Length of Passenger Trains

[oltmannd]

I don't know about steam heating generating capacity, trainline heat loss, or car heating demand.

I do know that Amtrak figured roughly 75kW per car (Amfleet); and F40s, maybe P42's too, provided up to 750kW hotel power.  That comes from just one of the locomotives to eliminate the problem of synchronizing engine speed, effectively leaving only 2,000hp for traction.  The P30s had two 375hp diesel-alternator sets that proved troublesome to synchronize for train power.  Two locomotives with engines operating independently by throttle setting alone pose an even greater challenge.

Another possible limit is the current capacity of the trainline bus and cable connections.

I don't recall for sure, but maybe Superliners take 100kW per car and P42s provide 1,000kW.  It works the same.  Anyone know if later F40s were equipped with 1,000kW alternators for use with the Superliners if there was a higher power demand?

In any event, the only way to run a train longer than ten cars is to connect up to ten cars to the locomotive and connect additional cars to a generator car or trailing locomotive in as many blocks as necessary.  After the second set, passing through the entire train consist is a problem - walking through an engine room, mis-matched end door heights, and walking through a locomotive nose door.

Once saw a 18 or 19 car solid Amfleet train (Fall Foliage special in 1976 or 77) hauled by a pair of P30s.  Apparenly, there is enough capacity in the HEP trainline for trains of that length.  P30s did have the ability to bring their individual HEP plans on and off line as needed - probaby why that train had P30s and not SDP40Fs or F40s on it.

[al-in-chgo]

 

        !

[RoyPBower]

Here in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, I have boarded the Meteor in the middle of the night, walking across gravel, to get to the train on the outside track, away from the station.

When living in Miami, I would board at Hollywood where the Silver trains would often make two stops at the platform in the 60's and 70's

[Wdlgln005]

I can't remember which stations, but the California Zephyr has a couple of small town stops where they pause twice for unloading. It seems to be when there are both sleeper and coach passengers to be let off. Since, on my last trip, we had only 7 cars (3 sleepers, diner, lounge & two coaches) the platforms must be pretty short to require this.

THere could be a couple places on the D&RGW like that. Even for PZ days, the station at Rifle was little more than a flag stop, with the train stretching out of both ends. Not sure if today's Amtrak CZ has the same problem?? IIRC the train may have stopped for crew changes or other reasons??

Does it still stop at Rifle?

 

Between Denver & Salt Lake, I'm not sure how large the "stations"
at Winter Park & Granby, CO then Green River & Helper UT are.
Thompson UT, Bond & Rifle CO have dropped from the schedule.
D&RGW fans may be familiar with those names.

Comparing the 2007/UP & 1982/RGZ TT: today's
WB CZ leaves Denver 1/2 hour later, @ 8:05 vs 7:30, arrives Salt Lake City 11:33 vs 9:30
(2 hours longer)
EB CZ leaves Salt Lake City @3:45 vs 7:30am, arrives Denver 6:58 vs 9:30 pm
(IMHO shows what a first class operation the RGZ & D&RGW was)

[al-in-chgo]

I can't remember which stations, but the California Zephyr has a couple of small town stops where they pause twice for unloading. It seems to be when there are both sleeper and coach passengers to be let off. Since, on my last trip, we had only 7 cars (3 sleepers, diner, lounge & two coaches) the platforms must be pretty short to require this.

THere could be a couple places on the D&RGW like that. Even for PZ days, the station at Rifle was little more than a flag stop, with the train stretching out of both ends. Not sure if today's Amtrak CZ has the same problem?? IIRC the train may have stopped for crew changes or other reasons??

Does it still stop at Rifle?

 

[Wdlgln005]

I can't remember which stations, but the California Zephyr has a couple of small town stops where they pause twice for unloading. It seems to be when there are both sleeper and coach passengers to be let off. Since, on my last trip, we had only 7 cars (3 sleepers, diner, lounge & two coaches) the platforms must be pretty short to require this.

THere could be a couple places on the D&RGW like that. Even for PZ days, the station at Rifle was little more than a flag stop, with the train stretching out of both ends. Not sure if today's Amtrak CZ has the same problem?? IIRC the train may have stopped for crew changes or other reasons??

[al-in-chgo]

SoCal Metrolink requires that stations be 600 feet long, and I have seen 6 car trains (plus engine) that didn't take up the whole platform at Buena Park.  The Amtrak station at Fullerton seems to be about twice as long as BP Metrolink.  Don't know how many cars that is.  When the SW Chief stops at Fullerton the engines usually stop just past the end of the platform and about 1.75 engines, the baggage car, and the crew dorm overlap the platform.  The coaches at the rear usually extend right to the platform end.

I saw an unusual double stop at Fullerton recently.  There was a gas leak in Irvine that delayed by several hours a Surfliner with some passengers from San Diego with reserved seats on the Chief.  The jam let up so that the Surfliner would be about 1/2 hour late for the connection.  After the Chief did its normal boarding of passengers on Track 1, it pulled forward so that the gate across the triple tracks was clear.  3 Amtrak station workers took an electric cart across for luggage.  The Surfliner pulled in on Track 3, discharged passengers, and left quickly.  Normal passengers did their thing with the bridge back to Track 1.  The passengers for the Chief walked across the tracks behind the luggage cart escorted by the Amtrak workers and boarded the last car of the Chief, which then took off.  Both the Chief and the Surfliner were on the left hand track of the 3 at Fullerton, one going west, the other east.

An elegant solution to the problem, I thought.

Jack

Elegant and inspired!  My opinion of Amtrak just went up a few basis points.

 

[Jack_S]

SoCal Metrolink requires that stations be 600 feet long, and I have seen 6 car trains (plus engine) that didn't take up the whole platform at Buena Park.  The Amtrak station at Fullerton seems to be about twice as long as BP Metrolink.  Don't know how many cars that is.  When the SW Chief stops at Fullerton the engines usually stop just past the end of the platform and about 1.75 engines, the baggage car, and the crew dorm overlap the platform.  The coaches at the rear usually extend right to the platform end.

I saw an unusual double stop at Fullerton recently.  There was a gas leak in Irvine that delayed by several hours a Surfliner with some passengers from San Diego with reserved seats on the Chief.  The jam let up so that the Surfliner would be about 1/2 hour late for the connection.  After the Chief did its normal boarding of passengers on Track 1, it pulled forward so that the gate across the triple tracks was clear.  3 Amtrak station workers took an electric cart across for luggage.  The Surfliner pulled in on Track 3, discharged passengers, and left quickly.  Normal passengers did their thing with the bridge back to Track 1.  The passengers for the Chief walked across the tracks behind the luggage cart escorted by the Amtrak workers and boarded the last car of the Chief, which then took off.  Both the Chief and the Surfliner were on the left hand track of the 3 at Fullerton, one going west, the other east.

An elegant solution to the problem, I thought.

Jack

[HarveyK400]

Alphas got me thinking.  I've stood in the aisle on an 18-car holiday Flambeau and ridden on a long Capital and Blackhawks, continuing on the Western Star the second time.  My longest was the Texas Eagle in 1999 that had at least 25 express cars on the tail end southbound from Little Rock.  The train was three hours late into Dallas due to switching at Saint Louis and Little Rock.

[HarveyK400]

I don't know about steam heating generating capacity, trainline heat loss, or car heating demand.

I do know that Amtrak figured roughly 75kW per car (Amfleet); and F40s, maybe P42's too, provided up to 750kW hotel power.  That comes from just one of the locomotives to eliminate the problem of synchronizing engine speed, effectively leaving only 2,000hp for traction.  The P30s had two 375hp diesel-alternator sets that proved troublesome to synchronize for train power.  Two locomotives with engines operating independently by throttle setting alone pose an even greater challenge.

Another possible limit is the current capacity of the trainline bus and cable connections.

I don't recall for sure, but maybe Superliners take 100kW per car and P42s provide 1,000kW.  It works the same.  Anyone know if later F40s were equipped with 1,000kW alternators for use with the Superliners if there was a higher power demand?

In any event, the only way to run a train longer than ten cars is to connect up to ten cars to the locomotive and connect additional cars to a generator car or trailing locomotive in as many blocks as necessary.  After the second set, passing through the entire train consist is a problem - walking through an engine room, mis-matched end door heights, and walking through a locomotive nose door.

[gardendance]

I have been on a few Amtrak trains that have made double stops at small stations, and I saw one at Wilmington, DE, which has relatively short platforms.

The Wilmington situation was a southbound Florida train. Wilmington has a low level northbound platform with 1 track, the next track has a high level platform, which it shares with the 3rd track, which also has its own low level platform. The high level platform is much shorter than either of the 2 outside low platforms. The Florida train used doors only on the low platform side, I assume they didn't use the other side because that platform's so short they would have needed more than 2 stops.

Curiously to me southbound SEPTA trains didn't use that raised island platform even though they're certainly short enough. Most northbound SEPTA trains, espcecially the ones that change ends in Wilmington, and consequently dwell for a while, use the northbound 1st track which has the low platform, but I do remember seeing at least one trip that used the 'AMTRAK' northbound track with the high platform.

I haven't been to Wilmington for a bunch of years, current practice may have changed.

[wjstix]

Although locomotive pulling power is a factor, another factor would be steam generation/head end power being supplied to the train. I believe Amtrak used a rule of thumb that it's F40PH's could provide enough steam or later HEP for five cars, so for every five cars they had to have one engine...so a 15 car train would need 3 engines. I suspect more than 3 engines on an Amtrak train would be rare.

[alphas]

Longest train I ever rode was a Christmas-time combination (at Pittsburgh) of (I believe) the Pennsylvania Limited and St. Lousian from Harrisburg to NYC about 1965.  5 E units pulled 36 cars of which about 12 were mail into the station and 3 GG1's took it east.  They were so hurting for cars they had some of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Line coaches (all old) in it.  Moving forward, I counted 32 cars in the Chicago-NYC train at Harrisburg when Amtrak was trying to move the mails a few years ago--but only 6 of them were passenger.  The train was stopped for over an hour at the station before heading east. 

[al-in-chgo]

I can tell you the longest passenger train I've ever been on, and probably always will. 

It was spring of (IIRC) 1993 and since MARC didn't run on weekends, I had to use Amtrak to go to and from D.C./Union and Balto/Penna. 

On a whim I had booked "first class" accommodations D.C. on to Baltimore, thinking that if Amtrak sold 'em, they must have them (yes, I was stone ignorant).  The train looked only average-long at first, several cars with passengers, good load, single seats only.  I still thought maybe there was something like a parlor car up the train.

I walked through several cars (none locked) and noticed that they were no longer the Amfleet type but more the type the railroads ordered in profusion about post-World War II.  About the fourth coach I decided to stop.  But I had gotten a pretty good luck at the train because I stuck my heard out for a look (and probably feeling guilty and half hoping a trainman would see me and get me down with everyone else).  So from the vantage of seven or eight coaches up, the head-end of the train was not to be seen (again IIRC there was a very gentle curve to the platform but I couldn't see past about 15 cars all told). 

Later I asked an Amtrak employee what the deal was, and he told me with some sheepishisness that Penn Station/NYC was FINALLY getting rid of the last of the manually-thrown switches and the coaches had to be shuttled down to D.C. for a while because they would be in the way of the work. 

Don't know whether to make a crack about Amtrak.  No, no reason really.

 

[corwinda]

I know Elko, NV has about 4 cars worth of platform. Double stop anytime there are sleeping car passengers. (They normally only have one door open for coach passengers.)

[Kevin C. Smith]

I can't remember which stations, but the California Zephyr has a couple of small town stops where they pause twice for unloading. It seems to be when there are both sleeper and coach passengers to be let off. Since, on my last trip, we had only 7 cars (3 sleepers, diner, lounge & two coaches) the platforms must be pretty short to require this.

[HarveyK400]

Long-distance trains may have greater lattitude in length where it can be doubled or tripled at terminals.  Just a few adjacent cars in one area of the train handling shorts.  This restricts the train from sharing a station with commuter service in the peak hours.

Metra trains are limited to the length of the platform tracks to keep from fouling the leads to adjacent tracks and reducing terminal capacity.  Since terminal tracks are of varying length, use and alternatives must be planned.  Many stations up line, away from Chicago, are shorter than the longer trains that may stop. 

Getting more finite, train length also depends on the electrical load of a block of cars connected to a hotel alternator and the capacity and voltage drop of the trainline; and of the number of blocks of cars in the consist. 

[al-in-chgo]

In response to a question from a teacher, we all went 'round and 'round on this last year.

It is hard to find definite answers (should Auto-Train be classed a passenger train or a mixed train??), but in general, drawing on Amtrak and pre-Amtrak experience, and allowing as how I have to be a little inexact, and not counting locomotives or baggage,

.  a train might be limited to as few as 12 cars to fit a station platform in a smaller town, or a longer train would have to make multiple stops, our would have to "herd" passengers a couple of cars at either end....[fill in your own scenario!]  (Obviously I am not counting "platforms" such as Abbott's Platform near Waukegan or Sweet Briar platform, which the Southern Rwy. made a flag stop pre-Amtrak.)   

.  a train of 16 or so cars would probably call for two stops at all but the biggest (longest-platformed) stations. 

.  when it gets up around 20 or more cars total, it's time to think of different sections of the same train.   At least, this seems to have been the response of the ATSF during Super Chief/El Cap days.  Yet some trains like the WESTERN STAR mentioned abovehandled 22 to 24-length, as mentioned above, so perhaps platform length varies(varied) from one RR company to another. 

BTW does anyone have real-life experience about Amtrak?  Are they often forced to make multiple stops of the same passenger train?  Do they ever have to send out separate sections in times of peak demand?   How long are trains like the Empire Builder or Southwest Chief in summer?   I have seen about 15 cars on the Silver trains in Florida, and that was off-season.  Are the Silver trains quite long in the winter??

Is there any truth to the rumor that Amtrak occasionally makes passengers exit directly onto the gravel (i.e., beyond the reach of the platform), or is that just rumor or "urban legend"?  If so, and if not crazy illegal, then it should be.  That poses a danger to even the hardiest and tallest of passengers. 

  --   a. s.

 

 

 

[ndbprr]

The original Autotrain probably wins the category but it has an asterik with that.  When first started they ran the autocars at the head end followed by the passenger cars.  Overall it was probably close to 40 cars.  After two wrecks it was determined that there were different types of brakes on the autocariers which contrubuted the wrecks.  When I rode it in 1976 they ran two trains from Lorton with the cars leaving an hour or so before the passenger train. The louisville version was still being clenaed up from a massive wreck.  That was in May, 1976.  When you got to Sanford most of the autos were already unloaded.

[daveklepper]

Toward the end of UP passenger service, it combined all the Cities trains into one over the Milwaukee into Chicago, and this often ran to 28 or 30 cars.   Also, after the 20th Century was ended, between Albany and Buffalo, the NYC ran one train with coaches and sleepers from both New York and Boston to Cincinnat, St. Louis, Chicago via Cleveland, Chicago via Detroit, and Toronto, and this ran to over 24 cars.  Other NY - Buffalo trains were the short coach-only "Empire Service" consists. 

[agentatascadero]

You sure about those "quad" platform stops.

Think of jumbo jet airliners.  They have gobs of doors, and the 1960's vintage "Transportation of Tomorrow" writings (in which HSR was the up and coming thing) had multiple jetways to accomplish fast boarding through multiple doors.  In practice, one jetway, one jumbo jet, and it just takes that much longer to get going.  That is why I don't look forward to the A380.

Also with Amtrak.  Amfleets, or at least Amfleet I's, have vestibules at both ends.  You would think they would open all those doors for fast boarding.  Nope, boarding still requires a step box of all things and a conductor or trainman supervising the boarding -- no commuter-train swarm the doors and get in and out there.

My guess is that even with a 30-car passenger train, they are only boarding intermediate stops through limited numbers of doors.  And if plane and train operations are that paranoid about who gets on the train, the idea that they would open a bunch of doors, call "All aboard!", pull up step boxes, pull the train forward 8 car lengths, open other doors, put down step boxes, and repeat that process two more times, it just doesn't compute that such a thing would happen.

I am thinking they stop once, open a limited number of doors, and make you walk inside the train.

     Paul, Have to admit you "got me" there with the quad stops(I have never actually experienced one)....But, do you never ride trains?  I have experienced countless double stops, and quite a few triple stops as well.  Basically it comes down to this:  there is potential for head end, coach and sleeping car traffic, and, for example, you have a 15 car train and a 5 car platform...one might get lucky and only need a double stop, but the potential for a triple is there.  You may not "compute" that these events occur, but they do, and on a daily basis across the nation.  You are correct about only opening a few doors at remote stops, but WHICH doors?  AA

[oltmannd]

Any length limit for passenger trains is most likely because of air brake issues.  Too long and leaky and the graduated release won't work.  I had heard, years ago, that Amtrak has an 18 car limit.

You can get around this problem by using EP braking, where a wire replaces air for the application and release signal.  RRs that ran looong passenger trains way back when probably had EP braking on their passenger fleet.  They probably also had anti-lock braking, too, so they could run at higher speeds and get stopped in existing signal blocks.

On the NEC, the location the Amfleet I cars were primarily purchased for, they generally open all the doors at every stop.  Easy to do with long, high level platforms.

[Anonymous]

Longest Passenger Trains.

I would think that UP's City of Everywhere (mid 1960's to just before Amtrak) across Wyoming. Someone once told me that UP would sometimes run upwards of 30-35 cars in the train. 

     Long enough that they had to deploy 2 midtrain steam generator cars.

Don't quote me on this, as what I've stated is not something I've seen. I also remember seeing something in Trains many many years ago bout UP City of Everywhere.

 

Rgds IGN

 

[Paul Milenkovic]

You sure about those "quad" platform stops.

Think of jumbo jet airliners.  They have gobs of doors, and the 1960's vintage "Transportation of Tomorrow" writings (in which HSR was the up and coming thing) had multiple jetways to accomplish fast boarding through multiple doors.  In practice, one jetway, one jumbo jet, and it just takes that much longer to get going.  That is why I don't look forward to the A380.

Also with Amtrak.  Amfleets, or at least Amfleet I's, have vestibules at both ends.  You would think they would open all those doors for fast boarding.  Nope, boarding still requires a step box of all things and a conductor or trainman supervising the boarding -- no commuter-train swarm the doors and get in and out there.

My guess is that even with a 30-car passenger train, they are only boarding intermediate stops through limited numbers of doors.  And if plane and train operations are that paranoid about who gets on the train, the idea that they would open a bunch of doors, call "All aboard!", pull up step boxes, pull the train forward 8 car lengths, open other doors, put down step boxes, and repeat that process two more times, it just doesn't compute that such a thing would happen.

I am thinking they stop once, open a limited number of doors, and make you walk inside the train.

[THayman]

I was going to make a comment on "the Canadian", but I couldn't find the exact numbers on car lengths....but I was sure peak seasons had VIA running at at least 30 cars....Heck, VIA's "the Ocean" around Christmas time this year was running about 24 cars I believe, over some sections

[agentatascadero]

     1500 feet would equal 17-18 cars.  Platform lengths???  Have you never heard of double stops, even triple stops......due to short platforms?  Here in my home territory, SP Coast Line, The Daylights and Larks of the day ran to 22 cars routinely...and, on a Thanksgiving weekend, I rode a Starlight that ran 28 cars( and what seemed like a thousand Shriners going wild!).  VIA runs the Canadian up to 30 cars regularly...and probably has to make QUAD stops.  AA

[timz]

Dunno if there's a 1500-ft limit now-- except for the AutoTrain, nobody in the US runs trains longer than that now. But lots of railroads ran them longer than that before 1971, and Amtrak used to have a few too. Postwar passenger-carrying cars were mostly 85 ft long, so if you're including the engine even an 18-car train would exceed 1500 ft.

[BaltACD]

In the late 50's the combined Capitol Limited/Columbian would run at 18 to 22 cars, especially when the High School excursions to Washington DC were in season.  Power was normally 3 E's on these occasions.

[passengerfan]

I remember the combined summer GN Western Star /Fast Mail often ran 22 - 24 cars anything over they seemed to run as separate trains. This was especially true at Christmas time when the separate Fast Fail could run to 22 cars alone. The Western Star at Christmas was often sixteen cars. What was especially interesting was the way the two trains were combined. Working mail cars followed the power with the Western Star next complete with streamlined Observation then the Storage Mail cars trailed that. On the rear was a special storage mail cars with the rear half equipped like a caboose.  

Al - in - Stockton