Commuter trains have way too many conducters and assistant conducters to take tickets. a POP system where you validate your ticket before you sit down would work and a system that sences who is sitting where would help too.
One of the problems with the honor system with spot checks is that most people assume that there are going to be a fair number of freeloaders with such a system and that the taxpaying public will pick up the slack.
In Chicago, except for the IC Electric, trains board from low-level platforms, making it difficult to control access. Many stations are open only during morning rush, which means that ticket-vending machines would have to be built to withstand the elements, making them more expensive. I'm also not sure how much money would be saved since adjusting crew requirements would require renegotiation of existing labor contracts.
schlimmYes. Far more efficient, especially for non-regular riders.
Here, here..........I third that sentiment. I like the Dallas TRE approach. Ticket kiosks at every station with a validator built in..........only spot checks on the train. Mostly the honor system.
I think your going to find with Chicago though it's because the system is run by multi-decade tenured railroaders that were taught by or learned their jobs from the former Privately run railroad railroaders......where every penny and nickel was counted. In the days of taxpayer supported service, if you don't get them at the farebox.......they are going to pay via taxes.
oltmannd CandOforprogress2 Many conducters that i know are complaing that they have to walk up and down sets of stairs to collect tickets and since many are older and heaver this is causing back problems. Look in future for a POP system on NJ Transit and MARC trains with these new cars. I think the real question is why conductors and trainmen are still lifting tickets on commuter trains. Lots of places in the world use automated fare collection systems. ...even South Africa.
CandOforprogress2 Many conducters that i know are complaing that they have to walk up and down sets of stairs to collect tickets and since many are older and heaver this is causing back problems. Look in future for a POP system on NJ Transit and MARC trains with these new cars.
Many conducters that i know are complaing that they have to walk up and down sets of stairs to collect tickets and since many are older and heaver this is causing back problems. Look in future for a POP system on NJ Transit and MARC trains with these new cars.
I think the real question is why conductors and trainmen are still lifting tickets on commuter trains. Lots of places in the world use automated fare collection systems. ...even South Africa.
Yes. Far more efficient, especially for non-regular riders.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
But even 22yeaars ago on a typ;icak gallery-car Chicago commuter train, a conductor or trainman could go through several cars withoiut lifting any tickets, just noting the monthly tickets clipped for him or her to view as proceeding down the ailse, because all the pssengers in these cars had monthlies and not individujal tickets. So it is not quite as obsolete a system as you might think.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Iam going to start a new thread on General Discussion on long trains with short sidings.
I had neglected to note all the stops, mostly made by train B, to pick-up and drop off its and train A's second man to position them for couplinig, uncoupling, and hand-brake tie-down, so they do not need to walk the length or half-lenth of the train. Also, both trains at some point need to back up to restore the seonc crewman to the enginer from a position half-way back, done after both trains have cleared the siding.
Note that with the last addition, there would be no need to walk the length, even the half length, of the trains. The trains themselves, usually the B train locomotive, would do the job of ferrying the crewmen. Still would take three or four hours because of the walks necessary to set and release handbrakes, time to set and release handbrakes, times to pump up air. No-one today would recommend this as rebular operating pracitce, and you are entirely correct in this matter. The sawby with long trains is probably in use very seldom, oly in emergencies that resulted from some errors.
In my 1952-1953 Boston and Maine days, the saw-by usually occured with short transfer and peddler runs, sometimes as short as ten cars, with sidings that were not meant for passing tracks but for local delivaryand pick-up, often stub-end sidings. Yes, a saw-by is even possible with a stub-end siding, but I wil let someone else have the spleasure of explaining how.
Remember you are talking about 15,000 ft trains. And not a sidewalk to walk on. It takes a long time to walk three miles on gravel. And this meet is how far from the crews starting point? The hog law will end this stupidty I expect. As stated earlier, the 1950's shorter trains had four (or five) crewmen plus the men were on each end. The HOS limit was much greater than today. I wonder how much money the CSX saved by running the extended length train that stringlined at Fostoria and then lost on the derailment. The expression "Penny wise, pound foolish" comes to mind.
[quote user="daveklepper"]
[quote user="BaltACD"] Um I loved Model Railroaders "Switching Puzzels" in the 1980s...anybody have dates of when that ran?
zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set.
If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set.
Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings.
[/quote]
In my opinion, even for regular locomotives, as long as there is at least one active air compressor in the consist already tied to the train, keeping trainline pressure up, if you add more locomotives to the consist and MU connect them, doing the 'lashing up' won't interfere with the standing condition of the automatic brake -- trainline not interfered with, and therefore no legal need for an air test.
The interlocomotive "MU" air hoses are for the independent brake and reservoir equalization. Connecting or disengaging those shouldn't affect the automatic directly (and the automatic 'Westinghouse' is the subject of Power Brake Law issues)
RDCs have a different MU system, and if I recall correctly their 'native' brake system is different. Some were used in 'trailer' operation behind passenger consists, but I don't remember what was done to make them suitable; I also do not remember them being able to 'control' the brakes of such a train from the control cab directly a la monkeytail. But it would be interesting to find out whether that could be done.
EMUs might have something like Tomlinson or Scharfenberg couplers, where the air connections are made automatically when coupled or uncoupled and each part keeps its air pumped up. But the idea you might have a 15,000' train of EMUs is a little peculiar ... who has ADA-compliant platforms that long?
OvermodI'm still thinking you will have to perform an air test ... which involves inspecting the full length of the consist, supposedly on both sides, twice (once to verify the brakes go on, and once to verify they release properly) -- every time one of your cuts is attached. And these consists are how long, with what kind of access back along the train?
Picking up a a solid block of cars previously tested and not off air for longer than 4 hours? Should need only a class III continuity test.
It's the handbrake rules, charging rules, and shoving rules that are going to eat all your time.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I'm still thinking you will have to perform an air test ... which involves inspecting the full length of the consist, supposedly on both sides, twice (once to verify the brakes go on, and once to verify they release properly) -- every time one of your cuts is attached. And these consists are how long, with what kind of access back along the train?
I don't know if you can do part of a brake test while riding on a parallel train, but I'm not sure I'd risk any brownies finding out by trying. Railroaders here will know if that's legal or advisable.
Half a crew's full legal hours on one saw-by -- with the very likely probability that one or both crews might go on the law in the middle of the procedure -- is not exactly an advisable time for what is supposed to become a SOP with longer trains. And this says nothing about what happens to all the rest of the traffic on the railroad while this is going on. Or if one or more of a great many things happens and causes increased delay...
Yes, you might get around some of the responsibility with 'modern methods' and it might be interesting to discuss some.
And B's sec ond man need noat stay with the B rear. Just a short walk to the rear of A-front-half, and then on that rear as it backs to pick up the rear hald where a-second-man is waiting. B will then wait with its rear even with the front of A-secon-half, until B reboards. No vilation of rules at all with this addition.
I was not proposing anything illegal except the blind backup of A in reassembling the train. But ini many cases A's second man stationed at the A departure switch would have line-of-sight to the front half as it is backing up, or at least when it came close. Otherwise, yes, the necessary handbrakes would be set on the rear half both when standing on the main at the start of the sawboy9 and standing in the siding near the end of the sawby. Time would be requried to apply and release in both cases, and pump up air, etc. That is all time consouming, and three or foiur hours for the total operation is ressonable. Less, of course, if help is provided. And I do not see it possible on a heavy grade, where too many handbrakes would be required.
daveklepperVERY TRUE. It can still be accomplished with a two-man crew, just takes a bit longer. With one-man crews it would take all day and tire people out very greatly. Assuming a man can ride a rear car on a back-up move, here is how to do it with two-man crews, assuming perfect radio contact, all systems go, etc.
What I want to see is how this is done without bottling the air at some point, or avoiding some or all the provisions of a legal brake test when any train is 'remade' with a large additional cut of cars added to its consist (either 'temporarily' or permanently.
Seems to my eyes that any temporary movement of this length of cuts without active air braking is a major violation of the spirit and principle of, and indeed the common sense behind, the Power Brake Law and its successors. And just as cavalier connection and disconnection of one-pipe-braked cuts is often ultimately 'enforced in blood', so might this be... unless an exacting procedure is followed each time to assure as much safety as prescribed for general operation.
A couple of potentially interesting discussion questions:
Could this be done with ECP, and if so, with what technical provisions (and should those provisions, if not included in Sarah's Concern, be provided in that mandate?)
What changes to the laws and regulations would be needed to implement this procedure, or one like it, assuming a suitable ECP installation that did permit it safely (in an objective sense)?
VERY TRUE. It can still be accomplished with a two-man crew, just takes a bit longer. With one-man crews it would take all day and tire people out very greatly. Assuming a man can ride a rear car on a back-up move, here is how to do it with two-man crews, assuming perfect radio contact, all systems go, etc.
Train A stops at the point where thre rear half is to be uncoupled, more than half a train-length from the approaching switch to the siding. The second man uloads at that p;oint and is responsbile for the uncoupling, closing the rear of the air of the forward half of A, and setting the necessary hand brakes on forward cars of the rear half. He is the one doing most of the owrk. The engineer of A will have to operate the switch to the siding if it is a hand-throw. But must must be understood that all swtiches must be checked for position and no assumptions made aqbout switches returned to main from siding position.
When B pulls through the siding the first time, a stop is made at its arrival switch (A's departure switch) to drop B's second man so he can ride the rear end. When B has pulled throiugh the siding with the rear end in the cleer for the front half of A to pull a whole trainlength and a bit more ahead, B boards the rear of B, so he can control the backup more after the front half of A proceeds. And at that time, after releasing the handbrakes on the rear half of A, A's second man boards B's power to ride as it pulls the rear half of A intio the siding. And he stays at the front of the rear-half of A, again setting the handbrakes, when B's power goes to rejoin its train. After Bs pull through the siding a second time (with B's second man still on the rear end, more later), A backs up blind, but with A's second man at the switch and able to communicate with the engineer. After the recoupling of the two halves of A, and releasing the handbrakes, A's second man must walk forward the half =-train length to reboard the locomotive or ride out of the siding half-way back on the train.
At sometime after the meet. B must get a backup move from the dispatcher to pick up his second man who had been riding rear. A can do the same if hsi second man has not walked forward from the train's half-way point.
With today's long trains, I would suspect the dispatcher would have to allow three or four hours for all this with two-man crews. With one-man crews tlhel meet would take enough time to outlaw any further operation by the crew.
I think today a sawby would be used only in an emergency to correct a dispatching mistake and keep the rialroad fluid. If there were access roads, possbly additional manpower could be sent to the siding to speed things up a bit, with vehicles also used to reposition men.
The B&M Portsboiuth - Summerville Yard frieght that I rode regularly did have a four-man crew, two (plus me) in the GP-7 and two in the caboose. I never expeienced a sawby myself, just learned about it. The line was double-track from Boston to Newburyport, and any meets we had were south of that point.
I think today Newbryport - Portmouth is abandoned, Portsmouth still has frieght service, I think, via short east-west branch from the existing Boston - Portland main line, a line that use to continoue to Nashua, but was abandoned betwen the junction and Nashua. The T purple line provides commuter service to Newburyport, and PanAm may still be providing freight service there.
daveklepper BaltACD zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back. And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings. Can be done. takes lots of time heard it called "saw-by." Trqain A drops is rear half more than a train length before entering siding wiht front half. Train B runs through siding until locomotive is just before rear half of train A Front half of train A now leaves siding in its forward direction until rear of front half is more than a train length beyond siding. Train B now backs back through the enitre siding or main to beond the siding. Locomotive B now fetches the rear half of train A and pulls it into the sidinig and leaves there. Locomotive B continues to back to recouple to its complete train and continues its trip, passong A's rear half on the siding. A backs its first half into the siding to recouple to its rear half and continues its trip. . I think all freight railroaders know this. They did on the B&M in 1953.
BaltACD zugmann BaltACD If Passenger Conductors feel that double deck cars are too much work, they can go back and be a freight conductor - they will only climb on and off the locomotive when they walk their 9000 to 15000 foot trains (each way) when trouble happens. The will only have to set 10% or more hand brakes (depending on territory) when securing their train for a pick up or set off, of course to leave they will have to release the hand brakes they set. Or they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back. And devise a plan to meet opposing 15K foot trains with existing 10K foot sidings.
In 1953 you had manned cabooses on the rear of trains that were staffed with 4 or 5 man crews. 2016 you don't, engineer & conductor are maximum crew complement - both on head end. 1953 air brakes, with a open trainline, were expected to hold - in 2016 10% or more hand brakes have to be applied when cutting away from a portion of a train under any circumstance (weed weasels) and the point of any reverse move is to be ridden (or otherwise protected) while it is being moved. It could still be done today, however, it would probably outlaw both crews as well as have the conductors being treated for exhaustion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
While a saw-by or a double saw-by may be possible, I'm sure that executing such a move would tie up the main line for a long time. It's also the maneuver that got Casey Jones killed.
[quote user="BaltACD"]
zugmannOr they could get a job in the dispatch office. Walk 9 feet to the coffee machine and back.
What company could be so cruel to put the coffe maker nine feet away?
Corner of the desk is more humane.
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Chicago Metra Conducters are quilified on there home Freight Road. while eastern conducters are quilified only on there passenger road. Twin Cities NorthStar BNSF and some LA runs use also freight quilified conducters.
The old LIRR double deckers had one isle, the conductors reach both up and down.
Gallery cars LOAD on the lower level, Eastern double deckers load at the mid level isle.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Dont remember the inside of GO train 1980s bilevel can someone pull that up please cant find it
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