i HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN, WHY CAN'T PARTS OF THE OLD TRANSIT TRACKS BE RE-USED FOR THE NEW SYSTEMS. i GREW UP IN DETROIT IN THE FORTY'S AND FIFTY'S AND WATCHED RAIL BEING REPLACED SEVEN YEARS BEFORE THE STREETCAR SYSTEM WAS ABANDONED AND THE TRACKS COVERED UP WITH ASPHALT. WHY CAN'T WE USE A SURVEY WITH GROUND PENETRATING RADAR TO CATALOG EXISTING RAIL STRUCTURES AND INCORPORATE THE USEABLE PARTS INTO ANY NEW PLANNED SYSTEM. THIS COULD PROVE TO BE CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER THAN TEARING UP THE STREET AND REPLACING THE WHOLE SYSTEM, WHETHER NEEDED OR NOT.
My experience in the Chicago area has been that while the rails were only paved over in some places, they were completely removed in a lot of other places. As time has gone by, many major thoroughfares that hosted streetcar routes have been rebuilt down to the subbase, not merely resurfaced, and the rails have been removed in the process.
Your point is well taken but many things change over time. First, in some instances market studies and projections do not show enough use projected to make that line to be productive or useful. Second, there does seem to be a mental block to yesterday when it comes to rails...once they are abandoned, they no longer exist and, even to some, never existed. Property lines change, physical characteristics change, and so the substructure may not fit new construction. Lots of reasons, all or none may fit any given situation. But places like Buffalo, NY and Scranton, PA and Los Angeles, CA when planners began drawing lines on maps for projected needs of rail rapid transit, they often were right along the same routes that were torn up in the 50's!
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One of the problems with using rails that have been paved over can be seen in the operation of the McKinney Avenue trolley. Where it uses the old tracks, the cars run down the middle of the avenue. That's how the original tracks were laid, which was before the mass auto age.
When passengers get on or off the trolley cars, they must cross a lane of traffic to reach the car or sidewalk. They are at risk of being hit by motorists who don't stop to allow the trolleys to load or unload passengers. And several people have been hit, although I don't recall that anyone was killed. I had several close shaves while getting on or off a car.
As a result of the risk, when a McKinney Avenue trolley stops to pick-up or discharge passengers, the motorman gets off the car and stands in the traffic lane to make sure that motorists stop. This is a particularly cumbersome requirement for Matilda, which is the two person car that came from Australia. The motorman has to stop the car, walk back to the door, open it, and then stand in the street until the passengers get on or off.
The extensions for the McKinney Avenue trolley are a single curbside track. There is a message here!
Another aspect is that rails do wear and have to be replaced. One of the factors leading to abandonment of many streetcar systems was deferred maintenance through the depression and the heavy WW2 use. The cars and trackage became worn out and the systems needed significant capital expenditure to catch up. Buses appeared to be a cheaper, flexible, modern alternative and became (rightly or wrongly) the favored option.
The rails may still be buried under the asphalt but that does not mean they are immediately usable. The ties underneath likely all need renewing by now, and even the rail itself may be too worn to have much life remaining. Then there is the cost of rebuilding the electrical supply (trolley wire, poles, substations, etc.). I will defer to others who may know for certain; my suspicion is that might cost at least a much as any track construction.
John
Texas law is unknown but:
If the old tracks were not considered abandoned or the ROW is in perpetuty then maybe any utility lines underneath would be considered as second arrivals ? In that case those utilities would be all considered to be responsible for maintaining those lines.
Contrast that to Atlanta where it seems the old lines were consider3ed abandoned and there the street car line had to protect all lines? There was on some blocks as many as 13 different utilities that had to be protected. That includes both settlement, crushing, and electrical interferrence.
The only problem may be in the future as things happen under the streetcar the utilities may have to close the streetcar line. Where as in Atlanta the lines will be encased with manhole on each side to provide access.
Maybe Dallas will be pay me now or pay me much more later. Note; The class 1 RR certainly protect for this.
Edit: Atlanta note that is 13 companies not crossings. many utilities such as steam, telephone, electric, water, sewer, gas, etc had multiple crossings.
Cleveland OH Streetcar tracks occasionally pop up outta the asphalt.....Same with Palmyra NY on the NYC Interurban...Both areas have used extensive salt over the years that have dissolved the track. The track in Palmyra when they redid the road was 3 feet below the surface in places...In Cleveland the tracks are buried under 1-2 feet of asphalt....Now at least in Cleveland the Utlities and the Streetcars where run by the same people. The problem with today's "Light Rail" is that they are anything but....at 47 tons....is way too much passenger to car weight ratio
According to the thoughts of the LION:
Old infrastructure is not as useful as you would think that it is.
Even if the ROW were to be resurrected, much of it would have to be replaced.
New road vehicles are taller than those of yore, thus cantinary would have to be higher to clear modern trucks and double decker buses.
Old routes might not go where new populations live: Peoeple do not like to live in old housing stock, but want to live elsewhere, places the rails did not go.
Equipment is heavier, and to make any time in today's traffic would need to be on a dedicated row rather than on an existing roadway. That dedicated ROW can be on a city street for example, but would eliminate the parking lane to be the transit lane, and trams would get the green light to proceed to the next station while cross traffic is blocked by the signals.Handicapped access is another issue, that not only requires curbside running, but also platforms to acces the cars.
FINALLY and MOST IMPORTANTLY: NIMBYS, Politically connected NIMBYS, combined with those who want to pay no additional taxes, those who fear that the wrong people might come to their neighborhoods, and just common politics will hamstring many good ideas.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion Old routes might not go where new populations live: Peoeple do not like to live in old housing stock, but want to live elsewhere, places the rails did not go. Equipment is heavier, and to make any time in today's traffic would need to be on a dedicated row rather than on an existing roadway. That dedicated ROW can be on a city street for example, but would eliminate the parking lane to be the transit lane, and trams would get the green light to proceed to the next station while cross traffic is blocked by the signals.Handicapped access is another issue, that not only requires curbside running, but also platforms to acces the cars.
Lion,
Many of your ideas are spot on, but I would point out a few issues.
First, the whole resurgence of streetcars is in part a result of the fact that the population is re-urbanizing. People actually do want to live in "old housing stock", in downtown areas that were abandoned along with the streetcars in the 60's.
Second, streetcars are not busses, they don't need to let their passengers out on the curb while cars zoom by in the center lanes. It actually works better for pedestrians to have central stations where they only have to cross one lane of traffic to get to any side of the street, or to get to any train. This, along with trees and street side parking has the effect of slowing automobile traffic down, making drivers more aware, and making it safer for everyone. Im not saying you can't do it the other way, just saying that trains in the median actually work quite well.
IIMHO the ideal set up of street cars or light rail is the double track down the center of the street. As soon as street car approaches any cross street traffic light is tripped to give priority to the car. Then place boarding platform just past a cross street with other direction platform staggered before the cross street. That way platforms are never used for 2 direction travel If street side platforms needed for any reason the staggered platforms are still the best way. Of course the rare need to travel opposite direction makes many problems for sidewalk platforms.
Note: as soon as car leaves boarding platform the trip system is activated for the next cross street.
In Melbourne, Australia, where I lived for more than five years, the trams run down the midde of the street in most locations.
In the downtown area passenger platforms separate the tram line from the roadway. Passengers getting on or off the trams can do so from the platforms. However, they still have to cross a traffic lane between the platform and the curb. Each year, whilst I lived in Melbourne, at least a few tram passengers were hit by motorists who did not see them whilst they were crossing the traffic lane between the platform and the curb.
ndbprrNot many people go downtown any more.
Setting anecdotal evidence aside, this statement is not true. Every region in the country is experiencing urban growth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_in_the_United_States
Urban planners have been designing safe multi-modal boulevards for over a hundred years. Anyone that wants to learn about traffic calming and how to safely mix transport modes could start with this:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Boulevard-Book-Evolution-Boulevards/dp/0262600587
sorry, I know, its a book. I like books.
Did they wake for the green or walk light before crossing to the curb?
In Jerusalem there are bus-only lanes in the center of certain blvds with loading platforms as if the bus lanes were streetcar lanes. Most people have patience enough to wait for the walk or green. Those that don't are usually quick, agil, and able to judge traffic to insure a safe crossing. Why should Melbourn be different?
The light rail is usually on private right of way (PRW) or in the pedestrianized street, Jaffa Road. And the magnetic track brakes are used when necessary to prevent accidents. But there is one stretch that is like what you describe in Melbourn. The same mix of people (all ethnic groups) use both services and apparently cross streets safely.
daveklepper Did they wake for the green or walk light before crossing to the curb? In Jerusalem there are bus-only lanes in the center of certain blvds with loading platforms as if the bus lanes were streetcar lanes. Most people have patience enough to wait for the walk or green. Those that don't are usually quick, agil, and able to judge traffic to insure a safe crossing. Why should Melbourn be different? The light rail is usually on private right of way (PRW) or in the pedestrianized street, Jaffa Road. And the magnetic track brakes are used when necessary to prevent accidents. But there is one stretch that is like what you describe in Melbourn. The same mix of people (all ethnic groups) use both services and apparently cross streets safely.
People transitioning to or from the passenger platforms in Melbourne ought to have waited for the crosswalk light. People ought not to talk on a cell phone whilst driving. Motorists should never try to beat the light. And they should never hit a pedestrian. Unfortunately, humans don't always do what they ought to do.
One of the ways to overcome human foibles is to design systems that make it more difficult for people to hurt themselves or others. Running streetcar tracks down the middle of a busy thoroughfare is not the way to do that.
The folks responsible for the extension of the McKinney Avenue Trolley concluded that running the tracks in the curb lanes is a better option. Also, the designers of the new trolley line from the Dallas Convention Center to Oak Cliff have opted for curb lane tracks. I am giving them a tick mark for knowing what they are doing.
There may be cases where curb operation is appropriate, Sam. But curb operation almost always means shared lanes with autos. Even if there isn't parking allowed, still taxis and cars do have to pick up and discharge. This can slow the service considerably. Not important if it is only a downtown circulator streetcar, but certainly if it is a suburb to work light rail or streetcar line.
One thought is that Melbourn has failed to provide traffic lights at a number of cross streets where transit stops are located, relying on stop signs on the cross streets and even locating stops where no cross streets exist. This is a real safety problem and should be avoided at all costs. As far as I can see, there are zero such cases in Jerusalem in the areas where the light rail or busways are in the middle of the street.. In some cases the platforms are so long they run from one cross street to another, with traffic lights at both ends. Several routes use the main busway in the center of Hebron Road south of the city, all use articulated buses during rush hours, and two or three may be at a stop at the same time, thus the long platforms. On Shuphat Road and on Engineering Corps Highway, some light rail stations have side platforms and some center. All are about 240 feet long to handle one two car five section/car Althom Citidas train. Light rail has enough dispatcher control so that trains are never bunched to the extent that a platform has to handle two going the same way at the same time.
I suspect that as our system expands, some lines will have curbside locations where our planners consider the advantages to outway the disadvanteges for the specific situations. In fact, now, there are locatons where the double-track RofW is adjacent to the street or highway.
If my memory is correct, the original revived museum Kenny Avenue operation did not employ platforms, and passengers boarded from and disembarked to the roadway pavement. Is this still the case? This was typical of most first-phase streetcar lines. Streetcars in New York City and Westchester County had the words "Obey the 8-foot Law." painted on the exit door. This was and may still be a law requiring drivers of other vehicles to halt at least eight feet behind any stopped streetcar opening or with open doors.
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