Cargo Trams

[narig01]

This is an Australian road train. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Road_Train2.jpg
Think of something like this on rails.
Separately Australians have done crazy things with trucks. Some of their records were initially furled by too much beer (don't ask).
Also this is the wikepedia entry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_train
I'he seen these out in Western Australia. While they were supposed to have a speed limit of 100kmh. The reality was that drivers would go like mad, especially on private roads. One would see a big cloud of dust coming down the road and one would find a side track and pull off the main road a ways and let them go past. Usually at speed the 3rd trailer would be whipping all over the track.
I asked my boss why the company just didn't put in a railway. He said that the mine owners were never sure of how long the mine would be able to economically produce. Just think about some of the locomotives that GE sold down there. Also GE initially developed DPU for an Australian mine operation.
Thx IGN

[carnej1]

narig01

Have you seen a picture of an Australian road train? Triple 15 meter trailer behind one tractor. Now think of this setup on steel rails with steel wheels. The power unit both capable of pulling a small train and pulling a single trailer on rubber tyres on a 5th wheel down a street like a semi truck.
First time I saw a road train my thought was why not on steel tracks. Of course if you want excitement watch one being driven in Western Austrailia down a dirt track at 130 or 140 kmh(or faster) by a typical aussie driver. First time I saw one I thought it was a double cause I couldn't see the third wagon through the dust.

Thx IGN

Whay you are describing is kind of like this:

http://www.silvertipdesign.com/#BladeRunner

Note that the model is the "bus" version, they also propose using the dual mode tractor to pull roadrailer type trailers..

[narig01]

Have you seen a picture of an Australian road train? Triple 15 meter trailer behind one tractor. Now think of this setup on steel rails with steel wheels. The power unit both capable of pulling a small train and pulling a single trailer on rubber tyres on a 5th wheel down a street like a semi truck.
First time I saw a road train my thought was why not on steel tracks. Of course if you want excitement watch one being driven in Western Austrailia down a dirt track at 130 or 140 kmh(or faster) by a typical aussie driver. First time I saw one I thought it was a double cause I couldn't see the third wagon through the dust.

Thx IGN

[carnej1]

daveklepper

Rubber-tired vehicles moving freight cars work fine ----- with track in pavement.

Indeed, PRR was a pioneer in using such contraptions for moving freight cars on street trackage:

http://prr.railfan.net/RubberTiredSwitchers.html

 

[daveklepper]

Rubber-tired vehicles moving freight cars work fine ----- with track in pavement.

[carnej1]

Although non hi-rail equipped rubber tired vehicles are used to switch railcars, I very much doubt such a system would work for hauling cars any distance as the rubber tired tractor would have a tough time staying on the rails without the rail wheelsets for guidance.

All of the experiments I have read about utilized equipment like this:

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/22132463@N07/6900315931/

The unit shown in the picture is working in MOW service but an Australian freight RR did use the same make of Hi-rail tractor to haul grain cars in branchline service for a trial period.

[narig01]

Not hi-railer. What I remember was a 3 axle truck that had a coupler on the back and an air tank and compressor on the deck. Used on branches mostly to switch grain elevators. And to move empty grain cars. The main advantage was they could be driven on the highways to and from remote locations. I don't know the disposition of the equipment.
Thx IGN

[carnej1]

narig01

To carnej 1
What I hand in mind is this use a roadrailer type trailer. You need not have a rail line into each store just a block or two away and use a modified truck tractor that can both pull a small train(5 to 10 trailers) and pull a single semi truck trailer down the street.
CN many years ago was using a modified truck to move railcar loads out in the provinces (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta) . And a lot of rail contractors use modified semi truck tractors around rail construction sites(there is a picture of one somewhere in the KP Harriers site on the Sunset Route double tracking.
These were my thoughts on this. It comes from many years of hauling freight by truck. You have to look at something between big class 1 railroads and single truck operation that moves 20 tons/3500 cu ft of cargo.
Thx IGN

 There have also been experiments in the U.S and Australia in using hi-rail truck tractors as branchline locomotives. The big problem in these various operations is that the power units went through tires like crazy. There is a lot more wear on the rubber tires (which are the source of traction in rail mode) of the hi-railer than in it's more common usage, which involves driving on the road to a spot near where it will be working, than using a level road crossing to become "railborne"..

I wasn't aware that CN used hi-railers to pull revenue freight but they did experiment with this:

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2012/04/cns-ecorail.html

 

 

[narig01]

To carnej 1: My idea is not carload shipments to stores but to move the shipments that go from DC's to stores from highway to light rail.
Rgds IGN

[narig01]

One other question what is the difference in maintenance costs between a street that has a lot of truck traffic and a properly built light rail line? Can anyone quantify this? Particularly if the light railline is not as heavily used.
Thx IGN

[narig01]

To carnej 1
What I hand in mind is this use a roadrailer type trailer. You need not have a rail line into each store just a block or two away and use a modified truck tractor that can both pull a small train(5 to 10 trailers) and pull a single semi truck trailer down the street.
CN many years ago was using a modified truck to move railcar loads out in the provinces (Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta) . And a lot of rail contractors use modified semi truck tractors around rail construction sites(there is a picture of one somewhere in the KP Harriers site on the Sunset Route double tracking.
These were my thoughts on this. It comes from many years of hauling freight by truck. You have to look at something between big class 1 railroads and single truck operation that moves 20 tons/3500 cu ft of cargo.
Thx IGN

[carnej1]

narig01

While serving a single store with a rail line would not make a lot of sense. Having clusters of stores in close proximity served by a rail spur would. Think of s suburban shopping mall or a location with two to four big box stores within a 1/4 mile radius. With something like a road railer you would not need to have a rail spur to the store just close enough that one operator/driver could spot the cargo from a block or two(under a half mile).
This way one person could drop 8 to 10 trailers during a day.
Thx IGN

The big problem with "cutting out the middleman" (i.e. having the Target's and Lowe's of the world go from a "hub"(distribution center) and "spoke"(retail store") logistics model to the above) is that it would require a lot more on -site storage (warehousing) of product at the site of the store. Rail freight is most efficient in large volume and I don't see where the cost savings are. The big retailers do everything they can to try to minimize inventory at the store level and have a "just-in-time" delivery model as much as possible.

 The above proposal would essentially require a retailer to have to cover (partial) costs for an individual distribution center per store... 

 

 

[C2Cin2006]

Ironic that one of the world's biggest automobile builders uses trams to deliver parts to factories. I have seen the Dresden cargo tram in operation.

[Bonas]

Big 4 Lumber was so named because it was on the railroad and got lumber from the railroad.

[narig01]

PS Brick is another example. Most brick yards I've seen tend to be within a couple of hundred miles of their customers. They get raw materials by rail and deliver product by truck. Again when a subdivision is built,many truckloads of materials get delivered.
I may be wrong about brick I have not seen a lot of brick being shipped by rail.

One other comment would the high line in New York City be a park today if it been used to deliver construction materials?

Thx IGN

[narig01]

While serving a single store with a rail line would not make a lot of sense. Having clusters of stores in close proximity served by a rail spur would. Think of s suburban shopping mall or a location with two to four big box stores within a 1/4 mile radius. With something like a road railer you would not need to have a rail spur to the store just close enough that one operator/driver could spot the cargo from a block or two(under a half mile).
This way one person could drop 8 to 10 trailers during a day.
Thx IGN

[jsanchez]

The Home Depot and Lowes distribution centers are mostly rail served, they get lumber  and other wood products by rail, many other independent building supply companies get dry wall by rail and bricks are still shipped by rail a lot. I think the dry wall/ gypsum board by rail business has increased due to the use of centerbeam lumber cars being adapted for this service. You can put 3 to 5 truck loads on these cars. Also of note 84 lumber has increased use of rail the last few years.

Jim

[John WR]

carnej1

Do Home Depot,Lowe', etc.. have many distribution centers with direct rail service?

I really don't know the answer to your question.  However, none of the Home Depots (a total of 4) I have ever visited had direct rail service the the one Lowes I have been do didn't either.  

But what I am saying is that situation could change over time.  Never say never.  

[carnej1]

John WR

carnej1

So are you going to to build branch lines to every big box store or mandate that they all relocate onto an existing rail line?

There  are different kinds of big box stores.  Over time home centers that sell lumber and large objects like plumbing supplies could well be located at the rail siding to have the benefits of rail delivery.  

It certainly was the case prior to the rise of modern home improvement/do-it-yourself megastores that many lumberyards and building materials distributors were located on RR lines and got much of their stock by rail.

It's difficult for me to imagine the industry reverting to the old patterns.

Do Home Depot,Lowe', etc.. have many distribution centers with direct rail service?

[John WR]

carnej1

So are you going to to build branch lines to every big box store or mandate that they all relocate onto an existing rail line?

There  are different kinds of big box stores.  Over time home centers that sell lumber and large objects like plumbing supplies could well be located at the rail siding to have the benefits of rail delivery.  

[daveklepper]

Up through WWII and a few years after, there was a partially complete secondary rail network composed of branch lines and lots of street trackage, often combined with streetcar service.   Examples included the South Brooklyn Railroad using streetcar and subway tracks in Brooklyn, Manufacturers Railroad, sharing tracks and outliving the Connecticut Company streetcar tracks in and around New Haven, Altantic Avenue, Boston's, Union Freight Railroad, and just about all the standard gauge surviving interurban lines.  At one time there was a lot more, of course.   Just as buses and private autos took the streetcar business, so did trucks take this freight business.   I think we should be glad that the freight business for the surviving railroads is good, and the future seems more and more to involve intermodel operations that combine efficient long haul railroading with flexible local delivery trucking.  But in a way, the surviving short line railroads are a partial secondary network and manage to compete with trucks quite well.

[carnej1]

narig01

As Henry said there is a difference between lumber yards and chain stores.

I will point out that both Home Depot and Lowes use distribution centres(DC), and truck from DC's to store (some of the DCs are rail served).

          What i point out with regard to the lack of a secondary rail network is this, Most big box stores at this point get 3-6 truckloads a day. Multiply that by the number of chains and by the number of stores in a given area and you see why the huge numbers of trucks in major metropolitan areas.

         In my humble opinion we should get this traffic off road network and onto a secondary rail network.  The incentives for usage should be one driver could handle an entire nites deliveries to one or more stores.The advantages for the public are reduced heavy truck traffic. The disadvantage cost.

Rgds IGN

So are you going to to build branch lines to every big box store or mandate that they all relocate onto an existing rail line?

 If you'd rather build in-road streetcar tracks for fleets of cargo trams on a huge scale are you really solving the traffic congestion problem? 

 The short haul business was the first thing to move to motor trucks way back early in the last century and for good reason. As far as the 5 mile trips you speak off, i suspect they went by horse and wagon in the pre motor vehicle era..

[John WR]

henry6

Not just the government but also business, John, have invested in highway...if business wanted rail they would have gotten the government to go rail.  The so called Highway Lobby pushed concrete, gasoline, and  private carriage.  

There are, Henry, different businesses with different needs.  As you no doubt know there was a time when department stores were down town and everything they sold was brought in by rail and then delivered on small trucks to the store or people's homes.   That system worked so well that it was part of making the United States the biggest and most powerful country in the world.  

Once the highway lobby got going and large trucks got into the act a store had to be just off a large highway for delivery to happen.  City streets are too narrow and congested of big over the road trucks.   This is not the only thing that pushed department stores out of the city and into the suburbs but it is one of them.   

Today, however, there is another change that is really challenging suburban shopping centers.  Consumer goods are delivered to hugh warehouses as has been described above, often by rail.    Those goods are not shipped to department stores; they are sold on the internet.  As I write internet retailers do not pay sales tax which gives them a big competitive advantage over suburban mall stores.  (In New Jersey sales tax is 7 per cent).   Congress seems about to change that but even when it does small internet companies, who sell less than $1 million per year, will be exempt.  

Where this will lead I don't know.  My skills do not include clairvoyance.   

John

[henry6]

Not just the government but also business, John, have invested in highway...if business wanted rail they would have gotten the government to go rail.  The so called Highway Lobby pushed concrete, gasoline, and  private carriage.  

As for lumber movements by rail, yes, Home Depot and Lowes rely on distribution centers as do several co-ops and chains.  One chain here in the east frequently uses rail, however, 84 Lumber has sidings where available.

[John WR]

What you say is true enough.  It reflect the fact that in the United States government has chosen to invest in road transportation rather than rail transportation.  Since almost all investment is in roads and almost none is in rails it limits the US to road transportation and prevents considering other options.  

[narig01]

As Henry said there is a difference between lumber yards and chain stores.

I will point out that both Home Depot and Lowes use distribution centres(DC), and truck from DC's to store (some of the DCs are rail served).

          What i point out with regard to the lack of a secondary rail network is this, Most big box stores at this point get 3-6 truckloads a day. Multiply that by the number of chains and by the number of stores in a given area and you see why the huge numbers of trucks in major metropolitan areas.

         In my humble opinion we should get this traffic off road network and onto a secondary rail network.  The incentives for usage should be one driver could handle an entire nites deliveries to one or more stores.The advantages for the public are reduced heavy truck traffic. The disadvantage cost.

Rgds IGN

[tomikawaTT]

henry6

That's not the way chain stores operate...they get stuff into their warehouses, sometimes even by train.  Then each store gets a truckload or ten per day from that warehouse .  

To elaborate somewhat;

Each retail outlet carries thousands of line items of product, ranging from aardvark tongues to zymological ointment.  Consumption varies wildly - tons of toilet paper, ounces of oat bran supplement.  The distribution center gets each kind of product as a shipment - truckload, carload or container load.  Then each bulk arrival is split out to the various retail outlets in accordance with data developed by the POS computers.  Out of 1000 boxes of jellied grasshoppers delivered by a single truck, individual stores will need one or two.  Any surplus will be held, to be shipped to stores with higher demand as necessary to keep the shelves stocked.  OTOH, the single truck (or pup trailer) sent to Store X will be carrying various quantities of several hundred different products,  The total may be barely enough to stuff a single 24 footer.

Very little product is actually warehoused, either in the distribution center or in the back room(s) of the retail outlets.  Management wants it on the shelves, where customers can get their hands on it.  Management also wants the regular staff to be able to unload and distribute incoming product during normal business hours, to avoid having an off-hours crew or paying overtime.

If a company truck leaves the distribution center at hour X of day Y, its arrival at Store Z can be predicted to within a half-hour, even after several hundred miles of travel.  If a rail car was made available to the local switching district at the same time, not even God could make an accurate-to-the-half-hour estimate of its arrival time - except to say that it would almost certainly take longer.

In today's world, anything that uses manpower costs money, and that includes transloading to other means of transportation.  Those humongous distribution centers are filled with automatic handling machines, and rather small human staffs.  I can't think of any freight-on-tram/light rail that would lend itself to automation.

Back when the first Shinkansen route was opened, there was a proposal on the table to run ultra-speed container platforms during slack traffic periods.  Even though it seemed to be a money machine the idea succumbed to the realities of track maintenance - there simply wasn't any available capacity.

Chuck

[henry6]

That's not the way chain stores operate...they get stuff into their warehouses, sometimes even by train.  Then each store gets a truckload or ten per day from that warehouse .   

[Bonas]

Theres like 30 Price Choppers here in Albany. Oddly many of the Wal Marts are near railroad tracks. I know that for years that my local lumber comany got direct shipments of retail lumber. If there was a way to get freight from the distribution center by rail directly into the store and locate big box stores near railroads/

NARIG01 has hot the nail direct on the head