Houston's north line has started with more passengers than predicted. Appears projected ridership was based on bus rider ships ? If so says a lot of the desirability of light rail over bus.
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/passenger/rapid-transit-light-rail/first-month-ridership-surpasses-projections-on-houston-metros-north-line.html?channel=281
"If you build it, they will come..."
With the inauguration of the North Line were bus routes altered so as to become feeders?
When Traxx was inaugurated, as a single line, in Salt Lake county, several bus lines that had formerly gone into downtown Salt Lake City became feeders, which, of course, meant that riders who had formerly taken buses all the way into downtown Salt Lake City then rode buses to transfer points and then rode Traxx in. I do not remember the ridership numbers, but they quickly exceeded the estimates.
there are now three Traxx lines: Draper to Salt Lake Central, West Valley City to the airport, and South Jordan to the University.
Johnny
Overheard a conversation between a voter and a congressional aide that went this way.
VOTER:
1. This snow we had in Atlanta proved that automobiles are not the complete answer for transportation.
2 Only Marta trains were able to operate.
3. Atlanta needs more Marta rail, light rail, & commuter rail.
AIDE;
4. The problem is not enough persons will ride the rails bus is better
5. Bus is not considered a preferred option because most people consider them uncomfortable.
6. But still not enough people will ride rail
VOTER
7. Suggest you check some cities. Look at Charlotte that is a southern city..
AIDE:
8. I don't believe that
IMHO maybe there needs to be a much bigger campaign of the attraction of rail to our congressional reps. .
Where is the aide from? It sounds as though he needs some aid.
He does not believe that Charlotte is a southern city? Or, what does he not believe?
Sixty-one years ago, I spent two months in Baton Rouge. On my way home, I got off the train in Charlotte--and thought to myself as I heard the stationmaster (whom I had heard many, many times before) "that is one of the broadest Southern accents I ever heard;" my ear had become attuned to the Baton Rouge accent.
Deggesty Sixty-one years ago, I spent two months in Baton Rouge. On my way home, I got off the train in Charlotte--and thought to myself as I heard the stationmaster (whom I had heard many, many times before) "that is one of the broadest Southern accents I ever heard;" my ear had become attuned to the Baton Rouge accent.
Sixty years ago, in eighth grade in New Orleans, we had a student that transferred from Baton Rouge. He was kidded mercilessly about his southern accent. I guess it's all relative.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Deggesty Where is the aide from? It sounds as though he needs some aid. He does not believe that Charlotte is a southern city? Or, what does he not believe?
DEG; being on the edge of the conversation some other rail items were argued but I moved on.
Aide was from a Georgia Republican congress man but I'll not detail further.
My impression was he and the congressman did not believe that Charlotte was having a large increase in transit riding especially CLT's light rail.
blue streak 1 Overheard a conversation between a voter and a congressional aide that went this way. VOTER: 1. This snow we had in Atlanta proved that automobiles are not the complete answer for transportation. 2 Only Marta trains were able to operate. 3. Atlanta needs more Marta rail, light rail, & commuter rail. AIDE; 4. The problem is not enough persons will ride the rails bus is better VOTER: 5. Bus is not considered a preferred option because most people consider them uncomfortable. AIDE; 6. But still not enough people will ride rail VOTER 7. Suggest you check some cities. Look at Charlotte that is a southern city.. AIDE: 8. I don't believe that IMHO maybe there needs to be a much bigger campaign of the attraction of rail to our congressional reps. .
Chuck, here's the problem. This is a congressional aide who probably knows nothing but politics. His boss, the congressman, probably knows nothing but politics. This isn't just a Republican thing, it's a Democratic thing as well. Like hires like and the system perpetuates itself.
I could go on and on, but I HATE politics. I pay attention to what's going on because it's my responsibility as a citizen to do so. What annoys and infuriates me about the players on both sides is they give me the impression that for them it's all about the game, who wins, who's on top. High school on the grand scale. Nothing else matters.
The hell with it, I've said enough.
Firelock76 Chuck, here's the problem. This is a congressional aide who probably knows nothing but politics. His boss, the congressman, probably knows nothing but politics. This isn't just a Republican thing, it's a Democratic thing as well. Like hires like and the system perpetuates itself.
Firelock if you were a congressman would you hire at least a few people who disagreed with your politics? That way you could be more sure of not having only of yes (wo)men working for you ?
It is not really a political problem. It is a perception problem with the general public. I, too, was a doubter. When Charlotte announced that a light rail line was going to be built from a place near my home to city center, using vehicles that hold hundreds of people, running every 15 minutes, I thought it was a pipe dream. I looked at the buses that ran the same route every half hour with 8 or 10 passengers. They appeared to be people who can't afford a car. I have never ridden a bus in Charlotte. I have two cars. I always drove to city center.
Then the light rail line opened. From day one it has exceeded to passenger estimates. It has free parking at many of the stations. Condos and large rental developments are springing up like mushrooms around the stations along the line, and I never drive to city center anymore.
I admit I was wrong, and am now a rail believer. I wish there was a way to accelerate the long term transit plans.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
blue streak 1 Firelock76 Chuck, here's the problem. This is a congressional aide who probably knows nothing but politics. His boss, the congressman, probably knows nothing but politics. This isn't just a Republican thing, it's a Democratic thing as well. Like hires like and the system perpetuates itself. Firelock if you were a congressman would you hire at least a few people who disagreed with your politics? That way you could be more sure of not having only of yes (wo)men working for you ?
I hope I'd have the sense to hire people with a variety of opinions. As General Patton once said...
"If everybody's thinking alike, no-one is thinking!"
Then again, I've exactly two chances of winding up in Congress, slim and none.
James Sanchez
jsanchez It is a real shame Atlanta and the state of Georgia as a whole have done very little to improve passenger rail in their state. . I think most folks in the Atlanta metro area do not realize how b withad they have it and that there needs to be commuter rail, light rail, and an expansion of MARTA heavy rail., they really need to get their act together and do something before the whole state becomes one big parking lot!!!
It is a real shame Atlanta and the state of Georgia as a whole have done very little to improve passenger rail in their state. . I think most folks in the Atlanta metro area do not realize how b withad they have it and that there needs to be commuter rail, light rail, and an expansion of MARTA heavy rail., they really need to get their act together and do something before the whole state becomes one big parking lot!!!
Firelock76 "If you build it, they will come..."
Maybe!
Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) has invested more than $5.4 billion in the light rail system. DART serves 11 communities, with Dallas being the largest. The service area has a population of 2.3 million, of which approximately 78 per cent or 1.8 million are 16 or over. Presumably this population group can make the decision to use public transit as opposed to an alternative.
In 2012 an average of 2.47 per cent of the service population used the light rail system on weekdays, which is the heaviest use periods. An average of 6.25 per cent of the service population used at least one of DART's services, e.g. light rail, bus, van pool, etc.
The system average subsidy per passenger was approximately $3.35 per passenger trip. The subsidy was approximately $5.25 for bus riders; $3.80 for light rail users, $5.90 for commuter rail riders, $.23 for van pool users, and $.27 for HOV users.
Vehicles using the HOV lanes must have at least two passengers, with the exception of motorcycles, unless the user wants to pay a steep fine. The HOV lanes are only open during weekdays. The average number of persons, not vehicles, using the HOV option during 2012 was approximately 139,000 compared to an average of 48,000 persons, not passengers, who used the light rail system during the same period.
I don't know, I was in Denton last year for a few days and the light rail seemed to be pretty popular. Cool lookin' trains too!
But I don't live there, so what do I know?
Firelock76 I don't know, I was in Denton last year for a few days and the light rail seemed to be pretty popular. Cool lookin' trains too! But I don't live there, so what do I know?
DART is an engine of growth in Dallas and we have office developments springing up all around it. Line to DFW Airport will open to Terminal A later this year which will be nice and hopefully it should eliminate some of the shuttle service congestion (and related pollution) DFW airport has at curbside. The nice thing about DART is you can buy one pass that is accepted on the DART trains, Trinity Railway Express (commuter trains) and the bus line systems of Dallas and Fort Worth. So for the purchase of one ticket I can take a light rail from Plano to Dallas Union Station, transfer to Commuter rail to Ft. Worth, then transfer to the Ft. Worth city bus system right at Ft Worth Train station...............walla, I am at the Ft Worth stockyards tourist mecca saving on fuel but at the expense of a little more time. Still I'll take the rail option.
Sam1 Vehicles using the HOV lanes must have at least two passengers, with the exception of motorcycles, unless the user wants to pay a steep fine. The HOV lanes are only open during weekdays. The average number of persons, not vehicles, using the HOV option during 2012 was approximately 139,000 compared to an average of 48,000 persons, not passengers, who used the light rail system during the same period.
Faulty comparison as the users of the HOV lane can have a destination of anywhere beyond Dallas and a good portion of them could just be transiting through the city or transiting to a suburb that DART does not serve. However, we know that the riders on DART will disembark somewhere along the DART rail system. Apples and Oranges to compare a HOV lane on a freeway with a rail mass transit system.
CMStPnP Sam1 Vehicles using the HOV lanes must have at least two passengers, with the exception of motorcycles, unless the user wants to pay a steep fine. The HOV lanes are only open during weekdays. The average number of persons, not vehicles, using the HOV option during 2012 was approximately 139,000 compared to an average of 48,000 persons, not passengers, who used the light rail system during the same period. Faulty comparison as the users of the HOV lane can have a destination of anywhere beyond Dallas and a good portion of them could just be transiting through the city or transiting to a suburb that DART does not serve. However, we know that the riders on DART will disembark somewhere along the DART rail system. Apples and Oranges to compare a HOV lane on a freeway with a rail mass transit system.
According to DART, the majority of people using the I-30 HOV lane reside in southeast Dallas, Mesquite, Garland, and Rowlett. Some of the users, of course, come from points further east. They could, if desired, park at the light rail station in Rowlett, and ride the Blue Line to downtown or any intermediate station. Obviously, a significant percentage of them prefer to drive and use the HOV lanes if able. In fact, the HOV lanes have been so popular, that the I-30 HOV lanes have been extended to beyond I-635.
By the same token, some of the riders on the Red Line come from Allen and other northern communities. This is the major reason DART attempted to charge them for parking at Plano or several other parking lots down the line. As it turned out the pay for parking scheme did not work and, therefore, DART has or is removing the parking fees.
Data regarding DART's fiances and operating statistics can be found in its annual reports. They are very detailed. But they require a thorough read and, furthermore an understanding of the statistics, i.e. how they are gathered, processed, and analyzed.
The key point is this: most people in Texas, as well as the United States, with the possible exception of the NEC anchor points, Chicago, and San Francisco, prefer their personal vehicle to public transit. This is even true for communities that have developed significant public transit capabilities.
The HOV/light rail line comparison is valid because it shows that many people, given an option, choose the convenience, comfort, flexibility, and economics of driving as opposed to riding on a public transit vehicle. This is the reason why one of the first steps in DART's mobility enhancement program was the development of the HOV lane along I-30. It was also an enticement to get support for the DART initiatives.
To repeat some of the boring statistics that many people would just like to ignore, the subsidy per HOV vehicle is 27 cents per passenger trip compared to $3.80 passenger trip for the light rail.
I think Sam1 will agree with this: In tthe case of DART the main reason for its "success" is eliminating the need for massive additional parking and highway construction, where the continuing overall economic cost of interest on the construction, plus loss of valuable downtown real-estate, would be more than the operating loss and interest on construction for DART. I think this is the case in Dallas and certainly in Charlotte. And I think it is wise that people now have two good choices, rather than only one with traffic jams.
But I have some doubts about San Antonio and Austin.
Also interesting is 48 thousand for a multi-line light rail system, compared witih over 110 thousand for one line in Jerusalem!
And Sam, that 27 cents per rider for HOV, that is of course, in addition to the additional hidden subsidies that all USA auto users receive and that have been discussed on this Forum before. But it can be argued that most of the light rail riders also receive at least some of that subsidy when they dirve their cars to the parking lots at the light rail stations. With single occupancy, also.
Sam1 The key point is this: most people in Texas, as well as the United States, with the possible exception of the NEC anchor points, Chicago, and San Francisco, prefer their personal vehicle to public transit. This is even true for communities that have developed significant public transit capabilities. The HOV/light rail line comparison is valid because it shows that many people, given an option, choose the convenience, comfort, flexibility, and economics of driving as opposed to riding on a public transit vehicle. This is the reason why one of the first steps in DART's mobility enhancement program was the development of the HOV lane along I-30. It was also an enticement to get support for the DART initiatives.
I would not agree with that conclusion 100% either. They choose their personal vehicle because point to point it is faster in their car using HOV vs the light rail more than likely OR it offers a level of flexibility mass transit does not. If there was heavy construction on the freeway and point to point to the auto was slower. You would see a much higher percentage using light rail BUT some would still chose the slower car because it is more flexible to use OR they had intermediate stops to make. I don't think that means that light rail is bad or we should spend more on auto transportation rather I think it indicates that people choose the mode of travel that is in their own self interest not necessarily is it going to be a car all the time. Additionally some humans make irrational choices, some would prefer to drive their POV long distances when it would be cheaper to fly Economy over the same distance. However, I would say the vast majority choose the mode that is faster and more convienent between point A and point B. Parts of this issue are easily overcome via development standards.
That is cluster high density apartments around light rail stops, cluster entertainment venues around light rail stops, cluster transportation hubs around light rail stops and you start to reverse the favorability of the automobile over light rail transit. Interestingly it seems Dallas is doing this with DART in the reverse...........building the light rail line in some cases to popular entertainment venues and transportation hubs or just creating transportation hubs on it's lines. The challenge is when a major entertainment venue moves or is built to make sure it is near a light rail stop. That's urban planning vs free choice by developers. So I think your going to see that Light Rail is more a success in cities where urban planning takes place vs just letting the city develop as developers see fit.
In NJ light rail has been a success. The extension of the Newark CIty Subway from Newark Penn Station to the former DL&W station at Broad St.; the Hudson-Bergen lines out of NJT's Hoboken Terminal to Tonnele Ave, No. Bergen, to West End Ave. and Bayonne; and the River Line between Trenton and Camden. All proved themselves ahead of predictions!
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JSanchez,
It is interesting that you should cite the RiverLine. When I worked in Trenton I used to ride it a lot. And it is doing will with ridership exceeding estimates so much so that on weekdays it operates every 15 minutes. When I took it most often I rode one stop from Hamilton Avenue to Trenton Station and it was also standing room only. It is an excellent example of public transit as an important public service.
But it wasn't created to fulfill a tansit need. It was created because the Hudson Bergen Lightr Rail was being built and it was politically necessary to dole out some political pork to south Jersey. So maybe some times pork barrel spending isn't all that bad after all.
If you will go back and research the newspapers of the time when it was proposed and designed, you will find that you are correct in it not being designed to fulfill a specific transportation need, which the existing bus route was doing, but specifically to revive the economy of New Jersey's most depressed area economically. Which it has been doing very well.
Dave,
I have to agree that the Riverline has contributed to the economy of South Jersey. I don't know that the economy has really been revived but the Riverline is a positive factor. However, I do believe the factor that really tipped the balance to create it was political log rolling.
John
In other words, we in South Jersey are going to help Hoboken, Jersey City, Bayonne, and Newark, and we insist you now do something for us. I can understand that. Much as rural America benefits from an Amtrak train once a day or three times a week that gets used only ih emergencies to they can help the NEC region. Log rolling can also mean fair play.
I have to agree, Dave, log rolling can mean fair play.
And although the Riverline was expensive I do not have any objection to it as far as it goes.
But I do think it could have been done better. First of all, there is a bus route that parallels the Riverline. I think bus and train service should be coordinated to complement each other but as far as I can see that has never been done. Also, the Riverline is about 35 miles long and the fare is $1.35 for the whole distance. Bus fare is much higher, about $6 if I remember correctly. That is hard to understand. Finally, the Riverline might have continued up North Clinton Avenue and then turned left on East State Street to go to the State Capitol Complex. If it did state workers would have a one seat ride to work and the Riverline would have many more riders. Some have even suggested that the Riverline should have been extended to the West Trenton Railroad Station where it would have connected with SEPTA trains going to Philadelphia. That was not done either.
Of course SEPTA trains do go to Philly, in addition to Amrak trains, from the Trenton station served by the Rver Line, Still, the extensions you mention would be valuable and perhaps will be doone some day.
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