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Who said "Commuter rail won't work around LA ?"

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Who said "Commuter rail won't work around LA ?"
Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, April 3, 2014 4:03 PM

15 Years ago the common wisdom was commuter rail would not work in the LA area.  This poster was of that same mind. Now commuter passenger loads are so heavy on the San Bernardino line that Metra is proposing more double track to enable express trains to run to LAX Union station.  Then how will there be enough parking for the obvious increase in passengers be handled ? 

Look at the difference in travel times express vs local.   Maybe the platforms at the express stations need to be longer there by reducing # of new trains ? ?

LINK:  

 

http://www.sgvtribune.com/business/20140402/metrolink-metro-propose-more-express-trains-for-crowded-san-bernardino-line

 

Article says train with over 600 passengers was standing room only.  How many cars on this train ?

 

 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:01 PM

Guys, "LAX" is either an airport in Los Angeles, or a sport played in many schools there.  The region is "LA" and I do not expect this abbreviation to change substantially any time soon. 

Parking at the outlying stations can be easily handled with offsite parking and shuttles, if there is inadequate land for parking at or near the physical stations. It might be interesting to see the result of incentives for vanpooling or better kiss 'n ride type facilities... or enhanced amenities for travelers using BEVs or similar types of transport to get to and from the trains.

I would not expect very much originating traffic at or near LAUPT (if Dave Klepper can make notes about 'terminal', so can I!) so I do not think that parking per se is a great difficulty there.  However, coordinating access to other forms of transport there is definitely a major priority for planners; I'd be looking for alternative 'transport nexi' or transfer points to relieve some of the concentration.

I like the idea of longer express platforms -- but the same effect can be had simply by stopping the longer train at different points relative to the fixed platform to equalize the carloadings, with appropriate notes to any 'intermediate' passengers that they should board in the 'overlap' section(s).  There is still the issue of how to handle the longer trains on arrival downtown... I can think of some kludges, but nothing that really substitutes for longer platforms with multiple means of getting passengers "off and out", including those going to other trains...

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Posted by erikem on Thursday, April 3, 2014 9:07 PM

Several of the stations on the LOSSAN corridor have multi-level parking structures, and wouldn't be surprised to see more go up in the future.

Quite a bit of the traffic from the Inland Empire ends up in Orange County, including a few of my co-workers.

- Erik

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, April 3, 2014 10:16 PM

Overmod

Guys, "LAX" is either an airport in Los Angeles, or a sport played in many schools there.  The region is "LA" and I do not expect this abbreviation to change substantially any time soon. 

I would not expect very much originating traffic at or near LAUPT

Overmod:  Since Amtrak's national time table page 15 lists Los Angeles train station  as  ""  LAX  Los Angeles Union Station ""   that would be the correct terminology that most rail fans will understand ?  Many locations thru out the USA use the same airline identifiers for rail stations ! Such as PDX, BWI, PHL, MIA, ATL, SEA, MSP.

You will find locations that have either more than one train station or more than one airport do not follow the airport designations.  One exception I know is Orlando which is ORL  -  RR and ORL airport is executive airport Orlando. Probably others.

Of course there are exceptions and abbreviations for those places with no air service.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:00 PM

blue streak 1
Overmod:  Since Amtrak's national time table page 15 lists Los Angeles train station  as  "LAX  Los Angeles Union Station"   that would be the correct terminology that most rail fans will understand ?

No objection whatsoever; the identifier here is shorthand for city with the station location appended.  (I like the way the original post has been edited.)  I'm not as sure that the code refers to the station itself.  A test case might be Newark, where Penn Station is the major stop and there is now a dedicated stop for "Liberty" which is technically what code EWR should map to... what does the current timetable say?  [I confess to being too lazy to actually try to find out on line... ;-} )

Out of curiosity, does Metrolink use the three-letter 'airport' codes anywhere?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, April 4, 2014 5:33 AM

Overmod

.  A test case might be Newark, where Penn Station is the major stop and there is now a dedicated stop for "Liberty" which is technically what code EWR should map to... what does the current timetable say?  [I confess to being too lazy to actually try to find out on line... ;-} )

Newark Penn is   "NWK"  Liberty airport RR station is  "EWR".   Interestingly Baltimore airport station is  "BWI" and down town Baltimore Penn is  "BAL"  which was the original airport identifier until city fathers wanted to call the airport an international airport  BWI  =  Baltimore Washington International.

One RR identifier that is puzzling is San Antonia.  Airport is  "SAT " which is understandable  but RR is  "SAS".  Could have a whole thread on identifiers ?.

 

Out of curiosity, does Metrolink use the three-letter 'airport' codes anywhere?

 Unknown but Amtrak identifiers are mainly for reservations and checked baggage.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 4, 2014 6:39 AM

blue streak 1
One RR identifier that is puzzling is San Antonia.  Airport is  "SAT " which is understandable  but RR is  "SAS". 

This goes all the way back to the days when the Inter-American used the site of the former MP station in San Antonio on its way from Fort Wort to Laredo.  Both stations were active for anumber of years, which coincided with the intro of Amtrak's original computerized reservation system.

SAS - San Antonio [Southern Pacific] (or maybe Sunset?)

SAM - San Antonio [Missouri Pacific]

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 4, 2014 8:06 AM

Our society here in the US has been so brainwashed into believing that the only way to travel long distances is by air and shorter distances by personal automobile.  The fact that most commuter rail operations become successful or at least meet their initial goals long before the predicted time shows the fallacy of our gas and concrete purveyors.  Sam with inter city and regional rail.   Look at the successes we have had here in services like  Downeaster,  Northwest, several Mid west corridors, and in the Carolinas' for example.  And there are reports here that they younger generation looks to rail over auto ownership.  Then turn to this month's Trains Magaziine article by Matt Van Hattam about Europe's HSR trains and see that both the service factor and the young generations turn to trains is echoed over there.  

What happened was that autos and airplanes came along and were marketed  and shoved down our throats in dazzling fashion.  And being blinded and always anxious for the new and willing to quickly throw away what we have, we dropped the train giving the rails to the freight movers.  Today, we are all having to face the problems of highway congestion, lack of space for new highways, environmental concerns, and the preciousness of fuels.  And these concerns are leading us back to the rails.  It is a mindset which is changing here and around the world.  But we must throw away the choo choo of old and adapt to the trains and railroads of today and the future.  But, if we have learned anything, we must not just throw away the jet plane and automobiles in trade for trains but build a system of transportation and not just the offering of different modes.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, April 4, 2014 11:30 AM

I'd be interested in knowing how much of the ridership has been induced, that is, how many riders arranged their lives around the existence of the commuter rail line?  Is the growth mostly conversion of exisiting trips or creation of new trips?  I'd suspect the latter since the growth has occurred over time.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, April 4, 2014 11:55 AM

henry6
What happened was that autos and airplanes came along and were marketed  and shoved down our throats in dazzling fashion.  And being blinded and always anxious for the new and willing to quickly throw away what we have, we dropped the train giving the rails to the freight movers.  Today, we are all having to face the problems of highway congestion, lack of space for new highways, environmental concerns, and the preciousness of fuels.  And these concerns are leading us back to the rails.  It is a mindset which is changing here and around the world.  But we must throw away the choo choo of old and adapt to the trains and railroads of today and the future.

 I am glad you are opening your eyes.  

#1.The primary reason folks abandoned passenger rails was that automobiles and airplanes offered big advantages in speed and convenience at the time.

#2 Passenger rail in Europe and Asia is popular because it is more convenient for certain distances with HSR than road or air.   That is where passenger rail becomes a vital part of a transportation matrix (mainline stations at major airports, for example), not just a bit player (nostalgia LD services).

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 4, 2014 12:11 PM

This has always been my stance...but I did get new glasses about a month or two ago.  

The new riders we have learned not to be encumbered by car payments and expenses but apply available funds as needed at the moment.  And they do find domeciles with available mass or public transportation includeing bus, light rail, rail commuter, and inter city as needed.  Some have social concerns but I think most have financial concerns and applying what they have when and where needed.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, April 4, 2014 12:37 PM

henry6
The new riders we have learned not to be encumbered by car payments and expenses but apply available funds as needed at the moment.  And they do find domeciles with available mass or public transportation includeing bus, light rail, rail commuter, and inter city as needed.  Some have social concerns but I think most have financial concerns and applying what they have when and where needed.

All true for commuter rail and transit.  In places that have long had good commuter rail, those "bedroom" communities are preferred.  And  so many younger folks want to live in the cities, not in the 'burbs.  There is a new venture called MetroMile, a car insurance designed and marketed to young urban professionals who have cars but use public transit.  It uses a pay by the mile scheme.

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 4, 2014 4:50 PM

And this is true of inter city rail travel, too. I did not say Long Distancek, I said inter city. That's been the success of the Downeaster and so many other new services...and seems to be the trend in Europe, too. Only in Europe it is easy to ride trains to where you want to go because there is one.  Here...nope.  But we are learning.  Everytime we've used Amtrak in and out of NYC on our Ridewithmehenry trips, the patronage has been young adults and not weeping nostalgic old farts like us.  Even the longer commuter runs like to Greenport and Montauk, LI; to Danbury, Waterbury and New Haven Ct. and NJT and MNRR two hour jaunts out of the city attract younger riders.  Check weekends around NYC and its all teens through 30's!

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by John WR on Friday, April 4, 2014 8:12 PM

henry6
But, if we have learned anything, we must not just throw away the jet plane and automobiles in trade for trains but build a system of transportation and not just the offering of different modes.

One thing that strikes me, Henry, is the haphazardness of connections if not even the lack of connections.   Many years ago I lived in Toronto.   There subway stations and bus routes are carefully designed for easy changes and GO (commuter) trains are also designed to connect with local buses.   Here in New Jersey NJT pays no attention to such things.   For example, the Newark Light Rail ends at Grove Street two blocks from Bloomfield Avenue and 3 bus routes, Nos. 11, 28 and 72, run up Bloomfield Avenue but there is  a separation of 2 blocks.   Move down to Trenton and you see the same thing with the Riverline.   The 603 bus runs along broad street more than 2 blocks from Hamilton Station but it never gets there.   To make the change you have to go to State and Broad Streets and then get a Capitol Connection bus back to the station at Trenton Transit Center.   I could give other examples.     

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 4, 2014 8:23 PM

YOu are right., John....but you can only, and I can only, speak for NJT.  There is no coordination between trains on any and all rail lines with light rail or bus.  And up to now, so far, little in the offices and between officers, offices, levels, customer service, and operations.  Even the NJT general offices are miles from any public transportation...what does that tell you!

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 5, 2014 9:36 AM

The thing that drives inner city rail is density.  As a city grows, center city traffic and center city parking become painful, clumsy, and expensive.  Buses help with the parking problem but they still have to deal with the traffic.

Enter the train...  Dedicated ROW means they are fast and always on time.  Here in Charlotte, and I imagine many other cities, you can get off the light rail under a roof at the Arena station, step into the adjacent building, and walk to most of the busiest and tallest buildings via the Overstreet Mall, without ever going outside in the weather.  There are 2 other stops that have easy access to the Overstreet Mall.  Several of the center city stations have really cheap bicycle rentals.

I NEVER drive to city center anymore.

Dave

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, April 5, 2014 9:54 AM

Dave:   Where is the present and future Amtrak stations in relation to your map ?

 

An item noted is that Sounder rail )( one line ) is carrying almost as many passengers as the line of this thread.

 

Many pundits think the success of LA rail is the close coordination of bus and parking as opposed to the complete lack of same of some systems al la NJT ?  

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:46 AM

It is a couple of blocks above the top of the posted map, but it has hit a snag in the funding.  A lot of the preparation work has been done.  Norfolk Southern has moved their intermodal yard to the airport, and some tracks have been moved, but it is currently stalled.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/03/22/4785948/how-charlottes-grand-central-got.html#.U0AyNcJOXmI 

"Raleigh, where the city’s Union Station is getting a $73 million upgrade financed partially with federal stimulus dollars once earmarked for rail improvements near uptown Charlotte."

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2014/03/22/4785948/how-charlottes-grand-central-got.html#storylink=cpy

 

Dave

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:44 AM

blue streak 1
An item noted is that Sounder rail )( one line ) is carrying almost as many passengers as the line of this thread.

Sounder actually has two lines, one north and one south of Seattle.

Interesting to note the ridership, Seattle is really congested. The lack of weekend service hampers some, and the mudslides are an annoyance. But, overall, it seems successful.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Sunday, April 6, 2014 1:05 PM

NorthWest

Sounder actually has two lines, one north and one south of Seattle.

Interesting to note the ridership, Seattle is really congested. The lack of weekend service hampers some, and the mudslides are an annoyance. But, overall, it seems successful.

Northwest:
Is there any site that now breaks out north line vs south line ?
We know north line is increasing faster than south line but at one time north line was only 10 - 15% of south line..
The Feb. 2014 was up 11.2% vs 2013 to about 12.5K passengers total but the Seahawks win celebration had about 20K passengers that sent Feb. figures up.
 
Do you know the consists of the various trains ?
 k
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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, April 6, 2014 1:14 PM

Seattle's King Street Station is the meeting point of the lines. The north line is Everett-Seattle and the south Lakewood-Seattle. The trains run with one locomotive (MP36-3C or F59PHI) and three cars (Bombardier Bilevels).

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