oltmannd Cool! But, 5 years to upgrade 24 miles of RR? Can't we get this elephant to dance a bit faster?
Cool! But, 5 years to upgrade 24 miles of RR? Can't we get this elephant to dance a bit faster?
As Don Oltmannd so aptly puts it Amtrak needs to rethink the work schedule.
1. Locating utilities needs to be done now.
2. Unknown utilities are a real problem. PRR may have done it right but what about PC?/ then Conrail ? then the early days of Amtrak ? I have never done any buried utility work where unknowns have not reared their ugly head even where RRs were involved.
3. Any crossovers work should be done however the need to modify CAT will complicate the process.
4. Once any required enviromental assestments are complete then the real work can begin.
4a. Track 1 or track 4 can be closed to drill the foundations for the intermediate horizontal supports and any 138Kv stantions that need replacement.
4b. The intermediate verticals can then be installed with maybe the adjaecent track CAT turned off? Any interferrence with signal power & wires will have to be delt with.
5. Here is where I and the rest of us may have made an assumption not based in fact.
5a. IMHO there will be no reason to install PRR type intermediate horizontals at most locations. Instead just install modern 2 track hangers that are used throughout Europe and at some locations on the BOS - New Haven portion and on the new CAT of NJ Transit and other locations. That installation should allow the 2 opposite tracks CAT to stay energized ?
6 . At those locations that do need new Horizontals (( hopefully Amtrak will not install them everywhere )) with the need to shutt off CAT a work window should be established from 9:00 PM to 07:00 AM .
6a. Set up one hour
6b. Shut off CAT
6c for those trains scheduled from 2200 - 0600 either use P-42s or better still lease overnighting NJ Transit ALP-45DPs that are 125 MPH capable. Use them Trenton - Newark or NYP.
6d. This upgrade area only has 2 late evening regionals a Keystone NB and 2 Late evening egionals and 1 Keystone southbound. There is also 66 &67 late night trains and the 2 NB long distance trains Palmetto and Cardinal. Easily covered by overnighting AL-45s. There are a couple NB SB regionals until 0600 in the morning.
So with this type construction this should not be a 5 year project ??
matthewsaggie Article about the environmental review process and supposedly it's to be sped up: http://www.app.com/article/20120113/NJNEWS/301130100/White-House-will-speed-approval-of-improvements-to-Northeast-rails
Article about the environmental review process and supposedly it's to be sped up:
http://www.app.com/article/20120113/NJNEWS/301130100/White-House-will-speed-approval-of-improvements-to-Northeast-rails
activated
Real money is earned in small segments and over long periods of time. Thus a 25mph increase over a 24 mile segment is not out of order and could bring significant markings to a bottom line be it money, time, or marketing.
As for baggage-dorm cars. There are times when labor costs have to be weighed and applied. If a crew can be aboard and available because of a baggage dorm rather than land based hotel or dormatory rooms, then it is the right choice. This also has to be weighed against income for the space. If the space can be rented out every night is one thing, but if only once a week, then it is another. Crew costs...and control...have to be considerd in the operation and not just an offhand chance of taking in revenue.
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1. $450 Million to spend on an upgrade that has to last another 80 years. Budget $90 million a year and take 5 years to complete.
2. Do the "upgrade" while Amtrak and Local trains whiz by every 20 minutes, it slows down the job.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
dakotafred oltmannd: daveklepper: Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants. Why don't the attendants just rotate off like the operating crew and release all that space w/o having to buy a thing? A very good question, Don, that I remember you asking back in July 2010. I wonder if the answer isn't simply that this is a case of industrial hangover ... the way things were always done. Pullman attendants always made the whole trip, therefore needed sleeping space. It's true that if we changed them as often as engine crews we wouldn't need sleeping space for them ... but we'd need many more crews! The whole thing needs to be rethought, if we're going to keep long-distance. But I sure wouldn't start the rethinking process with a whole bunch of expensive non-revenue space.
oltmannd: daveklepper: Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants. Why don't the attendants just rotate off like the operating crew and release all that space w/o having to buy a thing?
daveklepper: Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants.
Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants.
Why don't the attendants just rotate off like the operating crew and release all that space w/o having to buy a thing?
A very good question, Don, that I remember you asking back in July 2010. I wonder if the answer isn't simply that this is a case of industrial hangover ... the way things were always done. Pullman attendants always made the whole trip, therefore needed sleeping space. It's true that if we changed them as often as engine crews we wouldn't need sleeping space for them ... but we'd need many more crews!
The whole thing needs to be rethought, if we're going to keep long-distance. But I sure wouldn't start the rethinking process with a whole bunch of expensive non-revenue space.
While political pressure may keep the LD trains running for quite a while, in the grand scheme of things, Amtrak LD trains will become increasingly hard to justify in the face of the federal funding needed for SSI, Medicare and the debt.
The best hope for keeping them is to improve their economic performance. Sadly, I don't think Amtrak is up to the task. The only time they seem to get interested is when they are poked in the eye with a stick. The latest is the PIIRA requirements of 2008. And, even then, they only ever seem to nibble around the edges.
Then, when they do manage to find some money, they say and do things that make your head shake. A huge purchase of non-revenue space. Replacing the entire fleet of electric locomotives when the current ones could be rebuilt for less (and the same model is still tramping around all over Sweden with a much higher average age). It is clear the economics don't drive their decision making as much as departmental convenience.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
matthewsaggie A FONSI (Finding of No Signifigant Impact) is what you hope to obtain after doing an EIS (Environmantal Impact Study). Its not the same thing as an EIS. The actual goal of all this is a ROD (Record of Decision) where the federal agency, in this case the FRA, certifies that all environmental issues and rules, human and natural have been considered and mitigated to the maximimum extend feasable. No federal money can be spent on construction, or even final engineering, until there is a ROD signed off on This project could possibly get by with an EA (Environmental Assessment) a lesser review often for smaller projects, especially those not adding R/W or tracks. The FONSI and ROD are stil the final goals.
A FONSI (Finding of No Signifigant Impact) is what you hope to obtain after doing an EIS (Environmantal Impact Study). Its not the same thing as an EIS. The actual goal of all this is a ROD (Record of Decision) where the federal agency, in this case the FRA, certifies that all environmental issues and rules, human and natural have been considered and mitigated to the maximimum extend feasable. No federal money can be spent on construction, or even final engineering, until there is a ROD signed off on
This project could possibly get by with an EA (Environmental Assessment) a lesser review often for smaller projects, especially those not adding R/W or tracks. The FONSI and ROD are stil the final goals.
Thanks for explaining what I had hopelessly screwed up!
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
oltmannd daveklepper: Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants. Why don't the attendants just rotate off like the operating crew and release all that space w/o having to buy a thing?
daveklepper Buying baggage-dorms does release revenue space in sleepers now occupied by attendants.
Buying a whole sleeper creates even more revenue space.
You can make perfectly good 125 mph baggage cars out of Amfleet cars.
blue streak 1 2c. The curves at Lincoln,Croyden, Torresdale, Frankford all have various speed restrictions from 90 - 115 MPH.
2c. The curves at Lincoln,Croyden, Torresdale, Frankford all have various speed restrictions from 90 - 115 MPH.
oltmannd The $450M is for New Brunswick to Trenton. There are two very shallow curves just south of New Brunswick. I don't think an curve realignment is included. Would think a FONSI would suffice for cat replacement - even with some new cat poles. If a new sub station site is included, that would need a full blown EIS, probably.
The $450M is for New Brunswick to Trenton. There are two very shallow curves just south of New Brunswick. I don't think an curve realignment is included.
Would think a FONSI would suffice for cat replacement - even with some new cat poles. If a new sub station site is included, that would need a full blown EIS, probably.
Oltmannd: You may be correct of only 2 curves ?. I took the all curves listed in Amtrak's statement from NYP to PHL. Someone who knows all the locations may be able to locate them.
2b. There is a 60 MPH slow order at the Elizabeth "S" curve. The 60 may be for only regional trains and Acelas may be higher.
blue streak 1 dakotafred: $450 million and five years for an additional 25 mph on 24 miles of railroad? This reminds me of how the Boardman administration addressed the shortage of revenue space on long-distance trains in July 2010, with a five-year, $298-million contract for 130 cars that include 55 baggage cars and 25 baggage-dorms. Your statements are based on assumptions that are not actually the way rail operations are conducted on the 24 miles. 1. If it was 135 to 160 MPH then only 1:36 would be saved for each Acela. 2. Unfortunately for Amtrak they are not going 135 for the whole 24 miles. 2a. Acelas generally only run the route at 125 MPH max as well as the regionals especially during extreme weather temps. 2b. There is a 60 MPH slow order at the Elizabeth "S" curve. The 60 may be for only regional trains and Acelas may be higher. 2c. The curves at Lincoln,Croyden, Torresdale, Frankford all have various speed restrictions from 90 - 115 MPH. 2d. The best scheduled timing for the 24 miles from Metropark to Trenton of a regional is 21 minutes or 68 MH. 3. Next is construction duration. The time is due to complexity of rebuilding a RR while it is providing service. 3a. First the acquisition of ROW to effect curve realignments will have to be addressed especially at the Elizabeth "S" curve. 3b. The construction of new alignments will require new high voltage transmission line locations. 3c. The new alignments will require the inside of curve tracks to be relocated one at a tiime but in coordination with installation of the constant tension CAT. 3d. New constant tension CAT is required for speeds over 150 MPH. 3e. To install constant tensio requires intermediate CAT supports ( horizontals ) between eachof the present supports. Do you want to span a steel beam across 4 - 6 tracks of live CAT? So probably will have to be done at night ? 3f. After all Track work and new intermediate CAT supports installed then constant tension can be installed. 4. Although this work is for present Acelas whose max speed is 160 the rebuilding on this section will be good for 220 MPH when next gen Acelas are built. 5. The 130 cars are ordered to replace cars that have a max speed limit of 110 MPH which now can slow down any Acelas or regional trains. Any delay of these 110 MPH trains ( usually LD trains ) cascades and slows following trains. 6. the shortage of revenue cars may be somewhat addressed by the new bi-levels for the midwest that will free up single level cars to be used on eastern trains. 7. NJ Transit is being required to upgrade all equipment used on the NEC to operate at 125 MPH so they will not delay following Amtrak trains. 8. Same for SEPTA and MARC. 9. The number of passenger minutes saved ( 10 + minutes for each Amtrak and NJ Transit train )will be a great number since both Amtrak and NJ Transit will be able to run xpress train to / thru Trenton at 125 or better. There may be a net energy savings as trains on this 24 mile streach will no longer have to slow at the above named curves. 10. These items and more are covered on Amtrak's web site under Reports and Documents then selecting " Interim Assestment of Achieving Improved Trip Times "
dakotafred: $450 million and five years for an additional 25 mph on 24 miles of railroad? This reminds me of how the Boardman administration addressed the shortage of revenue space on long-distance trains in July 2010, with a five-year, $298-million contract for 130 cars that include 55 baggage cars and 25 baggage-dorms.
$450 million and five years for an additional 25 mph on 24 miles of railroad?
This reminds me of how the Boardman administration addressed the shortage of revenue space on long-distance trains in July 2010, with a five-year, $298-million contract for 130 cars that include 55 baggage cars and 25 baggage-dorms.
Your statements are based on assumptions that are not actually the way rail operations are conducted on the 24 miles.
1. If it was 135 to 160 MPH then only 1:36 would be saved for each Acela.
2. Unfortunately for Amtrak they are not going 135 for the whole 24 miles.
2a. Acelas generally only run the route at 125 MPH max as well as the regionals especially during extreme weather temps.
2d. The best scheduled timing for the 24 miles from Metropark to Trenton of a regional is 21 minutes or 68 MH.
3. Next is construction duration. The time is due to complexity of rebuilding a RR while it is providing service.
3a. First the acquisition of ROW to effect curve realignments will have to be addressed especially at the Elizabeth "S" curve.
3b. The construction of new alignments will require new high voltage transmission line locations.
3c. The new alignments will require the inside of curve tracks to be relocated one at a tiime but in coordination with installation of the constant tension CAT.
3d. New constant tension CAT is required for speeds over 150 MPH.
3e. To install constant tensio requires intermediate CAT supports ( horizontals ) between eachof the present supports. Do you want to span a steel beam across 4 - 6 tracks of live CAT? So probably will have to be done at night ?
3f. After all Track work and new intermediate CAT supports installed then constant tension can be installed.
4. Although this work is for present Acelas whose max speed is 160 the rebuilding on this section will be good for 220 MPH when next gen Acelas are built.
5. The 130 cars are ordered to replace cars that have a max speed limit of 110 MPH which now can slow down any Acelas or regional trains. Any delay of these 110 MPH trains ( usually LD trains ) cascades and slows following trains.
6. the shortage of revenue cars may be somewhat addressed by the new bi-levels for the midwest that will free up single level cars to be used on eastern trains.
7. NJ Transit is being required to upgrade all equipment used on the NEC to operate at 125 MPH so they will not delay following Amtrak trains.
8. Same for SEPTA and MARC.
9. The number of passenger minutes saved ( 10 + minutes for each Amtrak and NJ Transit train )will be a great number since both Amtrak and NJ Transit will be able to run xpress train to / thru Trenton at 125 or better. There may be a net energy savings as trains on this 24 mile streach will no longer have to slow at the above named curves.
10. These items and more are covered on Amtrak's web site under Reports and Documents then selecting " Interim Assestment of Achieving Improved Trip Times "
blue streak 1 Oltmannd: Do you or anyone know if Amtrak has already completed or at least started EIS ?? iF SO WHAT IS THE PROGRESS? excuse capitals keyboard is acting up.
Oltmannd: Do you or anyone know if Amtrak has already completed or at least started EIS ?? iF SO WHAT IS THE PROGRESS? excuse capitals keyboard is acting up.
The preliminary EIS is called a FONSI. (Finding of no significant impact). I don't know, but we should be able to look it up on the EPA web site...
blue streak 1 6. Unfortunately Amtrak will have to go outside existing ROW for the curve realignments.
6. Unfortunately Amtrak will have to go outside existing ROW for the curve realignments.
To put all of this into perspective, Metro-North/ConnDOT have been doing something similar on the former New Haven catenary slowly replacing the original hardware with constant tension. "Thus far, 132 track miles of catenary wire have been replaced..." at a cost of $218.5 million. "When the entire project is finished, 217 track miles of wire throughout the New Haven Line will have been upgraded." Amtrak should have no problem blowing through $450 million in under 24 miles.
http://www.mta.info/news/stories/?story=154
blue streak 1 Does anyone know if NS or CSX had to file any EIS for their double stack work? I know that that took BNSF many years for ABO.
Does anyone know if NS or CSX had to file any EIS for their double stack work? I know that that took BNSF many years for ABO.
Certainly for some of the work. Daylighting some of the tunnels, at the least.
oltmannd I don't have a problem with doing the work. I have a problem with the timeline. Exactly how long did it take to do the Heartland Corridor Project? Or the PRR mainline clearance project? Both less than two years from start to finish - and they both included lots of obstacles and unexpected problems dealing with raising the roof on tunnels. How long for Abo Canyon on BNSF? If this were Conrail or NS or BNSF, this wouldn't be a 5 year deal...
I don't have a problem with doing the work. I have a problem with the timeline. Exactly how long did it take to do the Heartland Corridor Project? Or the PRR mainline clearance project? Both less than two years from start to finish - and they both included lots of obstacles and unexpected problems dealing with raising the roof on tunnels. How long for Abo Canyon on BNSF?
If this were Conrail or NS or BNSF, this wouldn't be a 5 year deal...
Don: I agree that the time line is very long.
1. Certainly the upgrade to 100 MPH iinterlockings could be completed by this time next year.
2. the installation of intermediate cross arms for the constant tension CAT can also start.
3. Sections of Constant tension CAT can then be installed when the iintermediate supports are installed.
4. Signal upgrades should also be substantially completed.
Then the problems begin.
5. NS was able to complete their work on owned ROW.
7. THE nimbys , BANANAS, and everyone else will fight the various required EISs. Ssome persons will try to inflate the value of the property needed to realign the ROW. Even construction access easements may be difficult. There may not be the access cooperation that MNRR got for rebuilding the Port Jervis line ? Anyone know what the various rules in NJ for adverse property acquisition both temporary and permanent ?
8. So Amtrak could find 22 miles completed in 2 years while the various curves prevent HSR operation.
9. When all the work is completed then the FRA will step in and require endless testing of the track. The FRA will claim that this is the first track to operate at these speeds in the USA and they need to write rules for these speeds even though it will only be 150 MPH to 160 MPH operation. Maybe Amtrak can operate at 150 until FRA is satisfied ?
10. So IMHO it will be government interferrence that will streach out this work ? Can any US president speed it up ? I doubt it.
oltmanndThis has to be new, constant tension catenary, and perhaps a voltage/freq change. A good start. The rest of the NEC's southern end needs this. This is all "off the shelf" stuff.
dakotafred $450 million and five years for an additional 25 mph on 24 miles of railroad? This reminds me of how the Boardman administration addressed the shortage of revenue space on long-distance trains in July 2010, with a five-year, $298-million contract for 130 cars that include 55 baggage cars and 25 baggage-dorms.
Maybe it is time to throw in the sponge on Amtrak ... or at least on Joseph Boardman and his board.
henry6 oltmannd: From Progressive Railroading Jan 12, 2012 "• Amtrak will advance design, engineering and other pre-construction activities for a $450 million project that will boost train speeds from 135 mph to 160 mph along a 24-mile section of the NEC between Trenton and New Brunswick, N.J. Major construction is scheduled to begin in 2013 and be complete in 2017." Cool! But, 5 years to upgrade 24 miles of RR? Can't we get this elephant to dance a bit faster? Maybe we really do need fewer elephants to accomplish this. In fact, no maybe about it, get rid of the elephants and call in the donkeys!
oltmannd: From Progressive Railroading Jan 12, 2012 "• Amtrak will advance design, engineering and other pre-construction activities for a $450 million project that will boost train speeds from 135 mph to 160 mph along a 24-mile section of the NEC between Trenton and New Brunswick, N.J. Major construction is scheduled to begin in 2013 and be complete in 2017." Cool! But, 5 years to upgrade 24 miles of RR? Can't we get this elephant to dance a bit faster?
From Progressive Railroading Jan 12, 2012
"• Amtrak will advance design, engineering and other pre-construction activities for a $450 million project that will boost train speeds from 135 mph to 160 mph along a 24-mile section of the NEC between Trenton and New Brunswick, N.J. Major construction is scheduled to begin in 2013 and be complete in 2017."
Maybe we really do need fewer elephants to accomplish this. In fact, no maybe about it, get rid of the elephants and call in the donkeys!
Donkey's don't move in a straight line any faster than elephants.
Why not just bid the whole deal out? Have bidders give timeline and costs. Smallest net present cost for the project wins. Bonus paid if it can beat promised deadline. Keep as much of Amtrak's internal bureaucratic out of it as possible! Send'em out for dancing lessons!
When there is only one elephant on or near the dance floor, what options do you have. I recommend you booze it up on the premise that the only elephant in the bar, irrespective of appearance, will begin to look good as closing time approaches.
What part of competitive markets do we not understand?
oltmannd From Progressive Railroading Jan 12, 2012 "• Amtrak will advance design, engineering and other pre-construction activities for a $450 million project that will boost train speeds from 135 mph to 160 mph along a 24-mile section of the NEC between Trenton and New Brunswick, N.J. Major construction is scheduled to begin in 2013 and be complete in 2017." Cool! But, 5 years to upgrade 24 miles of RR? Can't we get this elephant to dance a bit faster?
D.Carleton Please understand that, despite all the fanfare, this is nothing more than a clean-up of long deferred maintenance with some extra bells-and-whistles.
Please understand that, despite all the fanfare, this is nothing more than a clean-up of long deferred maintenance with some extra bells-and-whistles.
This has to be new, constant tension catenary, and perhaps a voltage/freq change. A good start. The rest of the NEC's southern end needs this. This is all "off the shelf" stuff. Why a 5 year period to do a mere 24 miles?
The longer the gap between the money going out and the return flowing in, the worse the ROI - by a lot! Big projects like new intermodal terminals in frt RRs typically take only a few years from first thought to completion.
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