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Bring Back Famous Name Trains

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Bring Back Famous Name Trains
Posted by BostonTrainGuy on Friday, April 17, 2009 11:04 AM

Hey Amtrak, as you upgrade ("Empire Builder Refurbish") your long distance trains, how about bringing back the most famous train names.

For instance, the "Southwest Chief" becomes the "Super Chief", the "Lake Shore Limited" (aka "Late Show Limited") becomes the "Broadway Limited" or "The 21st Century Limited" (I know, I know, but most people probably think that it was named after Broadway in New York City and we do have to update the calender although many people probably think that we are in the 20th Century).  And how about upgrading the late evening Regional Train out of Boston and renaming it the "Merchant's Limited".

Well all just fun ideas, but Amtrak please at least bring back the "Super Chief".  I think that's a no-brainer. 

 

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Posted by carnej1 on Friday, April 17, 2009 11:41 AM

BostonTrainGuy

Hey Amtrak, as you upgrade ("Empire Builder Refurbish") your long distance trains, how about bringing back the most famous train names.

For instance, the "Southwest Chief" becomes the "Super Chief", the "Lake Shore Limited" (aka "Late Show Limited") becomes the "Broadway Limited" or "The 21st Century Limited" (I know, I know, but most people probably think that it was named after Broadway in New York City and we do have to update the calender although many people probably think that we are in the 20th Century).  And how about upgrading the late evening Regional Train out of Boston and renaming it the "Merchant's Limited".

Well all just fun ideas, but Amtrak please at least bring back the "Super Chief".  I think that's a no-brainer. 

 

 I think the "Super Chief" example makes sense as it is a great name but in many other cases the name change would only be significant to railfans and would not resonate with the public (much of the population being too young to recall the classic names)..

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Posted by TomDiehl on Friday, April 17, 2009 3:25 PM

BostonTrainGuy

Hey Amtrak, as you upgrade ("Empire Builder Refurbish") your long distance trains, how about bringing back the most famous train names.

For instance, the "Southwest Chief" becomes the "Super Chief", the "Lake Shore Limited" (aka "Late Show Limited") becomes the "Broadway Limited" or "The 21st Century Limited" (I know, I know, but most people probably think that it was named after Broadway in New York City and we do have to update the calender although many people probably think that we are in the 20th Century).  And how about upgrading the late evening Regional Train out of Boston and renaming it the "Merchant's Limited".

Well all just fun ideas, but Amtrak please at least bring back the "Super Chief".  I think that's a no-brainer. 

No brainer or not, when Amtrak was first formed, the Santa Fe Railroad wouldn't allow the use of the name Super Chief because it was too closely associated with (and copyrighted by) the Santa Fe. I don't believe their position has changed on this, even through the merger with BN.

The Lakeshore Limited follows the route of the 20th Century Limited. Both were names of New York Central trains. The Broadway Limited (you are correct, NOT named for the theatre district in NYC) was a Pennsylvania Railroad train, that ran on the route of the current Pennsylvanian, and Capitol Limited (PRR and B&O origin names).

Other famous names still on the Amtrak Timetable:

Adirondak

Ethan Allen Express

Silver Meteor/Silver Star/Palmetto

Crescent

Cardinal

Capitol Limited

Pere Marquette

City of New Orleans (famous in song)

Hiawatha

California Zephyr

Texas Eagle

Sunset Limited

Coast Starlight

As you can see, quite a percentage of Amtrak's noncommuter trains carry a famous name

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, April 17, 2009 6:48 PM

TomDiehl

No brainer or not, when Amtrak was first formed, the Santa Fe Railroad wouldn't allow the use of the name Super Chief because it was too closely associated with (and copyrighted by) the Santa Fe. I don't believe their position has changed on this, even through the merger with BN.

Tom:  Not quite true. When AMTRAK first started they used the various RRs reservation systems. So a trip on AMTRAK's Super Chief, Texas Chief at first you were directed to Santa Fe's reservation system or a local station agent. Santa Fe got so many complaints about the poor AMTRAK service standards that they decided to rescind the use of the Super Chief name. The  AMTRAK service was not up their previous service standards of the Super Chief. I believe that Texas Chief and Chief were allowed to continue  in use. Then AMTRAK changed the Super Chief to the Southwest Chief.
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Posted by BostonTrainGuy on Friday, April 17, 2009 7:28 PM

You are correct about the poor Amtrak service that Sante Fe didn't believe was deserving of the "Super" nomenclature.  Amtrak had to rename the train the "Southwest Limited" and then the "Southwest Chief" when the train was upgraded to Superliner equipment.  So the next logical step is to rename it the "Super Chief" when the next upgrade of equipment happens, right?

But also if memory serves me well, I believe the fact that Sante Fe wanted to use the name "Super Chief" for a premium fast freight service (maybe TOFC between Chicago and Los Angeles) was also a major factor.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, April 17, 2009 8:23 PM

BostonTrainGuy
But also if memory serves me well, I believe the fact that Sante Fe wanted to use the name "Super Chief" for a premium fast freight service (maybe TOFC between Chicago and Los Angeles) was also a major factor.

Bostontrainguy, your memory almost got it right. Santa Fe called its premium freight serice "Super C." They may not have wanted to confuse people and have them show up looking for drawing rooms and such when there would have been no inside accomodations for passengers.

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 17, 2009 9:30 PM

It is time Amtrak took the passenger train to a new direction.  Yes, historical names work well and should be kept.  But it is also time to make the passenger train a concept of today and tomorrow with new names and marketing ideas.

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Posted by BostonTrainGuy on Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:20 AM

Oh I don't know, this would be problematic.  New names would have to all be politically correct and some of the old ones would need to be changed.  For instance:

Adirondack - An old Indian name . . . got to change that!

Ethan Allen Express - Secretly negotiated with the British while Vermont was being attacked from Canada - a traitor maybe?

Crescent - It's the Muslim symbol - would only be controversial - change it!

Cardinal - Must refer to a religious figure, right? - no can do.

Pere Marquette - a Jesuit Priest! - how can you name a train after a Jesuit Priest?  Here's that religion thing again.

City of New Orleans -  Brings back horrible memories of Hurricane Katrina - need something more uplifting.

Hiawatha - Another Indian name!  I told you before this isn't cool!

California Zephyr - Yikes he's the Greek God of the west wind - atheist unite!

Texas Eagle - Change to "Texas Endangered Species" please.

Sunset Limited - Too depressing - might affect people with emotional problems.

Coast Starlight - Change to "Left Coast Starlight" - actually don't worry, California isn't going to be there very long anyway.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 18, 2009 9:01 AM

Great; another political tangent.

I vote to bring back my girl, Phoebe...

 

Dave

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Posted by TomDiehl on Saturday, April 18, 2009 9:40 AM

Lots of things have names from old Indian (oops I mean Native American) languages

Crescent is named for the Crescent City (New Orleans) the southern destination

A Cardinal is a bird

Pere Marquette is also the name of a town, just like the Commonwealth of Virginia is named for the Virgin Queen (of England)

The City of New Orleans was named LONG before Katrina

Our Constitution calls for religious freedom, not freedom from religion, which would be your personal choice. Atheists can choose not to ride a train named for anyone's God.

Endangered Species is too general a term. Using the actual species name brings more attention to it from the general public

"Sunset" is also seen as a relaxing or romantic symbol.

"Left Coast" is a short term slang word. In twenty years, noone will remember what it means.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:24 AM

Santa Fe had copyrighted the "Chief" name prior to Amtrak.  After May 1, 1971, ATSF allowed Amtrak to use the "Super Chief" and "Texas Chief" names for the Chicago-Los Angeles and Chicago-Houston trains, both of which operated over ATSF.  In the summer of 1973, there was also a second Chicago-Los Angeles train named the "Chief".  Around 1976 or so, ATSF felt that Amtrak's service on those trains reflected poorly on Santa Fe's image and rescinded permission to use the "Chief" name.  The "Super Chief" became the "Southwest Limited" and the "Texas Chief" became the "Lone Star".

Some time after the "Southwest Limited" was re-equipped with Superliners, ATSF felt that the service was up to their standards and again granted permission to use the "Chief" name.  The train was renamed the "Southwest Chief" at that time.

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:13 PM

Phoebe Vet

Great; another political tangent.

I vote to bring back my girl, Phoebe...

 

 

 She still lives!  Everytime I drive Binghamton to New Jersey and back I think of her!  And remember the too few rides I had in the Tavern Lounge. 

(And of course, the two TL's are still alive in the blue and gray colors of MNRR...if ever I get service back to Bingo I want at least one of them on the inaugural train!!!!!

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:26 PM

 

This tavern lounge car?

Note Phoebe's portrait over the bar.

Dave

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:43 PM

Oh yeah...but I was always looking the other way, watching the tracks disappear...J.J. loved the train and got a way with a lot when photographing, too.  Note that he is blocking the view out the back while taking the shot.  If you or I tried to take the picture the other passenger would have shove us out the rear door and most, or the someone would put her into emergency so that we'd go flying! 

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 18, 2009 5:44 PM

I am not JJ Young.  Having done some professional photography, I respect copyright.  I would never claim his work as my own, profit from it's use, or remove his copyright notice from the image.

Dave

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, April 18, 2009 7:13 PM

JJ was a good and respected friend of mine...

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:46 PM

He took some great pictures.  I would like to have known him.

Dave

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, April 21, 2009 7:54 AM

I guess you could stick a Rolls Royce  statue or Mercedes ring on the front of a Yugo but it will still be a Yugo no matter what you call it.

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Posted by Los Angeles Rams Guy on Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:02 AM

When they get the new Chicago - Dubuque service started up again they'll hopefully extend that thing to Waterloo and name the train the "Land O' Corn".

Also, if they could EVER get service on UP's "Overland Route" across Iowa I'd love to see a resuscitation of the "Cities" trains.  

 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:45 AM

Los Angeles Rams Guy

When they get the new Chicago - Dubuque service started up again they'll hopefully extend that thing to Waterloo and name the train the "Land O' Corn".

Also, if they could EVER get service on UP's "Overland Route" across Iowa I'd love to see a resuscitation of the "Cities" trains.

The previous name on the Chicago-Dubuque service was the "Black Hawk", which is appropriate to the area served.  Over the years, Amtrak has come up with some pretty good names for its trains.

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Posted by TomDiehl on Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:42 AM

Phoebe Vet

Great; another political tangent.

I vote to bring back my girl, Phoebe...

 

I just read in the Pocono Record this morning that Amtrak is doing a feasibility study on restoring passenger service between Hoboken, NJ and Binghamton, NY. This could light a fire under the efforts to reopen the New Jersey Cutoff for commuter service from the Poconos to Hoboken.

Now, if we could just get the Binghamton to Buffalo leg added................. Thumbs Up

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:47 AM

Dave

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:20 PM

I am hoping the Amtrak survey looks at working west from Binghamton to Owego, Waverly-Sayre-Athens, Elmira, Corning and Hornell as markets to support the service to NY.  If you get a train to Hornell, then you've gotta to to Buffalo. Historically it has been the market area for more than just rail services and that a route to or through Syracuse would be fatal.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, April 24, 2009 7:58 AM

ndbprr

I guess you could stick a Rolls Royce  statue or Mercedes ring on the front of a Yugo but it will still be a Yugo no matter what you call it.

Yes, that is why SFe toldAmtrak to stop using the name "Chief."

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, April 24, 2009 8:03 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
The previous name on the Chicago-Dubuque service was the "Black Hawk", which is appropriate to the area served.

A far older Black Hawk was Burlington's overight train between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

Johnny

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Friday, April 24, 2009 8:11 AM

You want more congressional support?  Name the trains after politicians.

Dave

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Posted by Maglev on Friday, April 24, 2009 1:28 PM

First, a comment in favor of the Phoebe Snow ... I went to college in Upstate New York, and would have loved a safe, convenient way to travel in the wintertime.  Greyhound just doesn't cut it (no lounge...).

My suggestion for a much-needed revival is Metroliner !!!  I feel ashamed to even type that other name being used for NEC express trains.  It sounds like a body part upon which I am sitting... the place where you put a furnace... it might actually be able to accelerate, but so what? 70 mph schedule times is sad... it is not excellent; first-class accommodations are mediocre...

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Posted by THE.RR on Friday, April 24, 2009 5:53 PM

TomDiehl

Other famous names still on the Amtrak Timetable:

Coast Starlight

As you can see, quite a percentage of Amtrak's noncommuter trains carry a famous name

I'm supprised that no one caught it yet, but the Coast Starlight is an Amtrak name.  They made 1 train out of 2 SP Daylights (Coast & Shasta IIRC). That is why it carries the numbers 11 & 14 and not 11 & 12 for Amtrak.  For the SP it was #11/12 and the 13/14.  (Odd going to San Francisco. even going away)

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:39 AM

Los Angeles Rams Guy

When they get the new Chicago - Dubuque service started up again they'll hopefully extend that thing to Waterloo and name the train the "Land O' Corn".

Also, if they could EVER get service on UP's "Overland Route" across Iowa I'd love to see a resuscitation of the "Cities" trains.  

 

Known at the railroad as the "Can O' Corn".  Interesting train, little market for it after paved roads and air service.

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Posted by BHirschi on Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:22 AM

BostonTrainGuy

California Zephyr - Yikes he's the Greek God of the west wind - atheist unite!

Actually, you'd probably catch more flak from fundamentalist Christians ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me," dontcha know). Angel

All kidding aside, most Amtrak trains do carry the names of famous streamliners, albeit some in modified form. An idea I had a few years ago was to bring back the famous railroad colors. Paint one locomotive a specific color for a specific train, including the original railroad name and herald, with a small Amtrak logo and the train name on each side of the nose, and assign that single locomotive to run on the point of the train whose name it carries. Some examples:

Auto Train -- Auto Train purple, scarlet and white.

California Zephyr -- Chicago, Burlington & Quincy silver and red

City of New Orleans -- Illinois Central orange and brown

Coast Starlight -- Southern Pacific "Daylight" scheme (yes, I know this is an Amtrak name, not an SP name, but since it runs the route of the Daylights, the colors are appropriate).

Crescent -- Southern green, white and gold

Empire Builder -- Great Northern green and orange

Hiawatha -- Milwaukee Road orange and maroon

Keystone -- Pennsylvania tuscan red and gold

Lake Shore Limited -- New York Central grey "Lightning Bolt" scheme

Silver Meteor/Silver Star -- Seaboard Air Line "Citrus" scheme

Southwest Chief -- Santa Fe "Warbonnet" scheme

Sunset Limited -- Southern Pacific "Black Widow" scheme

Texas Eagle -- Missouri Pacific blue and white

There is a precedent for this -- for some time in the 1970s, Amtrak operated GG1 No. 4935, also known as the "Blackjack," in full Pennsylvania RR paint, on its trains in the Northeast Corridor.

I doubt this idea will ever come to pass. Licensing fees and the cost of painting and maintaining the locomotives would probably be way too high, and Amtrak has better things to spend its money on. But it would be cool -- and certainly attention-getting!

 

SCL black, ACL purple, SAL green or cream, FEC yellow and red, Southern green... and that's what I like about the south!

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