Today's Binghamton, NY newspaper:
http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090503/NEWS01/905030379&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Today's Binghamton, NY newspaper: http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20090503/NEWS01/905030379&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL
It's just more political posturing. Nothing will come of it as is usual. This administration would rather spend money on buzzing pedestrians at the World Trade Center Site in lower Manhattan with 747s and F-16s than dao anything for either NYC or NYS.
Irv
For those who don't live in Greater Binghamton or the Southern Tier of NY there seems to be little understanding of what a new passenger servcie could mean and how it should...and can...be implimented. Times have changed greatly since 1970 and those changes have been discussed at length many times in many places.
What is most bothersome about what is happening is that the Amtrak study is looking at service to Binghamton then to Syracuse. This is not the geography which should be studied but rather the population base west of Binghamton including Owego, Waverly, Elmira, Corning and Hornell,NY and Sayre and Athens, PA is. This is the historic economic area most tied to Binghamton and has the poplulation base to support any Binghamton to New York service via Scranton. In addition small cities and college towns 25 miles on either side of the rail line west of Binghamton, as well as places like Cortland and Norwhich, even Oneonta, would benefit from the service as well as benefit the train service with feeder bus services.
Syracuse already has good passenger rail service and is slated for a High Speed Rail upgrade based on State and Federal programs already announced. The route Syracuse to BInghamton would consume the better part of or more than two hours (especially with a stop in Cortland) and not give Syracuse passengers any benefit. The population base between Binghamton and Syracuse in miniscule compared to the population base of New York and Pennsylvania west of Binghamton. I fear that Amtrak's study concentrating on this route will have a negative impact on the concept of rail passenger service for Bingahmton.
The Southern Tier Route would also link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via connections west and north reattaching the Southern Tier of New York to the rest of the state and the nation. Use of historical knowledge here would go a long way in providing the population and business of the Southern Tier with a real and prosporous future.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Henry:
As much as I would like to see train service return to BGM, I don't think there is enough population to interest Amtrak. Perhaps a NYS funded commuter train along the route Phoebe used to run between BGM & BUF would be more apropriate.
NYS even already owns some trains.
How in the world could passenger train service on the Southern Tier possibly justify itself? NY 17 getting all jammed up thru Painted Post these days? If ever there was an peristently economically stagnent region in the country.....
NYC to Scanton, maybe. ...if NJ decides to put back the cutoff. I-80 is pretty crowded in NJ. Then on to Binghamton? That's a stretch. What's the market? Binghamton to NYC? How could trip times via Scranton even come close to competing to driving NY 17 to the NYS Thruway? If its the hassle, then why not just drive to Port Jervis or Suffern and hop on the train there?
What next? Albany to Binghamton via Oneonta?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I have to take issue with your use of the phrase "peristently economically stagnent".
While it is true that Binghamton, like much of the Northeast, is in decline, it has not always been so. Binghamton University in particular and the SUNY System in general are highly respected in the academic community. It was the birthplace of IBM, Endicott Johnson, Link Flight Simulation, Dick's Sporting Goods, and the Ansco division of GAF Corporation. One of the original Link trainers is on display in the Smithsonian. It currently has a systems integration facility owned by Lockeed Martin. It used to be served by 3 different railroads. The Erie, The Lackawanna, and The Delaware and Hudson. All three had passenger service.
On November 27th 1913, the first "official" wireless transmission to a moving train was transmitted from Scranton, PA towards the train traveling to Binghamton, NY at 60 miles per hour. In all, 350 words representing several pieces of news were clearly picked up by the operator aboard the train. One of the 4 towers used still stands beside the Binghamton Lackawanna Station.
So, while I agree that the return of passenger service anytime in the near future is unlikely, I found the contempt for the area that was obvious in your post offensive.
I also take umbrage with "peristently economically stagnent." Yeah Don, I know you work long hours until the times you can post, and I too have posted sleepy, but a quick spell check would give the critics less to work with.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
No, Binghamton will not by itself support train service to New York City. Highway conditons and congestion, especially in the Metropolitan area, are not favorable for many drivers, parking is outrageous, and while gas is now "cheap" at $2.15 a gallon there is no guarantee that it will stay that way (in fact, history proves different). The Southern Tier of New York has to have a viable transportation source beyond the crumbling interstate highway system. BTW, there is no direct air service to NYC, only buses which are plagued by the clogged highways. Used to be a three and a half hour trip to the city, now try it.
Following is part of a conversation I am having with others involved:
No one seems to understand. Herb Landow said in the Press, twice now, that Bingahmton will not support a train to New York City and he is right. It needs further support from adjacent population centers. If Syracuse and Cortland are the only places surveyed, as was stated in the Press and has been talked about by others, then the proper population base that will support a train to New York from Binghamton will not be surveyed. Syracuse has train service and will get the new High Speed Train service. Cortland does not have a significant population. Surveying that area will not support the idea of taking a train through Binghamton to New York City. But surveying from Deposit. NY west to Hornell and 25 to 30 miles either side of the New York/Pennsylvania border will survey those most effected and most likely to support the service. It they say they won't support the service, fine. But if they say they will, then Binghamton will have a train that is supported by other than Binghamton...the way the economics of railroading works. Doing a survey from Binghamton to Syracuse will not reach the people who would be most effected and most likely to use the service but will only show that there is very little support for such service. Pennsylvania and New Jersey Transit are working on rebuilding the lines across New Jersey and the Poconos which will provide service into Scranton. Getting from Scranton to Binghamton will be the next step. But Binghamton to New York via Scranton needs a population support. That support will come from the Southern Tier, not from Cortland and Syracuse. If it is as has been mentioned, that we are looking at an Amtrak train from Buffalo and the west, then the whole of the Southern Tier would benefit with service to and from Buffalo, Hornell, Corning, Elmira, Waverly and Owego through Binghamton and Scranton, a much larger population base, and a population that is being left out by the Buffalo-Rochester-Syracuse-Utica-Albany High Speed Corridor. It is more than just a train we're looking at but the economic future of the entier Southern Tier! I am not trying to be a crank or crackpot on this subject. I am trying to point out that the area, our area, needs this train service and to get it we must kniow we have the support of our area. Syracuse already's got thier's, we've got to get ours..trains and all!
The Syracuse route does not make sense.
Tying in an East-West route along the Southern Tier with connections to Scranton and the hopeful NJT route to NYC along the Cutoff would be a superb solution.
Syracuse is close enough for a connector line or even, heaven-forbid, Thruway bus service, but East/West Southern Tier along the lines upgraded in the early 1990s could go a long way for the Southern Tier. This could be former Erie-Lackawanna, NYS&W, and other major lines already well-serving Binghamton.
I don't agree that rail along Rte. 17 in the Catskills is viable (which I mistook to be the route of the Phoebe Snow, but isn't). Henry and others have pointed out that route is fraught with problems, like 8 full circles and stuff like that. Lackawanna Cutoff to Scranton and points north is logically necessary. Syracuse can get by on its own via Albany.
Paul Milenkovic I also take umbrage with "peristently economically stagnent." Yeah Don, I know you work long hours until the times you can post, and I too have posted sleepy, but a quick spell check would give the critics less to work with.
Phoebe VetWhile it is true that Binghamton, like much of the Northeast, is in decline,
Well, that was my point. I know that it, along with much of the rest of the state, was an economic powerhouse, but it's been a while...and it's not getting better any time soon, so not a place that's in dire need of infrastructure investment.
There is no contempt. I really like that part of NY. Have been on many vacations thru there and up into the Finger Lakes region. Binghamton University is on my daughter's "short list'.....
That Delaware River route through the Catskills was an Erie route. Phoebe was a Lackawanna train, she ran from Hoboken, through Scranton, Elmira, Hornell, to Buffalo.
After the merger with Erie the route was merged with the Erie Lake Cities to go from Hoboken to Chicago, still through Scranton & Binghamton.
That Erie route winds along the river bank for almost 100 miles. It is not suitable for passenger service, though the Erie ran passengers that way.
The Erie did do a creditable job along the Delaware but it was 20 something miles and an hour longer between the Hudson River and Binghamton. Thus the EL elected to use the DL's shorter and more populated route through Scranton.
But two points about Binghamton and decline. Yes, like the rest of the Southern Tier, is is not the bustling industrial area it once was. A lot of industry moved south and west like others in the Northeast. I often blame Conrail for downgrading the EL properties for part of the decline but can't say how true it is.
On the other hand, lack of main line freight service and lack of passenger rails service have been attributed to lackluster ecnomies elsewhere. A lot of money is being channeled to the Water Level Route with nothing to the Southern Tier. It can be a shorter route from the Hudson west and it can take away alot of the traffic congestion off both the Water Level and the NS PRR main. The same arguement made during Conrail years, yes, I know.
My major points about rail passenger service are that Binghamton cannot sustain a train service by itself; that it has always been tied to other points in the Southern Tier toward Buffalo and not to Syracuse; and that the Amtrak study should include the Southern Tier west of Binghamton in addition to if not instead of the Cortland-Syracuse area if only to prove me wrong and shut me up!
henry6 Syracuse already has good passenger rail The Southern Tier Route would also link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via connections west and north
Syracuse already has good passenger rail
The Southern Tier Route would also link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via connections west and north
Henry, Although I agree with you that if you're going to go to from New York to Binghamton it should be through Scranton, and if you go beyond Binghamton it should be to the west, I'm not sure how the Southern Tier would link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via better than the Syracuse route.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendance henry6 Syracuse already has good passenger rail The Southern Tier Route would also link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via connections west and north Henry, Although I agree with you that if you're going to go to from New York to Binghamton it should be through Scranton, and if you go beyond Binghamton it should be to the west, I'm not sure how the Southern Tier would link the area to Buffalo and Amtrak and Via better than the Syracuse route.
Simple. First, I am concerned with Bingahmton to NY service. In order for that service to be viable it needs more passenger support than what Binghamton can provide. Historically Bingahmton has been linked to the population of the Southern Tier includeing Owego, Waverly, Elmira, and Corning, NY and Sayre and Athens, PA., Basically it is an area 25 to 35 miles north and south of the rail lines which go to Buffalo (former Lackawanna, Erie, and EL lines) which includes quite a few colleges and universities plus other small towns such as Ithaca, Watkins' Glen, and Bath, NY, and Towanda, Mansfield, Wellsboro and Galeton, PA. all of which might connect with feeder buses. If the train goes to Corning, it can go to Hornell, if it goes to Hornell, why not to Buffalo. Most important, though, is that this populaiton base is much larger than the population between Binghamton and Syracuse via Cortland and therefore is more likely to support the Binghamton train. Also, though, Cortland is more tied to Syracuse so that population already goes to Syracuse; a train from Binghamton to Syracuse, with track imporvements will still take at least two hours (best DL&W timecard allowed with one stop at Cortland, double track and signaled); Syraucse already has good rail service to NY and route would not be a gain for them (2 hrs to Bing another 4 to 4 1/2 to NYC=6 to 6 1/2 vs current five while awaiting new HSR). I just feel that history shows that the Souther Tier is more tied together than a map shows, that its population and economy today is just as intradependent, that the Syracuse extension will not support the train, and that there should be a study of the area west of Binghamton to determine the real answer of whether or not there is support for the service. I am not saying not survey the Syracuse route but saying the route west of Binghamton has to also be surveyed to get all the clear answers and needs determinations. I fear that if the information gathered only from the population between Syracuse and Binghamton is taken into consideration it will show no support for the service and it will be dismissed where if the real support population is suveyed, then a need will be shown and the service can be explored further. Unspoken is the support west of Binghamton might even show need for service to and from Buffalo where westbound Amtrak and northbound Amtrak/Via connections could be made (again, though, 2 to 2 1/2 hrs. to Syracuse, then 2-3 hours to Buffalo as opposed 4- 4 1/2 hrs Binghamton to Buffalo, would show faster time through the Soutern Tier while serving a bigger population base).
If the trains, passenger and freight, can maintain enough speed, the old Lackawanna route from Buffalo to Hoboken, with the passenger trains continuing on to NYP, would be shorter and probably faster than the Mohawk Valley route through Albany but the population density would be considerably less.
That would be an interesting study.
The Delaware River route is another story. I used to live and work in Sullivan County along the river. They put so many trains on the ground that the local newspaper used to call them the "Weary Erie". I have a scrap book full of photos...
Right. All I am asking for is the full study.
I can say from personal experience that the Southern Tier's economy is hindered by its inaccessibility. When I was considering attending Cornell University, I received much more admonishment about Ithaca's inaccessibility than it's weather. In contrast, Cornell's rival in life-sciences excellence--Michigan at Ann Arbor--has convenient subway and rail connections from O'Hare. And, unlike Cornell, the campus is surrounded by corporate research facilities.
The region is also directly impacted by America's neglect of its railways, for example in the loss of employment when Amerail closed its Viewliner plant at Hornell.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
MaglevThe region is also directly impacted by America's neglect of its railways, for example in the loss of employment when Amerail closed its Viewliner plant at Hornell.
The shops there are still a going concern - the primary business is, and was, doing transit car rebuilding. The Viewliner order was small potatoes.
Hornell city officials announced Thursday that railcar component manufacturer TTA Systems has secured a contract to work on a Maryland subway system, leading to more jobs in the Maple City.... In October 2008 18 employees were laid off because two projects were winding down. At that time, around 75 employees were left at the plant and officials were looking for short- and long-term contracts that could bring plant production to its peak.
Andy Thompson, The Evening Tribune, Tue Nov 11, 2008, 11:00 AM EST
It is unknown how much, if any, of the work could end up at Alstom’s Hornell facilities. The Canadian government requires at least 60 percent of the cars be assembled in Canada. Bombardier operates a facility in the Quebec province of La Pocatiere. Bombardier also operates a plant in Kanona, and Hogan said it may be possible that some of the work will filter to that facility as well as Alstom’s plants in Hornell.
Although the Viewliners are not a favorite of mine, the technology of a modular sleeping car with private toilets should have been developed further. America will probably always require overnight trains, and it is too bad we are stuck with "prototypes" (the Viewliners) instead of multiple new fleets of train cars...
Hey, I'm looking for a job! I'll scrape the rust off those Turboliners and give 'em a push start! But wouldn't it be much better if we REALLY did something progressive, and started making more train cars than road cars?
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.