All the formulas I saw were only in print before internet, mostly in appendices of corridor studies for the consultant's copyrighted or licensed methodology. Inasmuch as my copies are gone and memory is dimmed, finding the methodologies would take a search of state DOT archives. I haven't tried to find any one of the studies at the Northwestern University Transportation Library which is one of the best in the country.
The California experience was covered in an interview of Caltrans officials in a Trains article on the success of their rail passenger program.
Amtrak's ridership figures for the year after the increase in service were trumpeted by the Midwest High Speed Rail Association that worked hard to get the Legislature to fund it.
HarveyK400A second train might increase annual ridership roughly 70%. This was typical for forty years ago; and it's still consistent with recent Illinois experience. California had a similar experience that increasing the number of trains increased ridership by a lesser proportion until the number of trains reached a point - I forgot exactly; but it was 6-7 round trips - where ridership started to increase more than the increase in service.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
If one train may generate 150,000 riders a year, an average of 205 per train. It's interesting that the 1979 ridership was almost twice the UK estimate; so they may be erring on the conservative side.
A second train might increase annual ridership roughly 70%. This was typical for forty years ago; and it's still consistent with recent Illinois experience. California had a similar experience that increasing the number of trains increased ridership by a lesser proportion until the number of trains reached a point - I forgot exactly; but it was 6-7 round trips - where ridership started to increase more than the increase in service.
On the one hand, a second round trip would not be as cost effective; but a second train would make the service as a whole that much more relevant. Most riders would not be a number of frequent riders, commuters, but rather many occasional riders from the broader population.
A daytime train between Kansas City and Fort Worth implies a morning departure and evening arrival at Kansas City. The second train would originate in Wichita in the morning and and return from Kansas City in the evening. An alternative would be to extend the Wichita train to Saint Louis; but Chicago is not feasible unless Chicago-Kansas City can be reduced to 10 hours.
I remember a big spread in Trains Magazine about "Kansas City". Nowhere in the article was Missouri or Kansas mentioned. Are we outlanders to assume that KC means MO only? How do the 'locals' differentiate the two?
Hays
I rode the "Lone Star", FTW-KCY-CHI on the way to NYP back in 1975. As I remember, it was a nice trip. Anytime you can give a "Train to Nowhere", like the "Heartland Flyer", or the "Montrealer", a viable big-city destination, business will increase greatly. Need I mention LAX-Las Vegas? Haven't done that since 1960 on the old UP.
Found this article referencing the proposal for Kansas service by the proposed Northern Flyer.
"Study finds strong economic incentives for new Amtrak route through Kansas"
Apparently this study is still going around, some of the 'stats' seem to tend in the direction of over-optimism, but I thought it might be of interest here since it was published in the Lawrence Journal and Wichita Eagle in Jan of this year.
The long and the short of it is; Real Passenger service here i n Central Kansas would be a nice alternative to air service( spotty) to either KC or Dallas-Ft Worth. Sure would beat being 'fondled' by TSA goons!
Here's the link: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2010/jan/07/study-finds-strong-economic-incentives-new-amtrak-/
SFbrkmnThe KS Senate today passed its version of a state rail psgr bill 40-3 and now it goes to the House. We'll see what takes place. Not knowing all details, there are four proposals on extending service north of OK City into KS--two daytime and two nighttime. The OK group is pushing for a daylight service which again only makes good business sense. If KS can come up w/ a funding source, then chances are good something can come from this. With Topeka cash stapped, its going to be tough.
The KS Senate today passed its version of a state rail psgr bill 40-3 and now it goes to the House. We'll see what takes place. Not knowing all details, there are four proposals on extending service north of OK City into KS--two daytime and two nighttime. The OK group is pushing for a daylight service which again only makes good business sense. If KS can come up w/ a funding source, then chances are good something can come from this. With Topeka cash stapped, its going to be tough.
That sounds good so far. As you say, Kansas being cash-strapped could break the deal; and Oklahome will need to get on board as well.
I've said before the daytime option is better; and I hope the four proposals are for two daily round trips. One train could make the round trip from Wichita to Kansas City and back. Two trains would be needed between Kansas City and Fort Worth, mirroring the Heartland Flyer with an evening arrival and morning departure at Fort Worth and offering a morning departure from Kansas City with an evening return from Wichita mirroring the Wichita R/T.
SFbrkmnI would certainly like to see some sort of service started for Wichita but only if it is done correct. Extending the Flyer north to where it stops here in the middle of the night makes no sense and it is going to be a hard sell for the general public. As someone in a above post stated, a daytime service would be the best way to go and a better product to promote. One of the several proposals talked about was a daytime Wichita-Kansas City service. That would be much better than the 3:AM train times in Newton. Yet another study has started on bringing service to Wichita. This has been going on for a couple yrs and is getting old. Either make a decision to do it or not. I don't care what the final verdict is but either do it or simply let it die.
Well you know in these small Plains states where there aren't very many people, your voice does carry a little more weight to it. So you might want to try a letter to an elected official here. Seems to me that Kansas and Oklahoma both need to cough up some money for this service if it is to become a reality. Both states are poor from a State Budgeting perspective and do not have a lot of money to spend on passenger rail service. I was surprised that Oklahoma found the money for the existing service.
Sam1 I was reared in Altoona, Pennsylvania, but I moved to Texas 35 years ago and have never looked back. Being from Altoona explains partly my interest in railroads. When I was in high school, Altoona saw 38 passenger train movements a day. It was a crew change point. In addition, the shops in Altoona and Hollidaysburg employed more than 3,500 men and women even as late as 1957, which is the year that I graduated from high school. Today Altoona has two passenger train movements per day (The Pennsylvanian). The Norfolk Southern still does heavy locomotive overhauls in Juniata, whilst some of the other shops are occupied by relatively small companies, but most of them are gone, along with the thousands of men and women who worked in them. The Southern Pacific had a line that ran from East Dallas north to McKinney and Sherman. It may have been the descendent of the TN&O. It ran past White Rock Lake; most of it in the White Rock Lake area has been or is being converted into a bicycle trail. The Cotton Belt runs in a southwest direction out of Wylie and Farmersville, I think, and not McKinney. If I remember correctly, it cust across the northern tier of Dallas County. It goes through Addison, just south of the airport, and eventually makes its way to the Fort Worth area. Looking at the line on Google, I cannot see whether it goes beyond Grapevine.
I was reared in Altoona, Pennsylvania, but I moved to Texas 35 years ago and have never looked back. Being from Altoona explains partly my interest in railroads. When I was in high school, Altoona saw 38 passenger train movements a day. It was a crew change point. In addition, the shops in Altoona and Hollidaysburg employed more than 3,500 men and women even as late as 1957, which is the year that I graduated from high school.
Today Altoona has two passenger train movements per day (The Pennsylvanian). The Norfolk Southern still does heavy locomotive overhauls in Juniata, whilst some of the other shops are occupied by relatively small companies, but most of them are gone, along with the thousands of men and women who worked in them.
The Southern Pacific had a line that ran from East Dallas north to McKinney and Sherman. It may have been the descendent of the TN&O. It ran past White Rock Lake; most of it in the White Rock Lake area has been or is being converted into a bicycle trail.
The Cotton Belt runs in a southwest direction out of Wylie and Farmersville, I think, and not McKinney. If I remember correctly, it cust across the northern tier of Dallas County. It goes through Addison, just south of the airport, and eventually makes its way to the Fort Worth area. Looking at the line on Google, I cannot see whether it goes beyond Grapevine.
Can't say I blame you on PA, I was very happy to leave WI. Nice in the Summer but you pay dearly for those three nice months of the year and not all of the 3 months are nice.
OK, I think the Cotton Belt is now used in part by the Kansas City Southern (through Plano and Wylie) my guess is they connect to their line somewhere east to Shreveport. That could have been former Cotton Belt. I think this is the line they were talking about for the Amtrak service to the Casinos in Shreveport from Dallas. KCS built or expanded a Intermodal yard somewhere recently along it, I read that somewhere. I got to track that down some weekend, I heard it was on the border of Plano somewhere. I see a lot of KCS doublestacks on this line. They also have the military contract for hauling equipment to and from from 1st Cav at Ft. Hood (the Dallas & East part of the contract).
Houston and Texas Central is now mostly the DART Red Line North of Mockingbird but it continues as a abandoned Railroad line North of Parker Road Station to McKinney and up to Dennison, between McKinney and Sherman it is still in use by I think DGNO. Central Expressway was named after it (it was known locally as "the Central"). Some of the cities along the route were named after Officers and relatives of the HT&C line. H&TC had some kind of passenger agreement with MKT for service North of the Red River border with OK, so I am guessing that was done at the MKT Depot in Dennison......thats all I know about it. I think it was T&NO, hard to locate it's history apart from the little blurbs online.
Sam1I was reared in Altoona, Pennsylvania, but I moved to Texas 35 years ago and have never looked back. Being from Altoona explains partly my interest in railroads. When I was in high school, Altoona saw 38 passenger train movements a day. It was a crew change point. In addition, the shops in Altoona and Hollidaysburg employed more than 3,500 men and women even as late as 1957, which is the year that I graduated from high school. Today Altoona has two passenger train movements per day (The Pennsylvanian). The Norfolk Southern still does heavy locomotive overhauls in Juniata, whilst some of the other shops are occupied by relatively small companies, but most of them are gone, along with the thousands of men and women who worked in them.
Very interesting economic/social history!!
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnP I didn't know you were from Texas, thats interesting. I thought the North South line to McKinney was former T&NO (Houston and Texas Central) or is that the wrong line? I have troubles with tracking the former SP line history in Dallas though, probably I need to buy a local rail map.
I didn't know you were from Texas, thats interesting.
I thought the North South line to McKinney was former T&NO (Houston and Texas Central) or is that the wrong line? I have troubles with tracking the former SP line history in Dallas though, probably I need to buy a local rail map.
Having lived in Dallas for 32 years prior to moving to Georgetown, I am familiar with the public transport plans for the Metroplex. I worked with many others to pass the DART referendum and, for years, was part of the citizen advisory board for the Dallas Transit System.
The Trinity Railway Express (TRE) runs from Dallas to Fort Worth over a former Rock Island line. DART deserves great credit for having bought the line when the Rock Island went belly up. At the time commuter rail, as well as light rail, was just a farfetched dream in the eyes of many Metroplex residents.
Part of the long range rail plans for the Metroplex is to run commuter trains along the former Cotton Belt from McKinney to DFW and possibly to Fort Worth, although I think Fort Worth is implementing a plan to run commuter rail from the Fort Worth Intermodal Transit Center to DFW. Whether they will enter the airport or simply connect with DART's Orange Line is still up for debate as I understand it. Many of the residents along the Cotton Belt line are up in arms over the possibility of commuter rail on the line, and they have filed numerous protests to block the plans. Some have argued that a better solution would be to build a rail line down the center of LBJ, although doing so would require massive relocations along the highway since the center strip is not much of a strip.
The TRE is owned by DART and the "T", which is Fort Worth's public transit system. Whether the TRE would run the commuter trains on the former Cotton Belt is far from being decided.
My guess is that the rail connection into DFW Airport will be via the Orange line. Running more than one rail line into the airport would not make terribly good sense.
Actually, Texas has a business income tax, although we don't call it that. It is a gross margins tax, but in effect it is an income tax.
Sam1 The direct line to DFW will be via the DART Orange light rail line, which is under construction. It is planned to have it reach the airport in 2013. It will enter the north end of the airport whereas the Trinity Railway Express runs south of the airport.
The direct line to DFW will be via the DART Orange light rail line, which is under construction. It is planned to have it reach the airport in 2013. It will enter the north end of the airport whereas the Trinity Railway Express runs south of the airport.
Yeah, I live here remember. They were planning a direct TRE build in to DFW Airport, I have not read anything about it of late. I don't think it was via the Rock Island Line. I seem to remember it would have been part of the crosstown connection from Plano to the Southwest. I see on the plans they have laid out using DART.
Then I heard they were going to link the skytrains at DFW to CenterPoint Station which I think would have been ridiculously expensive. I'm not sure they are completely happy with the Shuttle Bus / Centrepoint Station arrangement. Of course the best source would be to just ask TRE via their website if they know anything. There have been lots of rumors about DFW heavy rail connection. The Light Rail connection is the only thing planned and financed for right now.
Anyhow, here are the long range plans for Dallas:
http://www.nctcog.org/trans/mtp/2030/FS_Index.pdf
Some of this is dreamland I am willing to bet but some of it they are actively working on. UP Rail Corridor between DFW and FTW I think will happen at some point despite UP's objections. The Denton Rail line is under construction now. I've read a few Mayors comments about the Red Line Extension, what is holding that up is Sales Tax Caps on Suburbs North of Plano.
Read on Railfan.net that their was talk on the Heartland Flyer of extending the Red River Shootout train over TRE closer in to the game (I understand the problems with Amtrak using TRE). It is not beyond TRE to run special trains like that though for a day or two. They used to run a special RDC consist at the Texas State Fair just to take patrons to their cars in the far out parking lots. So while these rumors might sound fantastic, TRE has been known to really promote rail travel in the Dallas area.
Having lived in Wisconsin and Texas, IMO, Texas is more progressive with comutter rail. They just have not got all the funding worked out yet. We do not have a State Income tax and property tax increases are not popular......so that leaves just the state sales tax and the Feds for the most part.
HarveyK400 CMStPnP Texas is going to want to maintain the schedule and equipment on the existing route. It is a joint TX & OK venture. I believe Texas paid tax money to have the former equipment refurbished and at one point held lein on some of the passenger cars. I do not know if this is still the case. They have some info on the Heartland Flyer website on the equipment they use now. They are working on a plan of direct rail service into one of the DFW airport terminals via the Trinity Express Railway Service, I can't find current info on this project but I have read about it previously. I suspect it is North Texas Council of Governments long range plan. They have reconfigured and improved some of the roads on DFW Airport property recently to facility speed of transit around the airport. Here is the existing TRE DFW airport service: http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw.html They are talking about a temporary second commuter line out of Fort Worth to serve the new Cowboys Stadium on the Union Pacific, just for the SuperBowl in 2011 (North Texas Council of Governments), weather that will come about is anyones guess. TRE is also double tracking the TRE and replacing bridges eliminating grade crossings. To me, looks like the goal is eventual higher speed service between DAL and FTW. So the bottom line I think for the OKC to FTW part of the Heartland Flyer is with the investments and plans underway, Texas probably is not going to allow OK or others to mess with the equipment or schedules too much of the Heartland Flyer. Just a guess though. I too think that Texas would take the position you outlined. Extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton is just too iffy in the imperfect world or railroading. Making connections with the Southwest Ltd 90% of the time is just not good enough; and any delays northbound jeopardizes on-time service on the return.
CMStPnP Texas is going to want to maintain the schedule and equipment on the existing route. It is a joint TX & OK venture. I believe Texas paid tax money to have the former equipment refurbished and at one point held lein on some of the passenger cars. I do not know if this is still the case. They have some info on the Heartland Flyer website on the equipment they use now. They are working on a plan of direct rail service into one of the DFW airport terminals via the Trinity Express Railway Service, I can't find current info on this project but I have read about it previously. I suspect it is North Texas Council of Governments long range plan. They have reconfigured and improved some of the roads on DFW Airport property recently to facility speed of transit around the airport. Here is the existing TRE DFW airport service: http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw.html They are talking about a temporary second commuter line out of Fort Worth to serve the new Cowboys Stadium on the Union Pacific, just for the SuperBowl in 2011 (North Texas Council of Governments), weather that will come about is anyones guess. TRE is also double tracking the TRE and replacing bridges eliminating grade crossings. To me, looks like the goal is eventual higher speed service between DAL and FTW. So the bottom line I think for the OKC to FTW part of the Heartland Flyer is with the investments and plans underway, Texas probably is not going to allow OK or others to mess with the equipment or schedules too much of the Heartland Flyer. Just a guess though.
Texas is going to want to maintain the schedule and equipment on the existing route. It is a joint TX & OK venture. I believe Texas paid tax money to have the former equipment refurbished and at one point held lein on some of the passenger cars. I do not know if this is still the case. They have some info on the Heartland Flyer website on the equipment they use now.
They are working on a plan of direct rail service into one of the DFW airport terminals via the Trinity Express Railway Service, I can't find current info on this project but I have read about it previously. I suspect it is North Texas Council of Governments long range plan. They have reconfigured and improved some of the roads on DFW Airport property recently to facility speed of transit around the airport.
Here is the existing TRE DFW airport service:
http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw.html
They are talking about a temporary second commuter line out of Fort Worth to serve the new Cowboys Stadium on the Union Pacific, just for the SuperBowl in 2011 (North Texas Council of Governments), weather that will come about is anyones guess.
TRE is also double tracking the TRE and replacing bridges eliminating grade crossings. To me, looks like the goal is eventual higher speed service between DAL and FTW.
So the bottom line I think for the OKC to FTW part of the Heartland Flyer is with the investments and plans underway, Texas probably is not going to allow OK or others to mess with the equipment or schedules too much of the Heartland Flyer. Just a guess though.
I too think that Texas would take the position you outlined. Extending the Heartland Flyer to Newton is just too iffy in the imperfect world or railroading. Making connections with the Southwest Ltd 90% of the time is just not good enough; and any delays northbound jeopardizes on-time service on the return.
The Texas DOT is funding a portion of the Heartland Flyer because it services several stations in Texas. It is not likely to put up money to fund an operation into Kansas or continue funding an operation that is seriously impaired by extending it into Kansas.
The elevation of the TRE at selected points, as well as the double tracking, is designed to eliminate several at grade street crossings that have seen several fatal accidents. The line, which was the former Rock Island line, between Dallas and Fort Worth, also hoists BNSF trains. The increased capacity will enable to line to handle more trains (TRE and BNSF). In addition, it may make it possible for Amtrak to run the Texas Eagle from Fort Worth to Dallas and vice versa on the TRE as opposed to the UP. That would eliminate the backing into and out of the station in Fort Worth, which would simplify operations and reduce the time required to get the Eagle into and out of Fort Worth. Amtrak has run at least one test train on the TRE.
The current top speed on the TRE is 60 mph. Whether the double tracking will permit higher speeds is problematic. There are seven regular stations between Dallas Union Station and Fort Worth T&P Station or an average of one station every 4.7 miles. As long as the trains serve each of those stations, which is likely to remain the case for the foreseeable future, the TRE may be looking to step up the speed somewhat, but having to stop and start every 4.7 miles does not lend it self to high speed running.
CMStPnPTexas is going to want to maintain the schedule and equipment on the existing route. It is a joint TX & OK venture. I believe Texas paid tax money to have the former equipment refurbished and at one point held lein on some of the passenger cars. I do not know if this is still the case. They have some info on the Heartland Flyer website on the equipment they use now. They are working on a plan of direct rail service into one of the DFW airport terminals via the Trinity Express Railway Service, I can't find current info on this project but I have read about it previously. I suspect it is North Texas Council of Governments long range plan. They have reconfigured and improved some of the roads on DFW Airport property recently to facility speed of transit around the airport. Here is the existing TRE DFW airport service: http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/dfw.html They are talking about a temporary second commuter line out of Fort Worth to serve the new Cowboys Stadium on the Union Pacific, just for the SuperBowl in 2011 (North Texas Council of Governments), weather that will come about is anyones guess. TRE is also double tracking the TRE and replacing bridges eliminating grade crossings. To me, looks like the goal is eventual higher speed service between DAL and FTW. So the bottom line I think for the OKC to FTW part of the Heartland Flyer is with the investments and plans underway, Texas probably is not going to allow OK or others to mess with the equipment or schedules too much of the Heartland Flyer. Just a guess though.
Harvey:
Good questions! Sorry I don't have an answer. From the way I read the on-line information and from the wording of the press releases as quote on radio/TV. It seems that it is a seperate schedule. My best guess is that the local folks are leaving the mechanics and scheduling to AMTRAK to sort out the fine points. As has been presented in the media here in the Wichita area the train runs as one train from KC to Topeks, Newton, Wichita, Ark City, Ponca City, Ok and on south to terminus at OKC, OK.
I have seen no real specifics as yet as to equipment, scheduled stops, and so on. I was hopoing there would be others who read this FOrum that might have more and better information as to what was going on. I realize that from the web sites there is a building movement locally for this service. It could be considered good news that the Kansas State DOT was getting involved in the area referencing highway/road traffic issues.
The hope was that someone could maybe post some more details here referencing the Northern Flyer proposal.
wholemansamfp1943, I am glad you posted this. I knew there was talk of a route extension. The only major concern I have is equipment and frequency of trains. I know the Heartland Flyer starts at OKC and heads to Fort Worth and then leaves for the return trip later in the day. This will be too long if the route is extended. I think Amtrak will have to add some more Superliner coaches and maybe a lounge to each train. They may have to use some of the Hi-Level coaches if they have any more available.
samfp1943,
I am glad you posted this. I knew there was talk of a route extension. The only major concern I have is equipment and frequency of trains. I know the Heartland Flyer starts at OKC and heads to Fort Worth and then leaves for the return trip later in the day. This will be too long if the route is extended.
I think Amtrak will have to add some more Superliner coaches and maybe a lounge to each train. They may have to use some of the Hi-Level coaches if they have any more available.
The Heartland Flyer conceivably could be extended on its present schedule to turn at Newton, so no additional cars would be required; but that's a hell-of-a connection and can't be held for a late Southwest and vice versa. What happens with stranded passengers? There is a connecting Oklahoma City-Tulsa-Kansas City bus as it is.
Switching a coach and sleeper is another matter. Would this be done by the respective crews?
Always questions.
Harvey
Will
What are they smoking in Wichita? If the Flyer schedules are maintained and the Southwest is adjusted only slightly, a connection at Newton, even through cars, would seem feasible; but the trains would pass Wichita in the wee hours! Is this another railfan effort to bring back the Texas Chief? I can't imagine the Chamber of Commerce getting excited about this. Furthermore, I don't see enough of an overnight market between Kansas City and Oklahoma City and Ft Worth, and between Chicago and Oklahoma City to justify a train for the extra 198 miles.
By comparison, a day train would serve Topeka and Wichita at at more reasonable hours. Using the 1976 Lone Star and 2008 schedules, an 8:00am dp from Kansas City would dp Wichita at 12:30pm, dp Oklahoma City at 4:00pm, and ar Ft Worth at 8:10pm. Returning, a train leaving Ft Worth at 8:00am would ar Oklahoma City at 12:10pm, Dp Wichita at 3:51pm, and ar Kansas City at 8:20pm.
I posted earlier that extending the Heartland Flyer to San Antonio would allow the Sunset-Eagle to be routed from Houston by way of Ft Worth and Midland to El Paso for better Arizona timings. Morning trains from Dallas-Ft Worth to Houston and San Antonio returning in the afternoon would balance Texas service. Houston-Austin-San Antonio through service may be workable despite circuitry.
I really have no idea, but I would imagine air service isn't so great?
I suspect if it was a through train like the former Amtrak "Lone Star" was....... the runtime to Chicago might be faster then the Texas Eagle. Just a hunch.
If that hunch on faster speed is correct, it might make more sense to reroute the Texas Eagle to this Western Route Split a small section to run to Dallas or get Trinity Railway Express to run it as a cross platform express train connection to Dallas.
This would create an additional frequency on the Chicago-Kansas City Route and the Kansas City to Fort Worth route.
schlimm Sounds like a pretty sensible, regional route.
Sounds like a pretty sensible, regional route.
Wichita area movers and shakers seem to really be behind this, and with KDOT also on board; it would seem that the proposed Northern Flyer has a lot going for it. Certainly, KC to Ft Worth are popular destinations from anywhere along the route. The key will be timely and good scheduled service for enroute points.
Earlier today there was a story on one of the local News Stations referencing th economic potential for the Wichita area as a benefit from the operation of the proposed Northern Flyer Amtrak passenger service.
For those unfamiliar with the proposal, THe Northern Flyer, is a proposed extention of the current AMTRAK Heartland Flyer service from Ft. Worth, Tx. to Okla City, OK.; which is currently celebrating ten years of successful operations. The Northern Flyer is proposed adjunct service to continue north from Okla.City,OK. to Kansas City, Ks. via Wichita and Newton,Ks.
Currently, the Kansas State DOT has made application for funds to facilitate signalization of highwat/road crossings to upgrade to passenger train speeds. (Currrently, parts of the line are upgraded as part of the BNSF Transcon, Through Wichita, and then south toward Arkansas City area and into Oklahoma where it is mostly single tracked and normally signaled. So will some political will, and local support the proposal seems to be moving ahead.
Edit: If anyone has any further info to update this proposed new AMTRAK service, It would be appreciated. There is apparently a goodly amount of interest in this proposed service in this area, and in Oklahoma also. Thanks in advance!
If you search, Northern Flyer Alliance, there is a lot of information available as with the web site: http://www.northflyer.org/about_us.shtml
Here is a link to the proposed routing: http://www.northflyer.org/proposal.shtml
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.