L. A. to Vegas. Why not?

[spectratone]

I was wondering why there is no train from los angeles to las vegas anymore? Is it becuase of all the freight? Seems to me there would be a money maker with the high price of gas these days.  Does anybody know the real reason?

glenn 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

There would probably be a good market for a weekend-only LA-Lost Wages operation since the hotel/casinos fill up primarily from Friday through Sunday. 

[ndbprr]

If it was viable it would still be running.  My guess is it was a loser just like most people returning from Vegas.

[vsmith]

Too slow, and airfares are still cheaper.

Even given the often horrendous traffic on the highway, its still faster than taking the train because theres so much freight traffic coming thru Cajon canyon it often really delayed the Desert Wind when it was running.

Airfares are still kept artificially low to keep the traffic flowing on the airlines like Southwest. Thats a tremendous market and they are not going to give it up to anyone.

The only way rail service between LA and Lost Wages would really work would be a dedicated ROW for a non-stop HST type system, if such a system could be built that could wisk travelers in about 2 hours (takes about that long parking lot to parking lot by air), for about the same price as Southwest (for the mass market), it would work, but at that price it would have to be heavily subsidized. Or offer a mix, mass market no frills service at Southwest prices, and Premium service where you get an Orient Express like service for your 2 hr commute. That premium price would help offset costs. But it would still need subsidation. Theres no self paying commuter rail system anywhere in the world.

Subsidies aside, the biggest problem with this idea is the actual building of the tracks. Where do you put it? How do you get the land? Ever had to get an EIR for a project? It would be tremendously expensive to build today, which would be hotly contested by every NIMBY, BANANA, CART, PETA, ELF and yahoo from downtown LA to the Strip.

 

[Chafford1]

There is a project to do exactly this:

 

http://www.desertxpress.com/need.php

 

[Ham Radio]

Union Pacific doesn't want it operating on their freight corridor, and any high speed rail proposal is just pie-in-the-sky because there is no funding for it, public or private .

Let's not forget the environmentalist whackos that will oppose and sue to stop any additional rail lines that might offend a scrub weed, an insect or a tortoise.

[passengerfan]

It was not that long ago that Amtrak had one of the Talgo trains built specifically for Los Angeles - Las Vegas service and the UP nixed that by throwing so many stumbling blocks in the way of Amtrak they finally gave up and utilized the Las Vegas set of equipment in the Northwest corridor with the rest of the Talgos.

UP was not about to let another Desert Wind operate over their tracks.

With the four largest Casinos in Southern California receiving approval from the voters last to more than triple their size you can bet the Casino owners in Las Vegas are going to take a serious look at high speed rail to Vegas fron Southern California.

From Stockton I can fly for $80.00 each way in 1 hour forty miinutes to Vegas and receive free dinner and half price room Monday to Thursday. Amtrak can''t come close to matching that. Amtrak routes passengers via the San Joaquin down the Valley to Bakersfield and then transfers them to a Bus for the trip to Vegas that takes all day.    

[n012944]

There is a project to do exactly this:

 

http://www.desertxpress.com/need.php

 

So let me get this straight, I am going to drive from LA to Victorville, get out of my car, and get on a train?  I don't know about most people but if I have driven that far, I am just going to keep going in my car.  Sounds to me like it is doomed to fail.

[vsmith]

There is a project to do exactly this:

 

http://www.desertxpress.com/need.php

 

So let me get this straight, I am going to drive from LA to Victorville, get out of my car, and get on a train?  I don't know about most people but if I have driven that far, I am just going to keep going in my car.  Sounds to me like it is doomed to fail.

To have any hope of working the southern terminus has to be in San Bernardino at the very least., and add:

I-15 has some very severe grades for a car, let alone rail, maybe thats a cog train their planning.

What happens when they reach the mountain passes just before the Ca-Nev border, there barely enough room for the twisty highway and its a 6% grade down to the  basin, do you like roller coasters?

Who pays for all the overpasses that will need to be rebuilt.

Existing properties along the ROW next to the highways? just tell them to 'go away' ?

Any proposed rail system would be far better served by negotiating with UP to build a seperate dedicated ROW next to or near the existing UP ROW.

[DSchmitt]

25-30 years ago there was a big article (more than 1 full page with drawings) in the LA Times about proposed LA-LV HSR.  The first paragraph said it would be built with private money.  The last pargraph said they would start serious planning for it shortly.  They were waiting for their Goverment grant. 

[Southwest Chief]

I've seen a few responses about the whole Vegas train issue where many suggest to simply bring back the Desert Wind.  While I'd love to see this, a rebirth of the Desert Wind wouldn't be the right choice for an LA-Vegas train.

The Desert Wind was a great connection to Denver.  I took it many times and would love to take it now to get to Denver.  But it never had enough coach capacity and the schedule was all wrong for dedicated Vegas traffic.  Any business it did get from Vegas patronage was a small benefit to it's very meager bottom line.  Looking back to my many journeys on the train, very few of the passengers were taking it just to get to Vegas.  I never did.  The train did stop at Vegas for an extended period allowing passengers to get off the train and gamble for a while.  But it was more of a novelty then a reason to take the train.

Another thing though that I think is very important is unfortunately the Desert Wind ended a few years prematurely.  The Vegas we know of today (#1 tourist destination) was nowhere as popular back when the Wind came to town.  Ironically it seemed Vegas took off all of a sudden right after the Wind was cancelled   So perhaps things would be a lot different today if the Wind lasted just a few more years.

The best solution, and one that we came very close to getting, is a dedicated commuter type setup.  The first idea was a Talgo inspired train, and the trainsets were actually ready to go.  But in more recent times a Surfliner type trainset (double decker) now appears to be the best option.  However UP of course wants no part of it unless substantial portions of the tracks past Dagget are double tracked and passing sidings are greatly increased.  Thus no Vegas train any time soon.  Even though Amtrak pres Kummant says they'll look into a Vegas train, it's not happening without the substantial track work that UP says is needed to avoid major delays.  And more importantly, trackwork that no one wants to pay for.

[al-in-chgo]

I'm wondering if a special L.A. to Vegas train that ran selected dates could get around Amtrak's monopoly on L-D travel. 

I'm also thinking that if there were a way for a Los Angeles - Las Vegas train to make money, Vega$$ would have figured it out already.  Most of the (UP) line is in California, so the idea of planning such a train along the lines of a "drinkers and smokers and gamblers' express" might not hold.  Ditto the Bay Area to Reno, where our experience was that when the weekend hits, most of the recent arrivals seem to be from California.  Let the smoking begin! 

If you think a state law-enforcement agency can't raid a train, think again.  I don't recall the date, but sometime in the late Seventies - early Eighties Kansas officials raided the lounge on the Southwest Chief.  (It may still have been called the Southwest Limited back then.)

I'm not trying to throw cold water on the subject.  I think a train for drinkers, smokers and gamblers would be highly useful, even though I don't drink much and I rarely gamble .   - a. s.

 

 

[Ham Radio]

 

One of the arguments for high speed rail was that there are plenty of people in southern Nevada who would like to get out of Sin City and head to California for some non-casino vacation time at the beach, mountains or amusement parks.

While both states fiddle, Southwest Airlines keeps adding flights.

[ndbprr]

Who is going to accept the liability for a high speed rail line especially where it crosses the San Andreas fault?  Ain't going to be built ever.  They will find some insect or mouse and hold up for 100 years.

[spectratone]

does anybody remember how long it took for the old desert wind to get to vegas from L.A. ?

[Southwest Chief]

It took around 7 hours.  Looking to a 1994 timetable I have, it left Los Angeles at 10:55 AM and arrived in Las Vegas at 5:45 PM.   A 15 minute layover in Vegas is all this timetable has, but I recall it being longer in the 80s.

The schedule used to have it come into Las Vegas later.  This is the one I'm more familiar with since that's when I used to take the train a lot.  Not sure exactly when but the train (eastbound) came through Fullerton in the afternoon, maybe around 1:30 or so.  So figuring the same schedule roughly estimate around an 8:00 PM arrival into Vegas.  That seems about right since dinner was before Vegas.

Of course this train was never great for on time performance.  In the early days it had only one F40.  Unfortunately more often then not, either the HEP would go out, or the loco itself would die.  When the loco would die a freight loco would typically be called to help (either UP or Santa Fe).  Meaning max speed was then limited to freight speeds.  When the HEP went out the train was annulled and you'd be bussed to your destination...not a great alternative.

[tomikawaTT]

There is a project to do exactly this:

 

http://www.desertxpress.com/need.php

 

So let me get this straight, I am going to drive from LA to Victorville, get out of my car, and get on a train?  I don't know about most people but if I have driven that far, I am just going to keep going in my car.  Sounds to me like it is doomed to fail.

Here in Sin City, where everything having to do with tourism is HOT NEWS, I can't remember when anyone last mentioned high speed rail to LA without laughing.  In the meantime, there have been some serious improvements to I-15 on both sides of the Nevada-California border.  And McCarran, already one of the world's busiest airports, is building new terminal facilities.

The idea of leaving a car in a park-and-ride in the approximate heart of nowhere just to take a train (and then have to rent another car at the train's destination...)  Angelinos may be crazy, but they aren't stupid.

Chuck

[Prairietype]

Anyone who promotes a billion dollar rail project has no grasp on reality.

Anyone who promotes a 100+ million dollar rail project is only setting themselves up for disappointment and expending effort on futility.

Those who promote projects in the $3-$23 dollar range may have a 50/50 chance of success, and those odds may be marginally better if it is in the $3-$12 million dollar range.  

 

[ndbprr]

It isn't the cost it is the return on investment.  When I started my career in order for a project in industry to get management approval it had to have a payback of ten years.  Then it went to five years.  Now it is two years.  Lots of reasons but it all comes down to when do I start to make a profit on this.  No passenger service makes a profit anywhere in any industry.  This project is DOA.

[vsmith]

It isn't the cost it is the return on investment.  When I started my career in order for a project in industry to get management approval it had to have a payback of ten years.  Then it went to five years.  Now it is two years.  Lots of reasons but it all comes down to when do I start to make a profit on this.  No passenger service makes a profit anywhere in any industry.  This project is DOA.

2 years? Jeez, no wonder everything here is so messed up if investors are that impatient, or should I say greedy...or both.  

[oltmannd]

It isn't the cost it is the return on investment.  When I started my career in order for a project in industry to get management approval it had to have a payback of ten years.  Then it went to five years.  Now it is two years.  Lots of reasons but it all comes down to when do I start to make a profit on this.  No passenger service makes a profit anywhere in any industry.  This project is DOA.

The return on investement depends on how wide a net you cast around the returns.  If you include the net benefit to the casinos, you might clear the ROI threshold needed to get the money.

Casinos in AC used (and might still) to pay people to ride buses to their casinos.  The bus operation had costs but zero direct revenue.  They are also directly subsidizing impending NJT NY to AC train service. 

So, why not Las Vegas?

[oltmannd]

Who is going to accept the liability for a high speed rail line especially where it crosses the San Andreas fault? 

40 years of bullet trains in Japan - the most earthquake prone country in the world - including some ridiculous bridges and tunnels.  I don't think San Andreas is would be an obstacle to construction.

[ndbprr]

It isn't the greed of the investors. It is the greed of the government.  Anybody who makes money should send it to them so they can redistribute it.  The wealth for ALL employees of a company is generated by producing a product. The wealth of the government is gotten by taking it from the producers and diluting their profits. Nearly all the people I know in corporate America are not greedy.  they are very generous.  With declining revenue you have to do what you have to do. the government has destroyed one major industry group every ten years since FDR's  entitlement programs began to pay for them.  textiles, Steel, Auto, etc.  That is why you hear them badmouthing oil and Pharmaceuticals. they want to get their hands on the money.   And before anyone talks about oil I agree it is high but the oil companies are making less than 5 cents profit per gallon.  the government is taxing it in excess of $1.00 per gallon so who is greedy?  Who caused the subprime mortgage mess? the very Congress that say's they will investigate it.  If you make money you will wind up giving it to them one way or the other. Rant now over.

[al-in-chgo]

It isn't the greed of the investors. It is the greed of the government.  Anybody who makes money should send it to them so they can redistribute it.  The wealth for ALL employees of a company is generated by producing a product. The wealth of the government is gotten by taking it from the producers and diluting their profits. Nearly all the people I know in corporate America are not greedy.  they are very generous.  With declining revenue you have to do what you have to do. the government has destroyed one major industry group every ten years since FDR's  entitlement programs began to pay for them.  textiles, Steel, Auto, etc.  That is why you hear them badmouthing oil and Pharmaceuticals. they want to get their hands on the money.   And before anyone talks about oil I agree it is high but the oil companies are making less than 5 cents profit per gallon.  the government is taxing it in excess of $1.00 per gallon so who is greedy?  Who caused the subprime mortgage mess? the very Congress that say's they will investigate it.  If you make money you will wind up giving it to them one way or the other. Rant now over.

 

Yes, yes, yes!  Absolutely I agree with you.  Or as one of my bosses mentioned (back when I worked for the federal gov't):  "The problem with this country is that we already have socialism but nobody wants to admit it."  That's because everyone says they're philosophically opposed to socialism, but since the end of World War II, roughly, and intensifying during the Great Society years of the Sixties, and NOT abating though successive Republican and Democrat admnistration, the amount of money manipulated in such manner as ndprr mentions ever grows, hence the proportion of the economy federally manipulable grows, hence we become more and more dependent on our elected officials for succor; and, perhaps even worse, we become heir and prey to dopey decisions made by unelected bureaucrats who not only have no sense of the market (indeed, why should they?), but also lack a national viewpoint of what people seem to want and need; they can't get outside their little mind-views. 

Example:  even Consumer Reports admits that the best-quality of new toploading washing machines has deteriorated to the point of nearly unacceptable.  Why?  The feds made the washer manufacturers limit the amount of hot water by dialing top temperatures down to below warm/hot wash standards?  Why?  Not even to save energy, strictly speaking.  The notion was to FORCE consumers to buy the expensive new Euro-style front loaders for the home.  Why?  To conserve water, anticipating a trend toward scarce water that doesn't affect eighty-five percent of the population.  And look what's happened:  the people most hurt are those with the least ability to shell out $1,100 for a new washer instead of an unacceptable model for $500:  the working poor, in other words.  No wonder people can get so resentful, sometimes to the point of paranoia.  It's the POWER that representatives of both parties assure us is necessary to do for us what we couldn't do for ourselves.  There's a heck of a lot of B.S. included in this posture, especially since the more "innovative" solutions so often just transfer even more power to even more unelected folks -- if not defense, health care; if not health care; education; if not education, passing special kissy-poo laws to protect their pet (lobbying??) clients' corporations, such as extending patents on drugs that previously BY LAW were scheduled to expire.  Where's the logic or justice to that?  Only the modus operandi that arrogation of power leads to more, leads to more, as various core constituencies have more and more to do with power coalitions (PAC's, corporations, unions, fed. workers themselves), than with us . . .  small wonder that individual rights and freedoms are so often blithely ignored or abrogated these days.

Wow  . . .  how'd I wash from subsidized transport to home appliances?  Not to prove a point or indict democracy -- far from it.  Wouldn't it make more sense, though, for the people who benefit (lodges, restaurants, motels, guide services) to find some way to bring in the people cheaper than has been assumed?  For all that, wouldn't it even make more sense to give Amtrak more than the usual amount of fare discretion and ability to innovate as to entertainments offered, types of seating (the old parlor-car concept at LOTS of money?) -- and if Amtrak can't do it, to let some luxury-tour operator try by using its otherwise laid-over (in L.A.) equipment?  What's going on now -- zero subsidy for an L.A. to Vegas train -- is apparently OK with the casino's so can I really say they are being shortsighted?  I can, but consider the alternative -- more and more federal guessing and aggrandizing coming out of Washington, which is about as far away from the realities of drunk-driving in the desert as can exist in this land mass.  [A similar who's-to-benefit argument is going on re the Empire Builder on an adjacent site--this is just IMHO but I wonder if to directly subsidize the U.S. Parks Service (Dept of Interior?) at Yellowstone so that they can bring in more people during shoulder seasons and fewer during summer peaks might be better than subsidizing civil aviation to the tune of $65 plus -- up to hundreds -- per passenger into these remote public airports?] 

Instead, what we have going on in this thread is something that concerns many elected officials (and I won't say it doesn't thrill a few) -- us fighting over scraps, proving to their minds at least that the taxpayers are a bunch of emotional boobies who must needs be cared for.   -

- thanks for hearing me out,

[Dakguy201]

The reaosn it isn't done is the problem with the equipment required.  From LA to Vegas, you need an American Orient style and service consist.  To return, third class coaches reclaimed from India will suffice.      

[Railway Man]

The reaosn it isn't done is the problem with the equipment required.  From LA to Vegas, you need an American Orient style and service consist.  To return, third class coaches reclaimed from India will suffice.      

[JT22CW]

Union Pacific doesn't want it operating on their freight corridor, and any high speed rail proposal is just pie-in-the-sky because there is no funding for it, public or private .

Let's not forget the environmentalist whackos that will oppose and sue to stop any additional rail lines that might offend a scrub weed, an insect or a tortoise.

IIRC, the desert tortoise argument was shot full of holes when the environmental report came back. Adding the second track to the UP corridor (which would put Amtrak out of UP's way) would not harm the desert tortoise, and was actually found to be more beneficial to said turtle species than not adding the track.

It isn't the greed of the investors. It is the greed of the government. Anybody who makes money should send it to them so they can redistribute it. The wealth for ALL employees of a company is generated by producing a product. The wealth of the government is gotten by taking it from the producers and diluting their profits. Nearly all the people I know in corporate America are not greedy. they are very generous. With declining revenue you have to do what you have to do. the government has destroyed one major industry group every ten years since FDR's entitlement programs began to pay for them. textiles, Steel, Auto, etc. That is why you hear them badmouthing oil and Pharmaceuticals. they want to get their hands on the money. And before anyone talks about oil I agree it is high but the oil companies are making less than 5 cents profit per gallon. the government is taxing it in excess of $1.00 per gallon so who is greedy? Who caused the subprime mortgage mess? the very Congress that say's they will investigate it. If you make money you will wind up giving it to them one way or the other. Rant now over.

Um, what? The government has destroyed our major industry?? It was all the investors' lobbying that induced the government to facilitate the moves to China and other countries to begin with! So please don't tell me that the investors are not greedy, because they wanted this very badly due to the increased profits they could garner from the cheaper labor in these countries (often well over the thousand-percent mark). CEO pay levels rose, from the 1980s through now, from between 15 and 20 times the average employee salary to well over 300 times the average employee salary. If these same people were not greedy, then they would keep all of their production domestic.

$1.00 per gallon? What are you talking about? Federal gasoline tax is 18.5¢ per gallon, states charge their rates per gallon (which are higher), and most of this either goes to highway building/repair or (in some very small cases) public transportation. As for the Crude Oil Windfall Profit Tax of 1980, that was repealed in 1988 with the passing of the Omnibus Foreign Trade and Competitiveness Act; I haven't heard of any other major tax on crude oil other than the new one that has been proposed of late. Crude oil fees and taxes are in fractions of cents per barrel, for domestic oil production. For a mere 5¢/gallon at the pump, the oil companies are still making out like bandits, aren't they? or perhaps their profits are far higher than that estimate...? (Five years ago, regular gas was still well under $2/gallon; I still have receipts that state $1.78/gallon.)

Furthermore, if the government has been continually cutting taxes, how are they "greedy" after a fashion? Their greed has been reflected through all the borrowing they've been engaged in, if anything. If the government can make a ton of money via taxation alone, the budget would have been remarkably balanced. Consider which years we went from being a creditor nation to a debtor nation.

[ndbprr]

Your arguements are so full of holes it would take a book or more to address them.  I stand by my statements completely particularly that the government does create wealth it takes it from every producing American.  Tne government is not continuously cutting taxes and when they do the revenues increase - every time without exception.  If cutting taxes is so bad how come the current stimulus  package will work since they are giving us back our money to spend?

[Chafford1]

A recent article from the Associated Press on rival high speed links to Las Vegas is attached below:

http://asp.usatoday.com/travel/GCITravel/InsidePage.aspx?sUrl=/travel/news/2008-02-25-vegas-disneyland-train_N.xml&cId=theithacajournal

The DesertXpress project plans to use 125mph British Class 222 Meridian Diesel Multiple Units

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_222

 

[spectratone]

A recent article from the Associated Press on rival high speed links to Las Vegas is attached below:

http://asp.usatoday.com/travel/GCITravel/InsidePage.aspx?sUrl=/travel/news/2008-02-25-vegas-disneyland-train_N.xml&cId=theithacajournal

The DesertXpress project plans to use 125mph British Class 222 Meridian Diesel Multiple Units

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_222

 

I think they made a mistake when they said 10 million a year. I was on the freeway when all 10 million decided to go to vegas on one day.  seriously, I live in the high desert, about 50 miles from victorville. I thought how nice it would be just to hop on a train in barstow/victorville and let someone else drive while avoiding the traffic, accidents, idiots driving 90mph, and weather plus wear and tear on my car and the high price of gas/diesel. Flying is out of the question becuase by the time I get to and waste time at an airport I could have driven.  I don,t see maglev working unless we start stealing copper back from the chinese. The old desert wind took too long to get to vegas and was not reliable. if all your going to do is gamble and see shows in vegas you don,t need a car. they have taxies and busses.  You can't hardly drive down the strip with all the traffic anyway. The only problem I see is making  victorville the starting point. If your in LA You still have to drive over the cajon pass. Unless they bus you from selected areas around LA to victorville. And make it affordable and compedetive with airline travel. I say build and stop screwing around. The way the price of fuel is going up alot of us won,t be able to go anywhere soon.  And for cryin out loud stop worring about the turtles, rats, and bugs, they either have legs, wings, or can crawl away. Doesn,t anybody see these guys know how to work the system? They get money from bleeding heart fools and then spend years in court fighting any progress till the moneys all gone then they look for another big venture . These guys don,t care about the desert or they would all be out here on the weekend picking up trash that is everywhere. I would be more then happy to post pictures to show you the garbage.