The Kenwood have put up with a few TC&W freights for quite a while and always complain. There are other parts of the Twin Cities that contend with BNSF and CP oil trains and whine less than Kenwood does.
The real losers in the Southwest light rail debate is the Minneapolis suburb of Eden Prairie and the people who work there. Eden Prairie did not begin to grow until the mid- 1980's then has grown quite rapidly with most who work there using their cars. There is a need for public mass transit in this suburb. The bus service here is limited and the bus service to the Opus Center which would be one of LRT stops uses Minneapolis city streets over most of its route from downtown Minneapolis.
aricatThese neighborhood people once had to listen to a quite active rail yard until 1980 when the C&NW abandoned the yard
35 years is a long time. Very few residents would have ever heard freight trains running there.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
OK here comes another update. $250M was trimmed from the plans to keep it under the $2B price tag. Now the Metropolitan Council has decided that those changes warrant another round of public hearings. This will delay finalizing the plans until October. The pigs are taking off their wings and resting. They may never fly...
Interestingly, because of highway construction, the commute from the west to the downtowns of Minneapolis or St. Paul have become nightmares this summer. Do we hear a cry to complete the light rail? -- not yet!
The irony is that the Kenwood area of Minneapolis was where the Cedar Lake Yard of the M&StL Railroad was once located; and the LRT route would vitually run along the old M&StL right of way. These neighborhood people once had to listen to a quite active rail yard until 1980 when the C&NW abandoned the yard and downgraded but never abandoned the trackage. Part of the right of way the was used by the Minneapolis Park Board for a bike trail. The TC&W gained use of this right of way when the last part of Milwaukee Road's transcontinental line through south Minneapolis, which the TC&W used until 2001 when it was severed due to construction of Minnesota highway 55 and the building of the Hiawatha line LRT.
Just to bring the forum up to date: the cost of this light rail system has ballooned to $2B. That is well above what governments were guaranteed and the planning group is struggling to trim costs. They have eliminated some stations and simplified some designs and hope that they can reduce the cost by about $341M. The (nearly) final approval meeting is July 1. There are still some financing challenges but most hope that funds can be found. Of course, once the planners reveal which stations are eliminated, that will cause another firestorm of protests and certainly another lawsuit will germinate. Tune in next week.
I'm not sure why resitance to SW LRT is considered to be surprising or amazing. Back when freeways were rammed through cities, a Federal law was passed to ensure park land was not used for these big projects. That law covers this project too. More so, the MPLS park board has one purpose, to run Minneapolis' parks. They are not and should not be expected to sacrifice prime park land and trails just because a large regional project wants to shave 5 or 10 % of it's construction costs.
A citizens' group is now taking the planning process to court. Trying to block progress based on a plan completed before an Environmental Impact Statement was completed. (This is state and federal law but there is some debate about and EIS)
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/28296702/environmental-group-files-lawsuit-to-block-swlrt
The drama continues.
Boyd, there are so many steps in the process that "approved" means many things. In the grand scheme of things, there are many corridors under study and development (Red Rock to Hastings, Rush Line to Forest Lake... all suburbs of Minneapolis, St. Paul, MN) The plan is to keep working on all and develop them as need arises. Costs have skyrocketed to the point that many of the corridors may just get bus service (as they have now). Only a few corridors have obvious right-of-ways. If they don't have land, the costs are so high that rail (light or not) is out of the question. Additionally, the falling gas prices have impacted the commuter rail service to Big Lake, MN (North Star line). That service may falter if ridership doesn't rise. Metro Council (our transportation coordination body) is doing all they can to keep the roads and rail open, but the resistance at every turn is amazing.
The latest reports are that they fear this project dying. Isn't the line going up to the NW metro approved?
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
The tunnel proposal has been tabled and a bridge has returned to the discussion. Turns out Minneapolis and the suburbs realized they could not get any more bribes from the construction money to fix parks, etc. Thus, the Park Board (a separate government body in Minneapolis) agreed to a bridge over the channel separating Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles. The latest news is:
From the Sun Newspapers
This still involved a $250,000 bribe to the Park Board to "engineer trails and connections" but things might start moving again. Stay tuned.
The line follows the TC&W line between Cedar Lake and Lake of the Isles in Minneapolis. And most of the houses in the area are $1M and up so they are looking to build a tunnel (under what, I have no idea) but cant figure a way across the channel between the two lakes. Hundreds of large homes were bulldozed for the freeways here in the Twin Cities, but now we can't put a rail system thru an area that used to be a major rail yard for the Chicago Great Western (now just one BNSF track west and a connection to TC&W.
The whining might sound a bit louder from the "rich" people of Lake Of The Isles area. Is it going through or near the Kenwood area? I hauled some junk away from a $600,000 house in that neighborhood 12+ years ago. a few churches could have fit in that house.
Some people are just spooked by change. It is not just rail.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
New challenges to the routing of the SW Light Rail have cropped up. Turns out the bribes that the transit authority were making to the cities were not funded by the federal money. Now the city of Minneapolis and suburbs are throwing up more objections to the line (they will be able to hear the trains inspite of the roar of the nearby freeways). The new state legislature is not really in favor of transit. Maybe the pigs can start strapping on their wings again.
Stix, that is a great idea. For those not in the Twin Cities, present light rail has two lines: Blue from Hooters at the Mall of America, thru the MSP airport to Dream Girls (Strip joint downtown Minneapolis). The second (green) line runs from Dream Girls directly east to Union Station in downtown St. Paul. The second line runs down University Avenue which used to be the commercial strip of St. Paul. It had Wards, car dealers, etc. There is still a Sears and Target on University Avenue but all other big retail is gone.
The suggested line from St. Paul back to Hooters would be down West 7th Street,--still a major street with restaurants and shopping centers along nearly a straight line from downtown St. Paul to the MSP airport. Downtown St. Paul is a wasteland with the last retail store (Macy's) closing last year. St. Paul has lost much space to state office buildings (it is the capital) and museums, and has been unable to attract big office buildings. The suggested line from St. Paul to the airport would be a boon for the downtown and would not have too many detractors since it goes down a commercial avenue. One problem with downtown St. Paul is that it is land locked between the state Capitol to the north and the Mississippi River to the south. It has nowhere to go. The third line would be great for folks transferring from Amtrak to air travel. It would also be great for folks who live in St. Paul to go either way.
I'd like to see them just mothball the SW line for now, and move up some of the other lines. There's talk now of building the West 7th St. line, connecting downtown St.Paul to the airport/Mall of America. That would 'complete the triangle' between the airport and the two downtowns.
BaltACD Phoebe Vet NIMBYs file law suits, fight the results of required impact studies, and throw as many other obstacles as possible in the way of projects. They often slow it down by years. Then, when it finally gets built over their objections, they scream about the cost overruns caused by the delays. And after it gets built and in use for a period of time - they can't imaging living without it.
Phoebe Vet NIMBYs file law suits, fight the results of required impact studies, and throw as many other obstacles as possible in the way of projects. They often slow it down by years. Then, when it finally gets built over their objections, they scream about the cost overruns caused by the delays.
NIMBYs file law suits, fight the results of required impact studies, and throw as many other obstacles as possible in the way of projects. They often slow it down by years. Then, when it finally gets built over their objections, they scream about the cost overruns caused by the delays.
And after it gets built and in use for a period of time - they can't imaging living without it.
Oh ain't that the truth!
We've had the same problems here in LA for decades building light rail and subways, but seeing how where ever the trains go - development, higher property values and money money money soon follow, alot of folks are now actively pursuing light rail for their neighborhoods.
But there have been a few exceptions, the Expo line extension to Santa Monica was originally supposed to follow the old Pacific Electric route thru a now tony neighborhood called Cheviot Hills, but they hemmed and hawed and raised such a fuss that the line will now probably go south of the area. And the entire CITY of Beverly Hills has been actively fighting the Red Line subway extension even going UNDER their city. They have put up such a stink about any station being built inside the city boundaries that any stations will now probably be built just outside the city limits in West Hollywood and West LA. To which I say good! Stupid shortsighted BH city council , and its NOT because of the reasons you'd normally expect, because their arguments simply do not hold any water under examination, but the probable cause that NO ONE in either community will admit yet everyone else seams to see it clear as day, is of economic discrimination, namely keep all them dagnabited poor people out of our fair city. Which is INSANELY STUPID because what the heck is stopping them "po'folk" from simply DRIVING there now? Nothing....so screw BH, I hope West LA and West Hollywood get all the benefits from the development around the new stations and BH gets a big fat goose egg.
Have fun with your trains
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Argument is based on sparks from catenary catching ethanol tank cars on fire? No chance, considering the plenty of other places that light rail is close to railroad ROWs, and the fact that tank cars are commonly used on the NEC!
But of course the NIMBY's are back with a law suit:
http://www.kare11.com/story/news/local/2014/09/08/lawsuit-aims-to-derail-southwest-light-rail/15309379/
Being a representative government has its disadvantages. It is not the "majority of the population" that decides on legislation. It is our representatives and they do their best to let the public voice their questions about something like this. And we call them NIMBY's because only the neighbors show up to protest. Was there a protest from the citizens of St. Paul.. No, they are benefiting from the Green line.
But the representatives listen and make decisions for us. If a few vocal detractors can drive legislative decisions, we would get no where. We have to let the system work and it does. In this case, the Metro Council found money for each of the cities along the way to bribe them into liking the line. There are still those who don't like it and perhaps there will be law suits and such. But the future is not to build more roads. Cars cannot support the transportation we need for metropolitan areas. We are building systems for safe, efficient, long distant, and permanently located corridors. I don't like that this line is going thru some parks, but that route is far superior to tearing up houses and building more freeway.
I watched this happen in Brookfield, WI about 20-30 years ago. Wisconsin and Southern was trying to reactivate the Brookfield, WI to Waukesha remnant of the former Milwaukee and Mississippi line that runs to Prairie Du Chien. Milwaukee Road ceased operations on it.....approx 1985, it layed dormant for 15 years and Wisconsin rail banked it. Meanwhile the suburbanites built subdivisions right up to the 150-200 ft right of way which is heavily wooded up to the track bed. As soon as Wisconsin and Southern made an application to reactivate the line.........the lawyers came out of the woodwork.
W&S had to back down as it could not afford the legal challenges. Not sure if the line was kept in the WisDOT rail bank but the rails and steel bridges were still in place the last I checked. If there is ever Milwaukee to Waukesha passenger rail service this line cuts about 7-8 miles off the other existing route via Duplainville, WI. So I am hopeful that it is still rail banked for the future at least when the lawyers can be overcome with a "what is best for the larger community" argument.
I can see some of the landowners opinion that they were sold lots and the RE agent downplayed the rail line as waiting to be torn up. OTOH, the landowners failed to do their due dilligence and the easement was clearly marked on all maps at the time they bought their homes.
It would be really sad if this cutoff to the CN line through Waukesha had to be torn up because of a very few property owners. Just the waste in diesel fuel alone to use the more dog legged Duplainville route to Waukesha makes me cringe.
Maybe you want some line built, but it really is up to the majority of residents of the area served. You can make a feeble attempt to trivialize their opposition, but that doesn't change things just because their values are different from yours. But when all else fails, call them NIMBYs.
Minneapolis City Council approved the plan on nearly the last day they could. This is the final city approval of the route and now the plan goes to the feds. My councilwoman objected because of the affect the rail line might have on our lakes and parks. The area they are most concerned is an old rail yard that is now a lightly used bike and hiking trail. Seems they prefer the traffic jam of interstate 394 built right on top of this park is far superior to actual transportation that the light rail would provide.
One wonders if the deadlines for approval should just be 2 weeks since they are approved at the last minute anyway and very few substantial changes are made in the months and years of arguing where the shrubs should be planted.
I was wrong to predict that this line would never be approved. Now how many more roadblocks will be thrown up? There is hope!
I thought it was interesting that one of the issues against the line was that it would run trains next to a grade school, and some folks feared kids would get run over all the time. I went to school at a grade school (Central Elementary in Richfield MN) next to a rail line and we managed to get along without any fatalities. Both high schools in town, Richfield High and Holy Angels Academy, were/are next to the railroad too...in fact at Richfield High, the rail line runs thru the campus, between the main school buildings and the football and baseball fields.
The whole situation sounds remarkably similar to what occurred when street railways began developing in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Everybody wanted a street railway route to serve their neighborhood but on the next street over. In Chicago around 1900 or so, the Ashland Avenue route was forced one block over onto Paulina St from about 12th St to Chicago Avenue because of the outcries of the merchants and residents on Ashland (it was a rather trendy neighborhood at the time).
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