daveklepper The bottom line is that the Acela Service reduces and does not increase the overall subsidy of the NEC. Any accounting analysis will prove this. The Acela service either reduces the ticket price you and I pay for NE Regional service or reduces the subsidy we require when we use that service or a bit of both. This has been repeated and repeated and repeated.
The bottom line is that the Acela Service reduces and does not increase the overall subsidy of the NEC. Any accounting analysis will prove this. The Acela service either reduces the ticket price you and I pay for NE Regional service or reduces the subsidy we require when we use that service or a bit of both.
This has been repeated and repeated and repeated.
It depends on the amount of capital baked into the NEC for the Acela service. The line was upgraded at significant cost for the Acela service, i.e. electrification of the line from New Haven to Boston, etc.
The Acela fares are not sufficient to off-set the capital costs of the upgrade. Until the Acela covers its proportional share of the capital costs (it is not), it is incorrect to say that it is subsidizing the NEC regional fares. Or at least this is the conclusion that most cost accountants would draw.
Unless Amtrak opened its books to public analysis, which it has not done, a valid accounting analysis cannot be performed.
A bigger factor in reducing NEC regional train fares, I suspect, is the competition, especially from buses and cars. Wannabe travelers from Philadelphia to New York, for example, can take a Bolt Bus for about half of what it costs to go by train. Train devotees may not take a bus, but apparently plenty of people are doing so. Bolt is probably making money; it is adding services throughout the Northeast. Unlike Amtrak, it is an investor owned business. It covers its costs or goes out of business. What a novel idea.
The logical argument has been presented on this thread innumerable times, but you simply seem rather deaf to its statement. The bottom line is that the Acela Service reduces and does not increase the overall subsidy of the NEC. Any accounting annalysis will prove this. The Acela service either reduces the ticket price you and I pay for NE Regional service or reduces the subsidy we require when we use that service or a bit of both. It also performs a useful function by taking cars off overcrowded highways (sure possibly less than 1% on I-95, but every bit helps) and reduces the need for airport and highway land-taking for further expansion.
Whether it is subsidized or not is more a matter of semantics than fact. When you drive your personal automotible you are being subsidized by your state's citizens and by your fellow USA citizens. The fact that a Cadillac driver is also subsidized should not disturb you. You would pay more for your Chevrolet or Ford when you bought it if Cadillacs and Lincolns had not also been sold.
daveklepper ACELA: The bottom line is that the Acela service reduces the overall subsidy needed for the NEC and so in a sence is "profitable" even if all services are subsidized if capital costs are included.
ACELA: The bottom line is that the Acela service reduces the overall subsidy needed for the NEC and so in a sence is "profitable" even if all services are subsidized if capital costs are included.
Without the ability to look at Amtrak's books in depth, as well as the other railroads with a stake in the NEC, there is no way to verify the assertion that the Acela service reduces the overall subsidy needed for the NEC.
It is unlikely that Amtrak would have made the large capital investments in the NEC had it not been for the Acela. However, at the end of the day, no one can know for sure, because no one ran a parallel universe to determine the costs of the alternatives. One thing is certain, however. The NEC does not cover its capital costs out of the fare box.
PATH: The new cars do speed loading and unloading and can result in faster schedules and more service when all are in service. The articulated Electroliners had zero trouble with CTA/CRT sharp curves, and that shows a long articulated car can be run around PATH curves which are no sharper that CTA's. The clearance restrictions are also similar. The new cars have less seating capacity and PATH has gone from an mixture of facing and backward and side seats to all (bowling alley) side seating, thus reducing comfort for off-peak passengers, since more people have to stand. What I would do is use the center doors on each cars only during heavy traffice and have fold-down seats from panels each side of the center doors to provide additional seating during light traffic periods.
The idea of hostlers at Newark is precisely so there is a motorman (engineer) at each end of the train between the Newark station platforms and the stub-end double track pocket. Now, a four-minute headway is the minimum, because it takes time for the engineer on each train to wal the length of the train to reverse ends. The headway could be reduced to two minutes or possibly even 90 seconds, by having an engineer at each end. One train at a time through the X crossovers being the limitation. (Even that problem could be solved by a flyowver track, but that costs money.) But hostlers would be required, since it would be uneconomical for having the second engineer go all the way to WTC or Herald Square. The engineer and conductor of the arriving train at Newark would to downstairs and take over the next arriving train from the pocket tracks west of the staton. The two hostlers would go upstairs and board the next arriving train from Manhattan.
I'm curious if the new PATH trains are better with the new door configuration. They sure look like they are easier for many people to board and alight than the old cars are.
Thank you, henry.
dakotafred Some on here have sounded as if Acela is a guest on Amtrak rails. I thought Acela was simply a faster Amtrak service. Am I wrong?
Some on here have sounded as if Acela is a guest on Amtrak rails. I thought Acela was simply a faster Amtrak service. Am I wrong?
An interesting interpertation...but you are right...Acela is an Amtrak service. It is a novel idea in this age of investment banking mentality, provide a service that fits your business. But don't let my sarcasim scare you off. I really think there is disbelief that people with money, whether business class or whatever, do have money and will spend it because they want what money will buy. It just takes a lot to offer such serface....
....and, yeah, not all riders of Acela are on business expense accounts. But neither do all business people dress in three piece suits with white shirt and tie, either. Going into car dealerships of late and I can't figure out who is the mechanic and who is the salesman! Business owners of all kinds never with a shirt and tie, but jeans and tee shirts!
This is another reason why I can say we've got to stop thinking of what has been and what is and start thinking in new terms and building a new transportation system from scratch.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Umm, well, slow down. I ride Acela and it's not wall-to-wall suits. Plenty of regular people ride Acela between WAS and NYP.
And, everything that was done to improve the infrastructure for Acela has directly benefitted all other trains, from Northeast Regional (which exceeds original Metroliner speeds, by the way) and commuter, from track integrity, reliability, and dispatch.
Does the OP actually ride the Acela?
CSSHEGEWISCH PATH has short cars for the same reason that CTA has short cars, there are several curves that can't handle long cars. The same tight curves preclude the use of diaphragms between cars, North Shore tried it with their Silverliner rebuilds but thay had to be pinned back when operating on the L.
PATH has short cars for the same reason that CTA has short cars, there are several curves that can't handle long cars. The same tight curves preclude the use of diaphragms between cars, North Shore tried it with their Silverliner rebuilds but thay had to be pinned back when operating on the L.
It's the overall length of a "longer" articulated car for PATH that is proposed, like the 97' 3-unit articulated cars of the CTA. I really don't know how effective articulated cars would be in allowing passengers on board to migrate to the ends of a crowded train. Each multi-unit car would need to be half the train length, ~175', which works out to about 5 sections.
Perhaps more effective would be to have a mix of stations with center and end platform stairs/escalators with both at WTC to distribute boarding and alighting.
Newark has tail tracks to reverse PATH trains expeditiously; but I'm not familiar with the operation.
Henry6 made some suggestions that seem worth exploring, albeit requiring another tunnel.
Yes, the 90 degree curves (I exaggerate a little) is a problem for PATH and I would think articulated cars would't be able to take the turns, especially the short S and double reverses unless made of rubber from end to end. And I understand the signalling is getting an upgrade. Of course I think PATH in terms of Hoboken but from Grove Street west to Newark it is a different railroad with fewer and less tight curves...so maybe a longer articulated car could be used Newark to Downtown. I'm not sure a hostler would necessarily speed things for return trips at Newark because the trains would still have to go to the far west end and return. Unfortunately the wesbound and the eastbound terminal tracks are at different levels, so stub end and reversing is out of the question. (It is interesting to note that on the weekend service Journal Square to Hoboken to 33rd St to Hoboken to Journal Square there is an engineer at each end of the train as the route is into stub end terminals at Hoboken and 33rd St and with the crowd there is not enough time for the motorman to walk the length of the train for turnaround!) The current signal system of short and overlapping blocks (some as short as a car length where speeds are slow) is based on short cars, too. During rush hours trains often run on the markers or at least with at least one train in sight ahead. Longer trains won't do it because of the platform lengths which also might preclude the use of longer articulated cars if only because nothing could be gained.
Perhaps extending the 33rd St line north and west to terminate at Secaucus Jct, (See the 7 train plan) or even then continuing on from SJ back to Journal Sq. via the old Marion Jct. might be of help (running in a continuous loop or to Newark). One of the things PATH cannot do is make an up and downtown trip easy. Its fares are lower than the subway and thus takes away from subway patronage. That's why one has to change trains somewhere along the line (Hoboken, Grove St.,, or Journal Square) if going from 33rd St to WTC or vice versa). In short I think the way to ease congestion and speed up service for PATH is not in the car sizes, an probabley not much in increasing speeds either, but in expanding and duplcating or augmenting routes.
PATH can increase capacity as follows:
Use a hostler system at Newark for running trains to the pocket tracks with the road engineers dropping off at Newark Station, to halve the headway betweet trains between Journal Square and Newark, and then run through Herald Square service as well as WTC service. They are planning to upgrade the signal system, and if the same standards are used system-wide, there should then be no other problem.
A lot of short cars are uneconomic for maximum loading. Because with passenger unable to move between cars, trains are loaded unevenly, and there can be lots of room in end cars with center of train cars packed to capacity. Many overseas rapid transit lines have learned and applied this lesson. Madrid, for one. I think PATH should be using long multi-section articulated cars, with one or two mutli-car units for the entire train, instead of a lot of small cars. It would be possible to take the existing shells and components of the latest equpment and rebuild them. The riding quality would improve also.
And at least for the WTC-Newark service, longer platforms and longer trains.
It's going to be a few years before any new tunnels are opened. It'd be great if PATH can improve capacity beyond what it already accomplishes; otherwise a question of priorities remains for Penn Station. A comment was made that something was in the works to lengthen some platforms.
CUS and LAUPT face problems too; but those should be separate threads.
It wouild be difficult to make better use of the PATH tunnels under any circumstances mainly because of the trolley car curves, reverse curves, and turnouts. The only cars that will fit are the short cars designed for the service, no other car from another route source would fit. And, during rush hour, PATH runs to capacity with a short block signal system and the motormen virtually reading the letters on the markers of the train ahead. So that leave only one two things left: twin bores for at least two tracks if not four, for heavy rail equipment. And while everything runs toward Penn Station (or GCT from the north and the new LI approach to GCT), I often ponder a heavy rail tunnel from Hoboken-Jersey City to downtown Manhatten through to perhaps a LIRR connection at Flatbush and Atlantic or over to Fresh Pond. It would alleviate a lot of congestion at Penn for both NJT and LIRR for starters.
Downtown to downtown one-seat rides are essential to hold the intercity short-destance corridor market. That is a given. The Illinois Terminal sure found out that in a hurry when their new streamliners could not enter downtown Peoria. The PRR spent a whale of a lot of money so its intercity trains could enter NY, but most of its commuter passengers still went to Exchange Place, Jersey City and enjoyed the ferry boat ride or a transfer to the Hudson and Manhattan, today's PATH to reach Manhattan. Rush hour commuter service from New Jersey into Penn Station Manhattan increased as intercity trains decreased, as a way for PRR to cut out the expense of ferry boats and the Exchange Place terminal and passsenger yard and locomotive facilities. Commuters are more likely to put up with changes than corridor business riders. The tradition of going to Manhattan and going to San Frfancisco by a ferry boat at the end of a train ride is an old one. Most residents of Staten Island that work in Manhattan do it today, even arriving by bus at the Ferry terminal and even though there is express bus service to Manhattan.
My solution to the Hudson River tunel capacity problem is to make better use of the four existing PATH tunnels, and I have already make some suggestions to PATH. (They did implement certain other suggestion which were provided on a professional basis.)
henry6 Oltman...if you are doing single ride fares for Acela and Regional, then you must compare to single ride fares on NJT, too. But. I don't understand the point here anymore. So what if one service subsidizes another? In retailing it is done all the time..Supermarkets. They.sell lots of bolongna at a cheap price and sell the bread at full price; sell potato chips and pretzels with lots of salt so you can buy high fructose drinks; if you sell speghetti, you better sell speghettii sauce, too. And you sell 89 cent per pound speghetti and 89 cent sauces plus 2 buck a pound speghetti and 4 bucks a jar sauce for the gourmands. Whats the problem here?. Business should be in business to make money by giving service or goods at a price people are willing to pay.
Oltman...if you are doing single ride fares for Acela and Regional, then you must compare to single ride fares on NJT, too. But. I don't understand the point here anymore. So what if one service subsidizes another? In retailing it is done all the time..Supermarkets. They.sell lots of bolongna at a cheap price and sell the bread at full price; sell potato chips and pretzels with lots of salt so you can buy high fructose drinks; if you sell speghetti, you better sell speghettii sauce, too. And you sell 89 cent per pound speghetti and 89 cent sauces plus 2 buck a pound speghetti and 4 bucks a jar sauce for the gourmands. Whats the problem here?. Business should be in business to make money by giving service or goods at a price people are willing to pay.
I'm trying to get at something beyond the business aspect of setting fares, namely the best use for the public of a piece of critical infrastructure. Irrespective of private or public ownership the Hudson tunnels and Penn Station are infrastructure critical to the public. What would be the best use, Amtrak or all-NJT in the peaks, if push comes to shove, especially without the new tunnels and assuming a growing demand and desire for access to Manhattan from New Jersey? For instance, if one NJT train in the Acela slot would shuttle all Amtrak riders to connect with trains at Newark, the Regional and Keystone slots could be turned over to NJT for an additional 2,500-plus commuters equivalent to another highway tunnel lane.
1. In comparing fares for the purposes of looking at the subsidy question one looks at the fares that most riders use for each service. Thus it is entirely appropriate to compare single Acela fares with monthly pass commuter fares.
2. Amtrak owns the Hudson River tunnels and the line to Washington also used by NJTransit. The East River tunnels are half Amtrak and half LIRR, but they are dispatched for the best flow of traffic regardless of ownership, although most traffic does use the owned tunnels because of the platform arrangements at Penn Station.
3. Metro North owns the lines from Grand Central Terminal to both Poughkeepsie and to the NY-Connecticut State Line. Connecticut DOT from the State Line to east of New Haven Station. Amtrak is a tenant from Spuyten Dyvel (sp?) to Poughkeepsie and from New Rochelle to New Haven.
So why should Amtrak get pushed off their own tracks during the prime times for Acela use? Anyway, I was under the impression that Metro North, NJT and ConnDOT trains mostly used different tracks than the Amtrak trains.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Amtrak, yes. Commuter agencies from D.C. to Boston use the tracks.
henry: I agree, this thread is getting silly. If some folks care to pay for more deluxe and faster service, what of it? BTW, who owns the tracks in Penn Station and on down the line to Washington? Amtrak?
daveklepper Oltmannd: Which Acela fare, lowest or highest? Regular or business/1st class?
Oltmannd: Which Acela fare, lowest or highest? Regular or business/1st class?
Typical same day peak fare. If you want to compare commuter with Acela, rush hour fares apply. Acela fare was bus. class. Regional was coach. NJT was monthly pass and 20 RT a month.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
HarveyK400 Some food for thought: The question is whether, for roughly the same revenue, it is better to carry more passengers on NJT or accommodate the privileged on Acela with the limited capacity? If the revenue per train comes in about the same, wouldn't NJT almost be profitable as well?
Some food for thought:
The question is whether, for roughly the same revenue, it is better to carry more passengers on NJT or accommodate the privileged on Acela with the limited capacity?
If the revenue per train comes in about the same, wouldn't NJT almost be profitable as well?
Not so sure if revenue per train is actually close to equal (and to determine those numbers is beyond me). Remember, riders on NJT are paying about the same per mile, while on Acela there is a wide range. On the 25th, a rider on the 7:00 am Acela using first class pays a whopping $314.00 one way ($1.39 per mile). But folks are willing to pay.
Anyway, if the new configuration at Penn allows for more capacity at rush hour (more tracks or at least a quicker turnaround?), maybe both can coexist, even at peak times in the morning and afternoon?
'Round and 'round we go, and...
These subsidy debates can go on forever. Let's agree that we all subsidize each other every day, both through government action and our own business choices. Those without children or who send their children to private school subsidize those who send them to public school. City property owners who do not own cars have a large part of their property taxes go to streets and traffic control. "Free" parking is subsidized by non-drivers who shop at businesses with "free" parking. Any product purchased that's made in USA was probably made in a factory that half a century or so ago moved outside of town and purchased enough land to build and maintain parking facilities. Those who use the drive-thru window at fast food places are subsidizing those who eat inside: the owner has the expense of utilities, clean-up and trash collection and disposal. The 100-lb woman on an airline flight pays the same fare as the 250-lb man. We can go on forever.
As for what subsidies are justified, that's easy. If it benefits me, it's a worthy investment; if it benefits you, it's a boondoggle,
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimm The Acela fares from Oltmannd and myself depend on day and time of day. The ones I sampled were for April 25 and were coach.
The Acela fares from Oltmannd and myself depend on day and time of day. The ones I sampled were for April 25 and were coach.
Details. Some food for thought:
Sam1 Oh, c'mon is a put down. It is an insult. It adds no value. Claiming that an issue is phoney implies that a contributor lacks the intellectual skills or knowledge to analyze data and formulate an issue. Another put down is to say that a person does not understand the point, especially when the accuser does not offer any verifiable data to refute the person's point of view. If you disagree with a point of view, show your point of view with logic and verifiable data. Belittling a contributor adds not value. Inflamatory words to put down or attempt to put down a point of view don't belong in these forums. Or in any other discussion for that matter.
Oh, c'mon is a put down. It is an insult. It adds no value.
Claiming that an issue is phoney implies that a contributor lacks the intellectual skills or knowledge to analyze data and formulate an issue.
Another put down is to say that a person does not understand the point, especially when the accuser does not offer any verifiable data to refute the person's point of view. If you disagree with a point of view, show your point of view with logic and verifiable data. Belittling a contributor adds not value.
Inflamatory words to put down or attempt to put down a point of view don't belong in these forums. Or in any other discussion for that matter.
I think that your latest post far transcends anything you have accused me of doing. I also note, in reviewing this thread, that I'm not the only one who disagreed with your point of view that you've accused of forum misconduct. But it doesn't matter. I don't intend to post anything else on this topic.
oltmannd daveklepper: Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out! NJT montly pass on NEC ~20 cents per mile Acela NYP-WAS ~90 cents per mile Amtrak Regional NYP-WAS ~50 cents per mile
daveklepper: Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out!
Commuter fares, for most of the passengers (who ride on monthly tickets), are more like one tenth of the fare on a mileage basis as compared with the average Acela fare. Check it out!
NJT montly pass on NEC ~20 cents per mile
Acela NYP-WAS ~90 cents per mile
Amtrak Regional NYP-WAS ~50 cents per mile
I tried. Had to sign up for a program, got to complicated, and messed up my e-mail uninstalling.
Glad to see oltmannd came up with the info - not too far from my 3x shot in the dark.
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