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TVM's: Yet Another Complaint about NJT

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TVM's: Yet Another Complaint about NJT
Posted by John WR on Thursday, August 22, 2013 5:02 PM

Anyone who rides New Jersey Transit knows that very few suburban stations have ticket clerks any more.   The only one I know of is Princeton Junction.  But all of the stations I have been to have Ticket Vending Machines with NJT calls TVM's.  They are robust machines.  I've never known one to break down although occasionally they do run out of change or tickets.  But not usually.  But there is one problem.  

On a bright day, even when the sun does not shine directly on the screen, the screen is illegible.  It can be absolutely impossible to see the print on it and it is often extremely difficult.  An obvious solution would be to put up light barriers around the sided and over the top the the machines but NJT does not bother to do that.  However, if you are unable to use a machine because it is illegible they are very quick to hit you with a $5 surcharge.

I have to believe many people have been victimized by NJT TVM''s but I have never heard of anyone complain about it.   

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Posted by sandyhookken on Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:44 PM

John, I thought that I was the only one who had trouble seeing the screen on the TVM. The machine at Essex Street on the Pascack Valley line faces due east; the screen is impossible to read in the morning. I've had a stranger voluntarily stand behind me using his newspaper as a sun screen so that I could buy my ticket.

I wrote a letter to NJ Transit Rail Operations two years ago suggesting that they turn the TVM a quarter turn to face north, which would solve the sun problem. Never got any response; the machine still faces east. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, August 23, 2013 7:03 AM

This is apparently not a problem with Ticket Vending Machines only.  Did you ever try to read the face of your cell phone in bright sunlight??

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by aegrotatio on Friday, August 23, 2013 9:02 AM
I encountered these ridiculous screens riding NJT recently.

If the Virginia Railway Express can figure it out, why can't NJT?

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, August 23, 2013 9:55 AM

I've encountered problems at times, too.  Placement of TVM has to be where light does not affect it somehow.  Often a machine can be read but the position of the sun will make it difficult at other times, so just placing it out of the sun has to be done more carefully because of the times of day and year placement of the sun.  Not only does the machine have to be in a covered area but also an additional visor, even adjustable, to help.  Or screens have to be brighter and brightness adjusted automatically according to ambient light.  

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Posted by Bonaventure10 on Friday, August 23, 2013 10:08 AM

Sell tickets at nearest coffee shop or mom and pop store? VRE used to do this...save 20,000 on each new TVM machine

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, August 23, 2013 10:39 AM

Bonaventure10

Sell tickets at nearest coffee shop or mom and pop store? VRE used to do this...save 20,000 on each new TVM machine

That's no longer really viable as often station stops are no where near commercial venues nor are such venues open 24/7 or convenient to a majority of train times.  I am 70 years old and I am impressed with these TVM machine, what can be done, rides and routes purchased at one time instead of at every stop and turn of a day.  The fact that one can use credit or debit cards or cash is well and good.  If any one thing that could be added would be a voice communication with someone if there is a problem or question but not to be an agent.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, August 23, 2013 12:12 PM

ATMs have the same problem.  My bank had an eastward facing ATM that was unusable until about 1300 in the summer and 1400 in winter.   Finally replaced the screen with a newer more expensive one and that seems to help about 75%.

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Posted by John WR on Friday, August 23, 2013 4:11 PM

sandyhookken
I wrote a letter to NJ Transit Rail Operations two years ago suggesting that they turn the TVM a quarter turn to face north, which would solve the sun problem. Never got any response; the machine still faces east. 

Sandy,  

That paragraph says it all.  John

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Posted by John WR on Friday, August 23, 2013 4:14 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
Did you ever try to read the face of your cell phone in bright sunlight??

Mac,  

With my cell phone I can turn around and change it or even walke to a shady locaton.  But I can't do that with a TVM.

John

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Posted by John WR on Friday, August 23, 2013 4:24 PM

henry6
 I am 70 years old and I am impressed with these TVM machine, what can be done, rides and routes purchased at one time instead of at every stop and turn of a day.  The fact that one can use credit or debit cards or cash is well and good.  If any one thing that could be added would be a voice communication with someone if there is a problem or question but not to be an agent.

I'm just a little older than you, Henry.  And I agree with you completely.  TVM's do work well, are reasonably easy to use and always available.  Except for the issue of legibility in bright light.  And that could be easily resolved by simply puting a box like structure around the screen to keep out the excess light.  But NJT just doesn't care enough to do it.  

This seems to be a characteristic of my transit agency.  NJT really does do many things excellently, far better than they were done before NJT existed. But yet they miss important details and seem not to care that they have missed them.  

John

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Posted by John WR on Friday, August 23, 2013 4:38 PM

sandyhookken
wrote a letter to NJ Transit Rail Operations two years ago

Sandy,  

I don't know if you intended this as a suggestion.  I just sent an e-mail to NJT about my experience.  If they answer I'll share the answer with you. 

John

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:49 PM

I have no experience with NJT and their TVM's, however, I have sometimes had difficulty at some ATM's with the sun obliterating the legability of the screen.  I also have trouble with ambient outdoor lighting making my laptop a seeming blank screen.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, August 24, 2013 8:30 PM

This solves the problem with ATM's: do not use them.Smile However, it can be much harder getting around the problem with TVM's  

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, August 26, 2013 6:42 AM

Deggesty

This solves the problem with ATM's: do not use them.Smile However, it can be much harder getting around the problem with TVM's  

Unfortunately, unless your bank branch is located in a supermarket and has long hours, it's pretty rough to get by without using an ATM.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by gardendance on Monday, August 26, 2013 10:17 AM

SEPTA eliminated the problem 100%, they eliminated ticket vending machines.

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, August 26, 2013 10:47 AM

I like and am willing to use TVM's.  I am disappointed by the attempts of train crews having handheld computer terminals to sell and print tickets.  I believe both MNRR and NJT have had some experiments but have only spoken with LIRR trainmen who have quite a disdain for them.  But why?

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Monday, August 26, 2013 1:49 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Deggesty

This solves the problem with ATM's: do not use them.Smile However, it can be much harder getting around the problem with TVM's  

Unfortunately, unless your bank branch is located in a supermarket and has long hours, it's pretty rough to get by without using an ATM.

What is so rough about it.  I have NEVER used an ATM and I don't find it at all inconvenient.  In fact, I find it inconvenient waiting for a co-worker to go to an ATM before we can go to lunch.

Our light rail TVMs have the same problem.  Fortunately, the station where I buy my tickets has two machines, facing in opposite directions, on the platform that have the glare problem on bright days, but there are 4 more in the parking ramp that are never in direct sunlight.  I have found that you can shield the screen from glare with your hand while operating it with the other.

Dave

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Posted by John WR on Monday, August 26, 2013 3:22 PM

henry6
I like and am willing to use

I'm with you here, Henry.  All I'm asking is that NJT provide sufficient shading so I can read the TVM,  I can't see why that is so hard to do.  But TVM's and similar electronic devices are here to stay because the allow electronic technology to replace manual clerical technology.  And manual clerical technology is not coming back.  

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Posted by John WR on Monday, August 26, 2013 3:30 PM

New Jersey Transit has replied to my complaint.  Here is the response:  

Dear John,

Thank you for contacting NJ TRANSIT about your experience using our Ticket Vending Machines (TVM).

I apologize for the glare, which made it difficult for you to see the screen while purchasing your tickets. Unfortunately, the conductors cannot wave the surcharge is the TVM is operational.

However, I have forwarded your feedback to our TVM technicians. This issue will be investigated so the appropriate corrective action can be taken.

Again, thank you for writing and for your support of NJ TRANSIT.


Sincerely,

Christel Thomas 
NJ TRANSIT Customer Service Team 

Of course I'll be looking for the correction next time I ride a train from Upper Montclair.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 26, 2013 4:41 PM

I feature the same mentality personnel install the TVM's that are placing signals and defect detectors on my carrier - some signal locations have cluttered backgrounds that make discerning the indication displayed - from a distance - nearly impossible.  Defect Detectors get installed where a train activating one and have to stop for inspection shuts down the entire railroad.

IT GOES HERE!

Without looking into what the consequences of HERE are.

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Posted by aegrotatio on Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:06 PM
Non-penalty on-board fare collection should be the norm.

I would love to use a local store, but most Port Jervis Line Metro-North stations are in the middle of nowhere.

Palm Pilots in the late 1990s had reflective color screens that worked perfectly in sunlight. Today there is the e-Ink used on Kindle and Nook displays. The technology is cheaper than the color screens they currently use. The technology should be used for all outdoor screens.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:11 AM

Penalty payment on board is good.  Train crews have other things to do than being clerks...it takes time to transact the sale and later do the paperwork and accounting, time taken away from duties and from other passengers.  So it is a fair fare.  Since most stations have TVM's, there are internet purchases, mostly dealing with commuter multi ride ticket purchases (not available aboard trains), etc., it should be rare that a passenger need purchase aboard a train.  But if the machine isn't working, the extra fee should be waived and the railroad pick up the extra fare tab.  The extra charge should also encourage people to by tickets beforehand, be a the station within enough time before departure just like the old days when there were ticket agents.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by sandyhookken on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:41 AM

John,

Congratulations on getting a response from NJ Transit; you did better that I did. Maybe my letter just went to the wrong people.

Please let us know if anything is ever done.

Ken

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:00 PM

henry6
Train crews have other things to do than being clerks.

I'll tell you a secret, Henry, but please don't tell anyone else.  As a senior citizen NJT lets me buy my ticket on the train with no penalty.  But I use the TVM's for the reasons you state.   On my line stations are close together and conductors have their hands full with the doors because some stations have high platforms and some stations have low platforms.  Having a ticket makes things a little easier for train personnel.  

But if you can't read the screen then in reality the machine is not working and you should not have to pay a surcharge to buy your  ticket on the train.  

John

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:09 PM

sandyhookken
Congratulations on getting a response from NJ Transit;

Thank you, Sandy.  But I got a response from a Customer Service Rep.  CSR's are paid to be helpful and they will do everything they can do to help you and they are sympathetic.  But as simple as it would be to add a light barrier I just don't think NJT management is willing to do that to help its customers.  I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it.  

Today I took the train in Bloomfield.  Bloomfield has one of the old DL&W concrete and brick stations.  There is a poured concrete roof where you wait for the train and it is quite deep, deep enough to make the TVM screen legible so this morning I got the tickets without out a problem.   But it was interesting.  This morning I was going to Montclair State University which is outbound (westbound) from Newark and New York.  The only TVM is on the other track and these are side platforms so it is a good hike to go to trak 1, buy your tickets, and then go to track 2.  My companion was critical that there is not a TVM by each track.  I know the reason is that almost no one takes an out bound train from Bloomfield.  Or perhaps I am more easily satisfied.  

John

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:28 PM

In commuter communities, the main station building (with agent) was always on the "inbound" side of the tracks but varied where there was only single track.  But at Denville, a second TVM is needed on the opposite side because of eastbound or inbound customers riding the Boonton-Montclair Line...it would work for both inbound B-M customers and also westbound customers for both lines.  

And, yes, Seniors can buy aboard the train without penalty.  But some of the trainmen don't know that and gave us a hard time out of Port Jervis once.  I like to get my tickets for the day in advance, from the TVM so I can use a card.  And because it takes a little pressure off the trainman/conductor.  Of course, before TVM, we would have to buy aboard the train and it frustrated and bemuddled the train crews when we asked for a Sr. round trip from Hackettstown to Trenton via Newark or to BayHead from Port Jervis.  Back then they'd look at us as if we were crazy, now they just look at the tickets and say, "enjoy the day" and walk away...!

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 7:39 PM

henry6
In commuter communities, the main station building (with agent) was always on the "inbound" side of the tracks

Henry,  

I used to ride the train from Waldwick.  If you look as you go by the Waldwick station is on the outbound track.  When I began riding there was an agent in the station who sold tickets.  Also, at HoHoKus the station is on the outbound track.  However, there is a waiting room on the inbound track also.  I know what you say is generally true and that generally at suburban stations the station is on the inbound track but for some reason the Erie made exceptions at Waldwick and Hohokis.  

Or course this is not the old days.  One advantage of TVM's is that you can put one on each track if the demand warrants it.  I cannot make an argument that demand warrants it at Bloomfield but at Denville I'm sure you are correct and NJT should consider it.  

John

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Posted by aegrotatio on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:41 PM
Virginia Railway Express doesn't even bother on-board. You buy a ticket from the TVM or other place and then must remember to validate it at the TVM in the minutes before your train.

People forget all the time and get instant $150 summonses from some 150-year-old Virginia railroad law about unticketed passengers. Somehow in Virginia it's fully and legally confirmed that an unvalidated PAID ticket makes you an unticketed violator on a moving train.

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:22 PM

Aegrotatio, That sounds even worse than New Jersey Transit's $75 summons for unvalidated tickets on a light rail line.  But with NJT you may not get caught at all.  In Virginia are there ticket inspectors on every train?

When I rode the Newark light rail I only saw ticket inspectors in two places:  Military Park and Newark Penn Station.  And they were in the station; they never came on the train.  It seems to me that if you wanted to get off at any other stop you would be pretty safe in not buying a ticket.  On the River Line, however, ticket inspectors might be at any stop and they would come on the train and check everyone, not just those getting off.  

John

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