It is obvious that depsite high bus ridership in many corriders that exceeds light rail ridership like Clevelands 10 and 6 lines and many of LA routes that upgrading these to light rail is against FTA policy because they do not atract enough potential passengers from there cars from the suburbs. If you read between the lines that means that FTA has a bias in favor or white suburbanites (There are very few black middle class sunbuban areas in america like PG County in DC) over poor transit dependent blacks and hispanics in the city. Furthermore perhaps because of Kalmbachs history of being in Millwalkie of being right in the middle of this issue and still recovering from the memoery of the riots in the 1960s in there city they refuse to discuss it on there forums. Its time we come to grips and share the benifits of rail for everybody. Rail if it is what they say it is can bring any neighboorhood white or black back from the edge of extincion
There is a specific reason race or socioeconomic status is not a TOPIC on this Forum: it is forbidden in general by Kalmbach's policies.
There is a less specific reason: it may become a source of contention, intended or unintended, that detracts from discussions of railroading or railroading technology.
If rail can bring 'any neighborhood, white or black, back from the edge of extinction' there is little reason to bring up what color skin is predominant in a neighborhood, or use 'socioeconomic status' as a codeword for certain racial stereotypes. It is certainly possible to address topics like 'does transit policy favor the middle class over the poor' but there is utterly no reason to speculate on the racial aspects of the middle class or the poor. In a stretch, I think it would be possible to have a discussion about 'how can transit be made more attractive to minority tastes' -- but that is a slippery slope at the bottom of which very little insight, and some very dubious humor, would predominate.
It's speculative, if not downright insulting, to involve Kalmbach in this argument.
Like many other things, rail transportation is embedded in the society and it will reflect the general values of the society. This is good in some ways but not so good in other ways.
However, commuter rail to predominately white suburbs tends to open those suburbs to all people. The most expensive form of transportation is private vehicles. If your suburb is served by a commuter train it often means you can live conveniently with one car rather than two. Also, many jobs have moved to the suburbs and commuter trains can make it possible to reverse commute from the city to suburban job sites. And of course the transportation is open to all who buy a ticket to ride.
As has been pointed out installing rail transportation is always more expensive than just buying a bus and putting on existing roads. But perhaps opening our communities to an increasingly diverse population is a reason for that expense.
You *can* talk about it on trains all you like, if you happen to be riding on a train. You cannot discuss the issue on the FORUM!
That said, in the cities with really good transit systems the trains were built to replace the HORSE, not the automobile. Demographics did shift after WW-II but then, that was when the automobile came into its own.
My father moved to Long Island because of GOOD TRAIN SERVICE. Nice homes and good train service created Long Island, New Jersey and parts of New York and CT.
But look at the housing stock today. House built in the 1920s are at the end of their useful life, they are too old and small for people who think that they can afford better, and so they are inhabited by those who can not do as well for themselves, and the entire neighborhood goes down hill from there.
But there is a rebound that can occur, but this will come from those who can afford to make it happen, not from those who cannot afford to make it happen. Some government programs actually did help these neighborhoods.Best as can be said is sometimes things work out, and some times they do not.
But this is all too complicated for a LION to figure out. Being a LION is much easier. You sleep when you want, and the zookeeper brings you raw wildebeests to eat. What could be better than that!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Odd that some MARC trains deadhead back to Brunswick MD....same with some VRE trains. I have been told that Deadhead trains have no insurnce coverage for passengers
Summary of Key Findings
The Rail Modernization Study finds that more than one-third of agencies’ assets are either in marginal or poor condition, indicating that these assets are near or have already exceeded their expected useful life. Assuming assets are permitted to remain in service beyond their expected useful life for a limited time (a realistic assumption based on current agency practices), there is an estimated SGR backlog of roughly $50 billion (2008 dollars) for the agencies under consideration.
The study also finds that, between 1991 and 2009, although the actual dollar amount of capital funding from Federal sources to the seven agencies increased, their share of Fixed Guideway Modernization funds—to "old rail cities" in particular—actually
declined as new fixed guideway systems, such as busways and HOV lanes, entered the program.
In my opinion who does or doesn't get commuter rail seems to have a lot more to do with political muscle than it has to do with race or socio-economic levels. If the political will is there to get it, it will happen. Maybe not fast enough to suit some people but the wheels of politics are infuriatingly slow at times, it's just a fact of life.
In addition, one of the reasons suburbs aren't often served by light rail is the costs. Meager budgets often don't allow the building of much track.
(P.S. Why do I see this being locked by the end of the week?)
NW
I think dropping the term' "socio" in front of economics may be a start, c'mon, poor is poor.
BroadwayLion My father moved to Long Island because of GOOD TRAIN SERVICE. Nice homes and good train service created Long Island, New Jersey and parts of New York and CT. But look at the housing stock today. House built in the 1920s are at the end of their useful life, they are too old and small for people who think that they can afford better, and so they are inhabited by those who can not do as well for themselves, and the entire neighborhood goes down hill from there.
I think it is not quite that simple, Lion. Certainly, there are places exactly as you describe. And in northern New Jersey there are a lot of such places. But there are also railroad suburbs that were built along our rail lines which have preserved themselves as desirable areas to live and still are. They also have preserved their down town areas. One example is Montclair, New Jersey which is next door to me. This single gown has 7 commuter rail stations. Montclair, originally built along the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad and also along the Erie Railroad, is one of the oldest suburbs in the country. So there is a mixture.
Also, as time goes on places along rail lines tend to improve. The improvement is slow but it is there.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not aware of any "white" neighborhoods in my area. Even the million dollar neighborhoods around here have a mixed population. Our light rail transports a mix of passengers from bankers to single mothers and teenagers. The entire economic spectrum is represented by a racial mix.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Lion's comments about houses from the 1920's being at the end of their useful lives reminded me of something. Several years ago I was looking in a "Homes for Sale" flyer and saw an absolutely gorgeous four-bedroom home from the 20's in great condition going for a give-away price. I wondered why until I looked at the specs. It only had one bathroom.
Bear in mind in the 20's a lot of people were thrilled to have a house with only one bathroom, so many had grown up in homes with no indoor plumbing at all, if you get my drift. Nowadays one bathroom just doesn't get it.
Sure beats an outhouse but no-one sees it that way anymore.
Firelock76 In my opinion who does or doesn't get commuter rail seems to have a lot more to do with political muscle than it has to do with race or socio-economic levels. If the political will is there to get it, it will happen. Maybe not fast enough to suit some people but the wheels of politics are infuriatingly slow at times, it's just a fact of life.
Political will is one thing, but for places like NYC it just doesn't cut it. Federal Doalr appeared and Bismarck, ND made a plan for new bus services wheretofore they had none, and got funding. It is no big deal for a committee of two or three to sit down, fill out federal forms and get a grant.
In NYC, on the other hand, this is impossible. In NYC, 8 million people have ten million ideas on how to spend that money, the forms are then filled out incorrectly, for work not covered in the grant, and submitted two years too late.
You cannot please all of the people even for one moment.
ROAR
NorthWest (P.S. Why do I see this being locked by the end of the week?) NW
Wonder how many more user names the OP will create by then?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannWonder how many more user names the OP will create by then?
Bonaventure10 just joined...
BTW, how did this thread slip past the mods?
Firelock76Several years ago I was looking in a "Homes for Sale" flyer and saw an absolutely gorgeous four-bedroom home from the 20's in great condition going for a give-away price. I wondered why until I looked at the specs. It only had one bathroom.
I like homes from the 20's and 30's, Wayne, but I suspect there is more than the lack of a bathroom. It is not at all uncommon to add a half bath downstairs which, by today's standards, is minimal but adequate.
However, you may well find that house has a working but ancient boiler which will cost a fortune to operated. Realistically you need a new one. I can easily live with radiators but many people around me consider radiators almost the equivalent of an our house.
Then there is wiring. Quite possibly it is knob and tube. You can't get fine insurance for a house with knob and tube wiring. Today building inspectors object to Edison base fuses.
And the plumbing. All or part of it may be iron and need replacing.
The house may well lack insulation also. So with one of these older homes you can get a lot of living space for your money along with some real amenities. But they do have some drawbacks.
BonaventureIt is obvious that depsite high bus ridership in many corriders that exceeds light rail ridership like Clevelands 10 and 6 lines
What Cleveland are you referring to, Ohio?
The FTA policy is to get riders out of cars in order to qualify for light rail funding. Upgrading inner city existing bus service to rail does not qualify. Transit dependent minorities in the city lose out.
Firelock76 Lion's comments about houses from the 1920's being at the end of their useful lives reminded me of something. Several years ago I was looking in a "Homes for Sale" flyer and saw an absolutely gorgeous four-bedroom home from the 20's in great condition going for a give-away price. I wondered why until I looked at the specs. It only had one bathroom. Bear in mind in the 20's a lot of people were thrilled to have a house with only one bathroom, so many had grown up in homes with no indoor plumbing at all, if you get my drift. Nowadays one bathroom just doesn't get it. Sure beats an outhouse but no-one sees it that way anymore.
Johnny
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