMNM:

 

Dakota,

... ATK is a drain on the freight carriers.

Mac McCulloch

 

 

According to an NS news release (11/14/07) the federal government authorized $95 million toward their $151 million Heartland Corridor clearance project, and yet you say the government railroad is a drain on this railroad.  Very interesting.

 

 

 

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

 

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. (Want examples? According to Ben Goldman of Streetsblog, 45% of the latest round of federal TIGER III funding went to freight projects. And every few days the AAR newsline has another press release about some freight infrastructure project being awarded federal, state, or local tax dollars.)

 

 

How, then, do you explain the Richmond - Norfolk Amtrak train that NS helped push?  Something is rotten in Michigan, and it's not NS....

 

My purpose in my original post was to play devil's advocate opposite someone who was wanting NS to "stick it to 'em".  I give both NS and Michigan the benefit of the doubt, and grant that they are both trying to negotiate to a place they can both live within.  They have successfully negotiated the use of the same line before, and both have dealt with other agencies/companies successfully in the past.  They will probably come to some agreement, and we might never know what the sticking points were, so it seems useless to speculate or point fingers.  Amtrak and the railroads have grumbled about each other for years, but it's probably best to not get in the middle of family arguments.

[oltmannd]

ecoli

 

n012944:

 

 

MidlandMike:

 

 

PNWRMNM:

 

Dakota,

... ATK is a drain on the freight carriers.

Mac McCulloch

 

 

According to an NS news release (11/14/07) the federal government authorized $95 million toward their $151 million Heartland Corridor clearance project, and yet you say the government railroad is a drain on this railroad.  Very interesting.

 

 

 

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

 

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. (Want examples? According to Ben Goldman of Streetsblog, 45% of the latest round of federal TIGER III funding went to freight projects. And every few days the AAR newsline has another press release about some freight infrastructure project being awarded federal, state, or local tax dollars.)

How, then, do you explain the Richmond - Norfolk Amtrak train that NS helped push?  Something is rotten in Michigan, and it's not NS....

 

[ecoli]

n012944

 

MidlandMike:

 

 

PNWRMNM:

 

Dakota,

... ATK is a drain on the freight carriers.

Mac McCulloch

 

 

According to an NS news release (11/14/07) the federal government authorized $95 million toward their $151 million Heartland Corridor clearance project, and yet you say the government railroad is a drain on this railroad.  Very interesting.

 

 

 

One has nothing to do with the other.

I think there is a definite connection between NS shafting Amtrak riders and federal funding for the Heartland Corridor: the former might inspire some of us to urge our elected representatives to put an end to the latter, and the numerous other "welfare for corporations" freight infrastructure projects, funded by federal and state governments, which help make the freight carriers the profit generators they are today. (Want examples? According to Ben Goldman of Streetsblog, 45% of the latest round of federal TIGER III funding went to freight projects. And every few days the AAR newsline has another press release about some freight infrastructure project being awarded federal, state, or local tax dollars.)

[schlimm]

There is a difference between enforcing civility and a heavy-handed censorship.  It may be a fine line, but there is a distinction.  Every year we seem to get into this sort of dispute.  As far as this thread goes, both parties to the dispute have valid points.  ATK has used DoJ before; however, there is a more recent agreement between ATK and NS that permits lowered speed limits.

[gabeusmc]

Sir Madog

I don´t like the way this thread is heading, so either it stays civil, or I am going to lock it.

And if anybody has a problem with Sir Madog doing that, you'll have to anwser to me too.

[Anonymous]

I don´t like the way this thread is heading, so either it stays civil, or I am going to lock it.

[n012944]

DwightBranch

Trains subscriber since 1979, and anyone reading can tell who is the instigator here...

 

Pointing out incorrect statements is not instigating.......Resorting to name calling is poor show.

[DwightBranch]

Trains subscriber since 1979, and anyone reading can tell who is the instigator here...

[n012944]

Funny, nothing about jail time that you were claiming was going to happen....Nothing said about maintaining track to a certain standard, like you claimed..... The DOJ was not even involved,  it was a meeting between Amtrak and CSX.  Some of the things that came out of the meeting is that Amtrak would no longer have only one engine on its trains into and out of Florida.  The record of the one engine wonders breaking down and shutting down a single track railroad was poor.  There were quite a few things done that day, to build the relationship between the two companies.  Again, as I said on the first page, you were incorrect about what you stated about CSX and Amtrak, no jail time, no fines...

Since you are new here, I will let the obtuse comment go, but here is a link to the forum polices...

 

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/188083.aspx

 " No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don’t let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don’t sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so."

 

I get it, you are upset that someone called you out on some of your untrue statments, but please don't resort to name calling.

[DwightBranch]

n012944

 

DwightBranch:

 

 

 

 

  You also seem clueless towards the Amtrak's contracts with the class ones, and what is required of them. 

"Amtrak hits the "jackpot" on CSX, in a bad way." Fred Frailey,Trains, October 2006, p.9:

"What can Amtrak do?...The law that created Amtrak gives its trains statutory priority over freight trains. That law can be enforced by a US Department of Justice lawsuit against a non-cooperating railroad. ... Crosbie [Bill Crosbie, Amtrak's senior Vice-President of operations] hopes such measres won't be neccesary. He and acting Amtrak President met on July 18 with Tony Ingram, Chief Operating Officer of CSX; David Brown, the railroad's Chief Transportation Officer ... As the meeting broke up, Ingram was heard to advise a subordinate: "Bury the hatchet." ... Memo to Union Pacific's President Jim Young: You're next."

Are you going to say Frailey is "clueless" as well? I can find several other articles from the same time frame in Trains advocating the use of the Justice Department to compel CSX and the other railroads to comply, but I am done wasting time with anyone as obtuse as you.

 

[n012944]

DwightBranch

 

 

 

I am getting tired of your patronizing tone (somewhere in this thread you told someone else to "educate himself") especially when you seem clueless as to the subtext of what is being discussed (that NS is using this speed reduction to try to extort money from Amtrak and/or Michigan). Either learn to read between the lines or please keep your opinions to yourself.

I am well aware of what the NS is doing. However you seem clueless about the process and legality of what the NS is doing.  You also seem clueless towards the Amtrak's contracts with the class ones, and what is required of them.  As for keeping my opinions to myself, good luck with that.  Maybe one should be a member of a forum for a little more than a week and half before dictating policy.

BTW please find the quote on this thread where I told someone to "educate himself"......

[DwightBranch]

n012944

 

DwightBranch:

 

 

BaltACD:

 

Be careful what you ask for - you may get it!

 

 

Indeed- FRA could come in and impose 10 MPH on freight trains, for example, or embargo it entirely, if it is that unsafe.

 

 

 

Sigh.  Please tell me where anyone is saying that it is "that unsafe".  A 30 mph slow order is a long way from a line being embargoed because of its condition.  I

I am getting tired of your patronizing tone (somewhere in this thread you told someone else to "educate himself") especially when you seem clueless as to the subtext of what is being discussed (that NS is using this speed reduction to try to extort money from Amtrak and/or Michigan). Either learn to read between the lines or please keep your opinions to yourself.

[PNWRMNM]

You are making this more complicated than it is. NS has posted track for 25 MPH. That means that when the FRA track inspector shows up he can only write up violations of the FRA Class II standard. That condition applies regardless of the general condition of the track.

If NS had been maintaining to Class IV before restricting speed to 25 MPH, the vast majority of the track will physically meet Class IV standards, so the FRA will have a hard time finding any violation of Class II standards. In the longer run, NS will presumably fix only those things that are violation of Class II standards and the overall condition of the line will deteriorate to Class II,  This deterioration will take years, depending on begining condtion and tonnage over the line. 

Mac McCulloch

[n012944]

DwightBranch

 

BaltACD:

 

Be careful what you ask for - you may get it!

 

 

Indeed- FRA could come in and impose 10 MPH on freight trains, for example, or embargo it entirely, if it is that unsafe.

 

Sigh.  Please tell me where anyone is saying that it is "that unsafe".  A 30 mph slow order is a long way from a line being embargoed because of its condition.  I