henry6 Why should the country and its population be deprived of one type of transportation but favored with others? And one of the things that I am saying is that the whole transportation systems has to be revised and integrated and portioned and partitioned and whatever else. Accept that we subsidize all the other forms of transportation and therefore, there should be no reason not to include rail. And also accept the fact that a lot of rail has been subsidized or othewise supported by our governments since 1830. Our whole transportation system has to be almost reinvented. The way we've thought about trains and roads and waterways and airports has to be rethought. In Europe private enterprise operates airports and water ports, but all you guys spout is the socialistic way they run thier railroads! Get real!
Why should the country and its population be deprived of one type of transportation but favored with others? And one of the things that I am saying is that the whole transportation systems has to be revised and integrated and portioned and partitioned and whatever else. Accept that we subsidize all the other forms of transportation and therefore, there should be no reason not to include rail. And also accept the fact that a lot of rail has been subsidized or othewise supported by our governments since 1830. Our whole transportation system has to be almost reinvented. The way we've thought about trains and roads and waterways and airports has to be rethought. In Europe private enterprise operates airports and water ports, but all you guys spout is the socialistic way they run thier railroads! Get real!
Look. If you want to subsidize a train so that a few people can get to some place like Bradley SD then go ahead.
"Our whole transportation system has to be almost reinvented. Sheeesh! Panic Redoing for Panic Times is it now? The whole system is now so bad that some have even advocated the total tearing up of all the rails, airports and highways to build everything a la The Jetsons for crying out loud.There was a kind of squawk going on by all these people like Barry Schumaker back then in the 1970's that small would be the key in the future--because even then the transportation system was in ICU. I do believe that, like a certain poet once said, it is arrogant of a generation to believe that it is going down to destruction in front of the greatest forces unleashed by Nature, God or whatever. So lets cut the pre-apocalyptic rhetoric. There really is no need for this type of rhetoric in the first place.
Electrification of all the rail system, VHSR, I'm going to throw out heliports for VTOL shuttle craft, Wire by Remote cars, all kindsa stuff being looked into. Solar Power short commute vehicles----we really do not need to feed into some giant existentialist angst bucket now. I've worked with one fellow back in the early '80's who went across the US with a Solar Powered trike that he wired up for computers even then---and he emailed me all over the place. Maybe we also should encourage private--there is that dang word again ---innovation as well?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 Its not a matter that we should have it because others have it but because we need it. We need it to stay competitive with the rest of the world. We hear from so many rah rah Americans who are just feeling good about themselves and thier past rather than seeing the future for those who haven't arrived yet. I know, I know, if we need it, then somebody who can make a buck doing it should do it; and if he can't make a buck, we don't need it. I just don't buy into that self serving complacency. We send jobs overseas, we import parts and whole products, we borrow money from overseas, we are allowing overseas to overtake us. When are we going to take our own fate into our own hands? If we don't, then we don't have to worry about paying for it as we will be some other country's constituants.
Its not a matter that we should have it because others have it but because we need it. We need it to stay competitive with the rest of the world. We hear from so many rah rah Americans who are just feeling good about themselves and thier past rather than seeing the future for those who haven't arrived yet. I know, I know, if we need it, then somebody who can make a buck doing it should do it; and if he can't make a buck, we don't need it. I just don't buy into that self serving complacency. We send jobs overseas, we import parts and whole products, we borrow money from overseas, we are allowing overseas to overtake us. When are we going to take our own fate into our own hands? If we don't, then we don't have to worry about paying for it as we will be some other country's constituants.
But it is a matter of coming up with something that some of us could sink our teeth into!----give me some kind of business plan or summat. How would you finance the dang thing---and I am not doing this to be self complacent for pete sake. All this is doing is starting to come across like there is really no plan. 'rah rah americans'? self serving complacency? Where? A prophecy of economic doom if we do not do this right away. Again---prove to me that there is a NEED. As if HSR by itself will rescue the US from certain doom----?!
'When are we going to take our fate into our own hands' Prove to this little one that doing it the way Europe is is taking it into your own hands. Why does everything have to be done like right now? This does not work--all this is doing is still coming across like a 'teens 'waaah!!'
Sheeesh
How do you think that the goverment will fund a HSR project? Much like everything they do these days, is will be with borrowed money from overseas. So right there is a reason to not build it. Having HSR or not has nothing to do with being competive on the world market, that is a sham that HSR cheerleaders like to shout, but in the real world means nothing. Your are right however, that this county has some serious problems, but the lack of HSR is not one of them.
An "expensive model collector"
blownout cylinder henry6 When people point and shake thier fingers at us pro rail passenger advocates, be it HSR or what, for comparing the US to European or Asian systems and tell us we are not Europe or Asia, I can only think that they are more interested in saving thier status quo butts rather than meeting the world head on. I mean if Europe or Japan or China can run high speed passenger and higher than our frieght speeds, then why can't we have a duel system. I hate to point to the legal trade as placing fear in the pocketbooks of railroads and government, but that is often the case. If you don't want to run a company to provide the service you are named for, then go make pizzas! Good rant here! The only problem here is that this sounds more like a 'teen's waah about the fact that everyone else is wearing Tommy Hilfiger and why can't I?!?!? I want to see a business model that'll work without necessarily wacking the taxpayer such that whatever economic benefits aren't clobbered by the tax rates needed. There seems to be a lot more people living in Europe than here remember-----
henry6 When people point and shake thier fingers at us pro rail passenger advocates, be it HSR or what, for comparing the US to European or Asian systems and tell us we are not Europe or Asia, I can only think that they are more interested in saving thier status quo butts rather than meeting the world head on. I mean if Europe or Japan or China can run high speed passenger and higher than our frieght speeds, then why can't we have a duel system. I hate to point to the legal trade as placing fear in the pocketbooks of railroads and government, but that is often the case. If you don't want to run a company to provide the service you are named for, then go make pizzas!
When people point and shake thier fingers at us pro rail passenger advocates, be it HSR or what, for comparing the US to European or Asian systems and tell us we are not Europe or Asia, I can only think that they are more interested in saving thier status quo butts rather than meeting the world head on. I mean if Europe or Japan or China can run high speed passenger and higher than our frieght speeds, then why can't we have a duel system. I hate to point to the legal trade as placing fear in the pocketbooks of railroads and government, but that is often the case. If you don't want to run a company to provide the service you are named for, then go make pizzas!
Good rant here! The only problem here is that this sounds more like a 'teen's waah about the fact that everyone else is wearing Tommy Hilfiger and why can't I?!?!?
I want to see a business model that'll work without necessarily wacking the taxpayer such that whatever economic benefits aren't clobbered by the tax rates needed. There seems to be a lot more people living in Europe than here remember-----
Thank you! I can't stand the argument of "Europe and Asia have high speed rail, so America should too."
1. I agree about the Budd 10 and 6's, especially since many already incurred the expense for conversion to head end power and retention toilets. That money should not have been wasted, and those cars kept as a reserve fleet. Ditto Budd coaches. And diners and lounges.
2. I too was a Slumbercoach fan, rode them on the Denver Zephyr, the de-Pullmaned Century, after Amtrak's start the Broadway, the Backhawk, the Mainstreeter or North Coast Limited, a B&O train between Pittsburgh and Washington, the New England States many times, the Wolverine, and the "Steel Fleet" predicessor to the Lake Shore. But Amtrak found converting to retention toilets was to be extremely expensive and amount to a major rebuilding. I have to forgive them.
3. Most of your other comments make sense. Some of the best scenery between Portland and Oakland is now at night anyway.
I am all for high-speed rail, but I favor an incremental approach, that improves freight capacity at the same time, and that gets the most for the whole country for each amount spent. I continue to think a national network remains absolutely necessary. I also favor lots of coordibnation with buses.
So now we can blame Bush for the lack of leadership in Amtrak----
And we now have people who think governments have a role in HSR----
Yes, its a known fact that Amtrak was designed to relieve American railroads of having to run passenger trains. And that it was thought that with huge sums of monies going to highway and airline maarketing, why, then, the passenger train will just fade out of existance. It was a payoff to big business railroading to rid them of the albatross so that they could capture the gold of freight traffic with no encomberance. What the solons of public service failed to realize was that the public wanted and needed rail passenger service despite thier efforts to sell them the alternatives. Nixon and company crafted the machinery to remove the burden of passengers from the private sector with the idea that it need not be funded, peopled, or otherwise supported because it was supposed to just go away. Those who were selected to serve were chosen for the publicity of thier past endeavors, given a rah rah cheer, then litrally turned loose. When these leaders came back to the Feds with the story that passenger trains and passenger services were both needed and wanted, they lost favor and were soon gone.
Dam..., oops! I had better say "Darn", to keep the SD-MN-WI moderators off my a**. Such silliness! Anyhoo, your post is great! I travel on the "Empire Builder" a lot. I do like the "Superliner" sleepers. I also prefer the "Viewliner" sleepers, with their limited capacity a given, and the surly attendants, in the east, a given, too. The "Viewliners" could do without the in-room TV's, IMO. Our "Superliner" 'Sightseer Lounges' are rarely filled, given the price of beer ($5.50 / bottle!), but the NPS volunteers give a bit of a break, getting the kids to look out the windows, instead of playing board games. "Wow! An antelope!", "Wow! A cow!". I was a Budd "Slumbercoach" fan. Lots of capacity, compared to the "Viewliners". Cheaper, too. Is there a "Retirement Home" for such cars? Canada has truly demonstrated that they aren't ready for retirement. Amtrak's full-dome car, that runs on the "Adirondack" during the fall foliage season, could be added to the CZ. It does need a new paint scheme, but they could do that when they take the plastic wrap off of it. Ugly, that was! There are other "full domes" around. The "Capitol Limited" doesn't need "Superliners". You can tell SEN Byrd that! Lot's of luck!
Okay. What/where are the old cars in the "boneyard"? Might even pry Mr. Boardman out of DC to look at them (doubt it!). Has he ever been on an Amtrak train? David Gunn, he is not! Maybe if he gets a permanent appointment... Just some thoughts.
I for one still believe that Amtraks biggest problem was the far to early retirement of the cars they received from the RRs at the beginning of Amtrak.
Canada has proven that the Budd cars that were built in the 1950s can serve well today just as the did when first purchased. They are are going through a second extension of life at the present time which should keep them running until at least 2035. The bodies have held up extremely well and the interiors though expensive are easily replaced. HEP was already installed in these cars years ago and even all liquid waste is contained within the cars and pumped out in route at certain station stops. .
Amtrak was to anxious to show the world that they could bring new equipment to the public when certain routes should probably be still operating with Heritage equipment. For one thing we would not be wasting money on additional Viewliners. We would still have plenty of 10-6s in service to meet any needs for holiday rush and additional sleepers would be available for eastern trains. The Capitol Limited could still be operated with Budd consists instead of Superliners freeing up those cars for western trains.
For very little money from Amtraks budget they could make minor track improvements that would speed up a number of trains making it possible to speed up certain western schedules. I am thinking of the Coast Starlight in particular. Thers is no reason that four sets of equipment should be tied up for this train when with a modest speed up three sets of equipment could do the job. Look at the timing of the train today between Oakland and Portland. The SP Cascade and Shasta Daylights operated on faster timings then todays Coast Starlight and that was in the 1950"s. Other than the Coast line ther is not much scenery to be seen on this route and a substantial speed up would free up one set of equipment and encourage more people to take the train than do today because of the trains time keeping.
The Southwest Chief could also be speeded up another route that does not match the time keeping of the 1950 era Super Chief or El Capitan. Even the Empire Builder could be speeded up to match the time keeping of the 1954 train at least.
The California Zephyr is a different story it is a train that promotes scenery and should be sold with that in mind. One Superliner lounge on this train between Denver and Salt Lake and Reno and Oakland does not do the train justice. A second Superliner lounge should be added to each train for the two portions of the trip I mentioned. Everytime I have traveled on the California Zephyr there are people just waiting to find a seat in the lounge to view the scenery. It is always overcrowded. By speeding up other trains in the west it should be possible to come up with four additional Superliner lounges for the California Zephyr. I don't know how many times I have heard passengers travelling on the California Zephyr complain about having spent all that money on the trip and can't even get a seat in the lounge to see the scenery. Maybe Amtrak should have kept the other two former Santa Fe lounges and rebuilt them for the Oakland - Reno part of the trip on the California Zephyr. Something seriously needs to be done about the lack of lounge space on this train. If people just want transportation between Chicago and San Francisco they will fly. Remember even Greyhound is faster than the California Zephyr or Coast Starlight.
Al - in - Stockton
I really think we should reject the whole "Nixon-conspired-to-fail-Amtrak" theory.
History doesn't add this up. I sure would like to know how they were able to immediately purchase Turboliners and continue the Metroliner if that were really true. And the E-series electrics, and AEM-7, and Amfleet series one and two, and Viewliner, and Superliner.
Oh, and while I'm at it, allowing a pro-passenger-rail firebrand like the great Graham Claytor to run the system at all.
I really think this theory should be laid to rest.
Amtrak was built on the recognition by the USA that other countries already realized: that passenger rail is subsidized just like all other passenger modes are and should not be allowed to become extinct.
BaltACD The one thing that everyone continues to overlook about Amtrak. From it's inception by Congress it has been designed to fail. The fact that it still exists is a testament of leadership to all those that have held the top leadership position....imagine defying Congress's intent for the past 38 years.
The one thing that everyone continues to overlook about Amtrak. From it's inception by Congress it has been designed to fail. The fact that it still exists is a testament of leadership to all those that have held the top leadership position....imagine defying Congress's intent for the past 38 years.
Designed to fail? Maybe! A better assessment can be found in the program which was laid on Amtrak's management. Had the architects eliminated the long distance trains, which provide a relatively small share of the revenues whilst eating a disproportionate share of the operating expenses, and concentrated on a few corridors, where passenger trains have a chance for success, the results probably would have been different.
With some minor tweaking of the fare and cost structure, Amtrak could cover its operating expenses and contribute a significant amount to the fixed costs on its relatively short corridor routes.
Unfortunately, Amtrak is a political animal, which contains the seeds of its inability to be at least a partially commercial success. It has been whipsawed by political forces rather than run as a response to market demand for passenger rail services.
Ironically, many of the people in the advocacy groups, who profess to love trains, have contributed to Amtrak's many problems through their 1950s. perspectives. They keep insisting on running trains based on a bygone model that have no chance whatsoever of being viable.
I just reread Phillips' editorial as well as some others by him in recent issues. "Scathing" hardly seems an appropriate term; it was critical, certainly, overly impatient perhaps.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Several people have noted that Nixon's team met (not very) secretly to plan the Rail Passeger Service Act, which was designed to take over the money-losing passenger business from the railroads and then in turn quietly go under (designed to fail). Louis Menk of the BN was upset when Fortune exposed the scheme. The history of Amtrak is rife with Congressional interference, chronic under-funding and mostly lackluster management. It's a miracle it has survived this long.
jeatonI wouldn't necessarily say it was designed to fail, but it certainly wasn't designed to suceed.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I wouldn't necessarily say it was designed to fail, but it certainly wasn't designed to suceed.
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
Sorry, but I don't think dirigibles will fly! (Groan! Sorry...) Maybe if they can fill them with all the "excess" carbon dioxide in the air, saving mankind (and polar bears) from a horrible fate...
Here, in Shelby, MT we have a horse feed lot, containing thousands of aged/un-wanted/wild horses. They await a truck trip to the Fort MacLeod, Alberta abbatoir and a nice flight on "Air Canada" to France, where they will be consumed by the denizens therein. Has anyone thought of hooking these critters up to wagons, or just getting on their backs to go to the grocery store? Might work. I'm sure GM could figure out a way to build wagons... Well, maybe. With Studebaker gone, there ain't much expertise in the area. Come on Fiat..., er...Chrysler. You can do it!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
henry6By the way, I don't think Phillips said anything more in his column this month than that he was dissapointed in that Boardman has not been public and vocal.
henry6Thank goodness our Forefathers never thought that way or we'd still be back in the 1700's socially and economically.
henry6Working in the private sector is much different than in the public sector, and in this case Boardman has an extra burden of being appointed for only one year which ends this month.
henry6 You don't have to agree with him, but you can't attack his integrity and sincerity.
oltmannd4merroad4manOK, I give. What hasn't Amtrak done in the past year?I'll give you two. One, he said there were too many employees just "going through the motions" and that those people needed to find new work. Anybody let go yet? Any management shake up? Nope. \!
4merroad4manOK, I give. What hasn't Amtrak done in the past year?
The general superintentdant of the pacific division, along with some other high ranking managers from the pacific side, were terminated on 10/12/09.
The President of Amtrak is ont the same as President of BNSF or CSX or anyother railroad for that matter. Working in the private sector is much different than in the public sector, and in this case Boardman has an extra burden of being appointed for only one year which ends this month. He has worked in the political arena for years in NY from municipal to state elevations but, as I said earlier, Washington is different. There are many reasons he has not been vocal or public especially over the last six or so months. So what happens by the end of this month is very important and is the tell tale.
By the way, I don't think Phillips said anything more in his column this month than that he was dissapointed in that Boardman has not been public and vocal. As has been indicated, Phillips is a well respected and accepted journalist in the transportation field and not a contimporary yellow hack looking to kill somebody's career over a misplaced hat. You don't have to agree with him, but you can't attack his integrity and sincerity.
As for HSP and VHSP being "pie in the sky". Yes, in this country it probably is. We are a country that could benefit greatly in so many ways should we have such rail service. But since we are hung up on it being a private enterprise device to garner big profits (lets face it, 20% or less return on investment within a year in this country is a turn off in the private sector) or it shouldn't be considered because it evidently isn't worth it. Thank goodness our Forefathers never thought that way or we'd still be back in the 1700's socially and economically. And it's not just high speed rail that we need think about in these terms in this country.
Sam1How Amtrak ever gets a competent executive to run a national passenger railroad whilst dealing with the politicians and others who are convinced that they know best how to run the system amazes me.
4merroad4man oltmanndSam1So why should I conclude that Phillips has any inside knowledge to buttress his opinions? Why should I believe that he is in a position to assess Mr. Boardman's leadership skills?None needed and Phillips stated so in his column. The judgement of lack of leadership is based primarily on what Boardman has said publicly measured against what Amtrak hasn't done in the past year. Pretty fair yardstick, I think. OK, I give. What hasn't Amtrak done in the past year? They haven't killed off any trains, and in some instances, improved their service options, i.e., a long overdue restoration of checked baggage service at austin, TX, they have, I believe either ordered new baggage cars and/or are rebuilding some in Beech Grove, they are restoring P40's to service and some badly needed Superliners. They settled, for now their Union contracts for the first time in 11 years, and according to Mr. Boardman, are finalizing a capital request aimed specifically at acquisition of new equipment. They have conducted route studies for reestablishment of various routes, are still working on Las Vegas service and seem to be on the verge of retaking LA's troubled Metrolink operation. Oh yes, I believe the on time performance for the system is up as well, but someone can correct me on that one. Amtrak always leaves something to be desired, but so does every railroad in the country. Amtrak is moving forward, albeit without Hollywood spotlights and neon signs to signal the activity. I guess my point is that Mr. Boardman needn't report to anyone except Congress and the DOT, and to a certain degree, his workforce, and in so doing, he can let Amtrak's work be his report and resume.
oltmanndSam1So why should I conclude that Phillips has any inside knowledge to buttress his opinions? Why should I believe that he is in a position to assess Mr. Boardman's leadership skills?None needed and Phillips stated so in his column. The judgement of lack of leadership is based primarily on what Boardman has said publicly measured against what Amtrak hasn't done in the past year. Pretty fair yardstick, I think.
Sam1So why should I conclude that Phillips has any inside knowledge to buttress his opinions? Why should I believe that he is in a position to assess Mr. Boardman's leadership skills?
OK, I give. What hasn't Amtrak done in the past year? They haven't killed off any trains, and in some instances, improved their service options, i.e., a long overdue restoration of checked baggage service at austin, TX, they have, I believe either ordered new baggage cars and/or are rebuilding some in Beech Grove, they are restoring P40's to service and some badly needed Superliners. They settled, for now their Union contracts for the first time in 11 years, and according to Mr. Boardman, are finalizing a capital request aimed specifically at acquisition of new equipment. They have conducted route studies for reestablishment of various routes, are still working on Las Vegas service and seem to be on the verge of retaking LA's troubled Metrolink operation. Oh yes, I believe the on time performance for the system is up as well, but someone can correct me on that one.
Amtrak always leaves something to be desired, but so does every railroad in the country. Amtrak is moving forward, albeit without Hollywood spotlights and neon signs to signal the activity.
I guess my point is that Mr. Boardman needn't report to anyone except Congress and the DOT, and to a certain degree, his workforce, and in so doing, he can let Amtrak's work be his report and resume.
Spot on! A key point to keep in mind is that the leader of Amtrak has to continuously cover his or her back from an attack by 535 legislators, as well as the White House, who are convinced that they know more about running Amtrak than the management team.
I understand that Amtrak wants to run the Texas Eagle through to LA on a daily basis, kill the Sunset Limited, and offer a day train between San Antonio and New Orleans. I further understand that they were ready to implement it this fall, but were blocked by local politicians, with help for their Congressional pals, who did not like the plan.
How Amtrak ever gets a competent executive to run a national passenger railroad whilst dealing with the politicians and others who are convinced that they know best how to run the system amazes me.
aegrotatioFor high-speed rail nationwide I don't think we need to worry too much about Boardman and Amtrak.The advocates for high-speed rail met last month in Washington and they all agreed that it is best served as a system independent of Amtrak (and the other railroads for that matter) and by private companies with public subsidy.That's pie-in-the-sky, but I have hopes.
For high-speed rail nationwide I don't think we need to worry too much about Boardman and Amtrak.
The advocates for high-speed rail met last month in Washington and they all agreed that it is best served as a system independent of Amtrak (and the other railroads for that matter) and by private companies with public subsidy.
That's pie-in-the-sky, but I have hopes.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.