Route of the '400'

[CG9602]

Now that's something I didn't know. I knew that there were some "deals" made in order to influence the choice of the MILW over the CNW, but I didn't think that the CNW would promote the MILW versus its own route. One would think that the CNW would want as much business as possible over its own rails but obviously that wasn't the case here. I thought it was because the CNW didn't want to maintain its line to passenger standards.
What a disappointment.

[eolafan]

I believe it was really all about which road had the most population centers between Chicago and the Twin Cities, and that was indodubtedly MLW, especially with Wisconsin Dells tourist area as a stop (you can literally walk from the station to a hotel in minutes).

[Noah Hofrichter]

And also in the Dells, you get off the train, walk one block, and your in the heart of downtown Dells, with all the tourist traps up the....well you know........

Noah

[CG9602]

I always wondered why the North Western put on a presentation to get the Amtrak on to the MILW. However, I thought that the 400 route had more population than the MILW route. I wondered why Amtrak didn't divert to the CNW route when it went through Camp Douglas.

[jeaton]

I think that when Amtrak was first set up, at least the T&E personnel, if not all other on-board personnel, were employees of the host railroad. That would have made train routing over different carriers somewhat dicey if shifts from one railroad to another didn't occure at normal crew terminal points.

Jay

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CG9602

Now that's something I didn't know. I knew that there were some "deals" made in order to influence the choice of the MILW over the CNW, but I didn't think that the CNW would promote the MILW versus its own route. One would think that the CNW would want as much business as possible over its own rails but obviously that wasn't the case here. I thought it was because the CNW didn't want to maintain its line to passenger standards.
What a disappointment.

The CNW did not want business that lost money.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

I think that when Amtrak was first set up, at least the T&E personnel, if not all other on-board personnel, were employees of the host railroad. That would have made train routing over different carriers somewhat dicey if shifts from one railroad to another didn't occure at normal crew terminal points.

Jay

This statement is very true and describes a major problem that plagued ATK from its beginning until it got its own T&E crews. It still can rear its ugly head at times if the crew districts weren't set up right. A good example of this problem was the early San Joaquins, which switched between ATSF and SP between crew change points and which were required to carry both RR's crews on the train, on duty (one active-one effectively deadheading) over the northern end of the route, with a swap occurring onboard when the train switched RRs. So they got one for the price of two on every run--such a deal! I don't recall this being a problem with OBS crews, as they were ATK employees. In other cases, like the Inter-American/TX Eagle, they apportioned the MP/ATSF crew days by % of RR mileage between DAL and SAT, with the individual RR crew going all the way, and each RR supplying entire crews that were called according to the % mileage formula. This latter method tracks a common method by which railroads with joint pax (and some freight) through operations allocated the assigned motive power.

As you can probably tell, this was a complicated and costly process--keeping the train on a single RR over the crew district avoided either scheme and was thus far more efficient. But, in some cases it resulted in a loss of market penetration unattributable to inherent ATK attitudes, biases, etc.

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

The CNW did not want business that lost money.

RE: "business that lost money", while there are obviously some debatable issues that can be discussed elsewhere, Amtrak services have rarely, if ever, caused a host RR to lose money in any substantial quantity. An example: everybody I think knows of the historic SP negative position in this vein on claimed lack of financial return from Amtrak operations, which lasted until the early 1980's, when an astute member of the SP BOD took a close look at the books and determined that Amtrak was SP's 5th largest customer! Took them all by complete surprise. As has been noted on several other threads regarding various corporate and government financial mythologies and public positions, you can really get in trouble when you start believing your own "stuff" (substitute your own potentially more appropriate word here).

[railman]

Glad to see the 400 discussion is alive and well.

[Noah Hofrichter]

bobwilcox

QUOTE: The CNW did not want business that lost money.

No kiddn' they didn't! They even pushed away the foundry here in my town, along the 400 route, in some of there last years, as they didn't want the business. They will not ship with any railroad anymore, even though a different railroad now operates it. FUnny thing though, they are going to be using a Trucking company as a front and a truck rail transfer place, as a new industry is going in to town with a new rail spur, which will mainly be serving the foundry.

Noah

[Anonymous]

The 400's were great trains. I hope that Amtrak or some other organization can develope trains in America that can go 400 miles in 2.5 hours.

Forever live the CNW

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

My memories of the 400's are twofold. While in grade school, I rode the "Peninsula 400" from Chicago to Marinette, WI. The train was equipped with bi-level coaches (only 96 seats), a full diner, and a bi-level coach-lounge. Service and timekeeping were excellent. In my freshman year at NIU, I rode the remnant of the "Kate Shelley 400" to Chicago from De Kalb. By that time, the train was down to an E7A and two coaches and was C&NW's last steam-heated train. I also got pictures of the "Kate Shelley 400" in De Kalb on its last run on April 30, 1971.

[Railroad Brat]

[quote user="railman"]In "honor" of my 400th post, I thought it was only fitting to start a topic about the Chicago & North Western's famous 400 streamliner. Although it drew traffic from my favorite, the Hi, it still was one of the many proud liners in the memories of many on the forums.

SO...let's hear it. The 400. Stories, technical debates, intersting facts, tidbits, you all know what to do. Let's check our ego's at the door and talk trains....discussion starts, now.

 

[/quoMy

 

[Dakguy201]

http://s175.photobucket.com/user/Dakguy201/media/Consist%2028_zpsjrq4pvlc.jpg.html]

[Wizlish]

If you have to reference a Skytop in a 'voodoo' 400 thread, at least use one in yellow:

(Not quite the right yellow, but at least it's a start...)

 

EDIT -- explanations of the name are there now, just not rendering properly on my system (I have the option to display 'last post first' set, and whenever I post the display reverts to showing the posts in first-to-last, but with the pages 'numbered' last-to-first, or something (so I have to guess if page "1" is the first page of posts, or the last page of posts being displayed in reverse order).  I am so heartily sick of these people who claim to be interface developers and can't figure out consistent semantics...

[Deggesty]

Wizlish

If you have to reference a Skytop in a 400 thread, at least use one in yellow:

(Not quite the right yellow, but at least it's a start...)

 

But that yellow came into use after the North Western lost the Cities.

[schlimm]

Deggesty

after the North Western lost the Cities.

Unfortunately, the CNW wanted to be rid of the Cities trains to save money.  The maintenance of the Chicago to Omaha RoW for fast passenger service was neglected so that the UP was forced to switch to the MILW in October 1955.

I rode the old Kate Shelly to Dekalb once, although as a child I recall seeing the City streamliners passing through town many times and saw the various '400 Fleet' trains at the Madison St. terminal..

[Wizlish]

[quote user="Railroad Brat"]

railman

In "honor" of my 400th post, I thought it was only fitting to start a topic about the Chicago & North Western's famous 400 streamliner. Although it drew traffic from my favorite, the Hi, it still was one of the many proud liners in the memories of many on the forums.

SO...let's hear it. The 400. Stories, technical debates, intersting facts, tidbits, you all know what to do. Let's check our ego's at the door and talk trains....discussion starts, now.

 

[/quoMy

Brat, I think you were about to say something highly interesting, but 'the dog ate your homework' electronically.  Considering the information in your profile -- tell us more!

[CMStPnP]

C&NW had an identity crisis in the 1970's which I think caused it to lose some traffic.   It's parent company really wanted to sell the railroad and it basically did first to employees.    Not sure if the employees then sold the railroad back to the parent company or they found a new firm.    Anyway, decision was made for employees to sell the property after they saw the potential of coal trains from Wyoming because they could not raise the funds needed themselves "as is" to rebuild the line West from Chicago.

Milwaukee Road was a lot more innovative and aggressive at capturing new rail traffic than C&NW was in Wisconsin in my opinion.    Not sure why that was but C&NW didn't really seem interested in railroading for the long-term.    Milwaukee wasn't very aggressive at persuing or retaining traffic but they were MORE so than C&NW.   Maybe bankruptcy or the threat of it had something to do with Milwaukee being more energetic.

Under UP.......well, UP isn't doing to well marketing the ex-C&NW secondary mains in Wisconsin and branch lines.   It could market the line to Sheboygan, WI a whole lot better but it has decided that it is only really interested in the coal traffic on that line and the rest they really are not bending over backwards in an attempt to retain.     I think once WSOR reaches Sheboygan via Sheboygan Falls in the next year or two over an ex-C&NW line, they should be able to undercut UP on rates on just about anything and possibly including the coal train they currently run.   I think the State of Wisconsin thinks so as well and that is one reason it is paying for the rebuilding of that line  We'll see.    I would hope for an upgrade or rebuild of the line to Manitowoc from Sheboygan and potentially back to Green Bay

UP  should have sold the North Milwaukee to Green Bay line to WSOR and just kept trackage rights on it to serve the power plant.    I am thinking that is what the end result will be a WSOR purchase of the line at some point.    It really looks like the UP's intent is to abandon the line North of Milwaukee after the coal contract terminates with the power plant it is now serving.

[Wizlish]

Deggesty

Wizlish

If you have to reference a Skytop in a 400 thread, at least use one in yellow:

(Not quite the right yellow, but at least it's a start...)

 

 

But that yellow came into use after the North Western lost the Cities.

 By 'right yellow' I meant Stagecoach Yellow, not that defective Pantone 102C stuff.   

I do wonder if,were you to squint a bit at the picture above, and perhaps imagine that the gray bits are actually apple green, you might be able to imagine how a Brooks Stevens 400 might have looked...

[schlimm]

[/quote]

Wizlish

I do wonder if,were you to squint a bit at the picture above, and perhaps imagine that the gray bits are actually apple green, you might be able to imagine how a Brooks Stevens 400 might have looked...

No thanks.  The NorthWestern and the Milwaukee each had their own distinctive designs for passenger equipment.  Blending is blasphemy!!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The sentiment is well-placed.  While gallery coaches are hardly a distinctive design, they were "400" equipment and it would be hard for me to envision gallery coaches in Armour Yellow and Harbor Mist Grey on the "Hiawathas".