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The New Streetcar Age

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Posted by John WR on Friday, February 22, 2013 8:04 PM

Firelock76
Back to trolleys:  Here in Richmond Va. the subject of trolley lines comes up from time to time, but quite honestly I don't know where they'd put them.  The old right of ways are gone or so heavily remodeled it just wouldn't be practical.  Ironic, since Richmond had the first electric trolleys here in the US.

If Washington DC can find a way to build some new trolley lines perhaps Richmond can too.  

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, February 23, 2013 9:34 AM

John, you would think Richmond could find a way to re-institute trolley lines, but trust me, the roads they used to run on are so re-vamped and re-built for rubber-tire traffic there's just no way.  No room at all.  Richmond's got it's GRTC buses and that's as far as they can go practically.  It would be horrendously expensive as well.  I like trolleys myself but I don't see any way they could turn the clock back on this one.

The old car barns are still in existance, though.  They're the bus garages now.

Wayne

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:26 AM

Herring- yes!

Lutefisk- NO!

Fruitcake- Also NO!

For a real Christmas experience, try a bottle or three of Anchor Brewing Merry Christmas and Happy New Year beer. It's the gold standard of Christmas brews, its tweaked every year  and is always excellent. Like drinking gingerbread with lots o' nutmeg and cinnamon.

By the way, there's a 'King of the Hill" episode involving Lutefisk. From what I learned from watching that cartoon, eating a lot of Lutefisk can lead to... Well, lit matches in a church bathroom leads to disaster. Sorry to get off topic. Anyway, do the Electroliners exist today? If so, where are they?

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, February 23, 2013 11:39 AM

Wayne,  

I have to accept your assessment of Richmond.  I would have thought Richmond is one city that might appreciate its own heritage but I guess I'm mistaken.  

John.  

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 23, 2013 11:42 AM

54light15
do the Electroliners exist today? If so, where are they?

Yes.

One is at IRM, and it's been lovingly restored to original colors and finish.

The other is at the Rock Hill trolley museum (in Liberty Liner trim), and I have the first option on it.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:17 PM

John WR

Wayne,  

I have to accept your assessment of Richmond.  I would have thought Richmond is one city that might appreciate its own heritage but I guess I'm mistaken.  

John.  

This former "Capital of the Confederacy"  with a history most cities in the country would KILL to have doesn't seem to know what to do with it or which way to go with it, for various reasons I won't go into.

A pretty good area to live in or around, nothwithstanding.

Wayne   

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:23 PM

Wayne,  

I hope you continue to enjoy Virginia.  It seems somehow appropriate that Richmond's Confederate Whitehouse is actually gray.

I wonder if Virginia had horsecars during the war.   

John

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:40 PM

   As long as the subject is lutefisk:   Have you heard the Norwegian joke Garrison Kielor told on "Prairie Home Companion" many years ago?

   A lady asked a neighbor how she could get rid of a family of skunks that had moved in under her porch.   He advised her to spread some lutefisk around the area.   A few days later he asked her how it worked.   She said, "Fine, the skunks are gone.   But now, how do I get rid of the Norwegians?"

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, February 23, 2013 2:44 PM

John, what color the Confederate  White House is seems to depend on the time of day and how the light hits it.  In the mornings it's kind of yellowish gold, in bright sunlight it's white.  but most of the time now it's in the shadows of the Medical College of Virginias mega-hospital so certainly at that time it's grey.

Interesting fact here.  MCV was founded by Stonewall Jackson's surgeon Dr. Hunter Holmes McGuire.

Did Richmond have horsecars during the war?  That's a good question.  I don't  know. 

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, February 23, 2013 6:07 PM

Wayne,  

In al of the pictures I've seen the Richmond Confederate Whitehouse is gray.  

I asked Google if Richmond ever had horse cars.  The answer is yes, a system was built in 1860 using strap rail.  In 1863 it was torn up and the iron was was used for Confederate iron clads.  A new system was built in 1866.  Here is the link:  http://www.richmondthenandnow.com/Newspaper-Articles/Last-Trolley.html

John

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Posted by rfpjohn on Saturday, February 23, 2013 8:22 PM

"Rails in Richmond" by Carlton Norris McKenney gives a brief mention of the short lived horse car lines. Great book! I think one drawback to bringing trolleys back to Richmond or for that matter, alot of mid to small size cities is the decentralization of American towns. Suburban sprall, etc. Public transit worked great when there was a predictable traffic pattern. Now we are not so much of a society wanting to go from A to B, we also want to go to C thru Z. Downtown is no longer where great droves of people go to work or shop. Right now we go to Short Pump or Stoney Point until something new and shiny catches our eye, probably quicker than you could begin to dream up a bus or car line to serve. It ain't right, but that's the way it goes!

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, February 23, 2013 8:45 PM

rfpjohn
I think one drawback to bringing trolleys back to Richmond or for that matter, alot of mid to small size cities is the decentralization of American towns.

Certainly decentralization of our cities and towns is one part of it.  But the very decentralization seems to be bringing back re-centralization where certain goods and services need to be distributed from a central point.  As our roads fill up with traffic going to strip malls and traffic gets slower and slower we are becoming able to pick out certain points and put in rail transit to them to give people access roads and cars now make difficult at best and sometimes impossible.  

But of course it is all expensive because we didn't allow for the infra structure when we were building all of these roads and strip development.  Now we are paying the price for our lack of foresight.  

I think the article on Richmond is interesting which is why I offer it.  But I'm not familiar with the city.

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Posted by rfpjohn on Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:03 PM

JOHN WR: I would love to see re-centralization. Cities are such an efficient use of space and energy so I hope you are correct. As you said, our roads are filling up. The sprall model has definately shown it's weakness. When the Virginia Railway Express service was first put on, there were more than a few parties betting on it's failure. But anyone who has ever tried driving in NOVA rush hour traffic has to realize that rail transit in that region is a must. Those VRE trains have grown from 3 car, single level consists to 8 car double deckers filled to the gills! Of course they feed a concentrated market destiny, DC. By the way, 3 of the new DC trolleys are visable at the Greenbelt, MD Metro transit yard (carbarn?)  I'm still a little confused as to where that trolley line is to run.

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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:06 PM

Re-centralization is already happening, especially with younger people. Statistics show that younger people, between 16 and 30 or so are not buying cars the way we used to as they do their socialising on line and don't need cars for that purpose. I think this is why transit and commuter lines are opening and expanding all across North America since people want to live downtown and walk to work since you can't push the buttons on a smart phone while you drive. (I know, that doesn't stop a lot of people from texting and driving) There are so many construction cranes in Toronto right now, all building condos everywhere. A drive along the Gardiner Expressway reminds me of the approach to the old Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong. A lot of those condos have minimal parking spaces, one only has nine and they are for those little rental cars that are everywhere now.

Another hopeful sign is that corporations are moving back downtown as that is where their now and future employees live. One example is the Canadian headquarters of Coca-Cola. They used to be out in a suburban office campus and now they are in the middle of the city. Everyone benefits! Less traffic, less pollution so I think the future of mass transit is looking pretty good.

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Posted by John WR on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:52 PM

rfpjohn
But anyone who has ever tried driving in NOVA rush hour traffic has to realize that rail transit in that region is a must.

And it isn't just Virginia.  This is happening in urban areas all over the country.  

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Posted by John WR on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:58 PM

54light15
Re-centralization is already happening, especially with younger people.

The US is moving in this direction but Canada is far ahead of us.  

It seems to me there is a conundrum about the US.  We Americans are affluent which means we can afford cars.  In my state, New Jersey, we have more cars than we have people.  My wife an I share one car but that is unusual; people our age typically have one car per person except for children too young to drive.  But we use our affluence to pay for our cars, the monthly note, the insurance, parking, repairs and gas.  Today gas is over $3.50 a gallon.  So all of our money is being spent.  Places with decent public transportation actually give their people a better life for less money.  

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:12 AM

Streetcars definitely COULD return to Richmond, but they would be pure streetcars, not light rail or light light rail.   They would be similar to the Portland system, and would share lanes with rubber-tired traffic, limiting their speed and usefulness.   Portland, OR, would show the way.   Is there any bus route in Richmond that handles more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour?   Or would ridership projections suggest that the streetcar would do this?   Otherwise, sticking with buses makes more economic sense.   The 20,000 in one hour generally translates to more than 60,000 or 70,000 per day for the specific line.

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:34 AM

John, "Affording" cars isn't the point. It's choosing how you get around. Younger people just aren't interested anymore. I'm 57 years old and have owned cars since I was 16. My job requires me to have a car as I do a bit of traveling, but I wouldn't bother owning a daily driver if I didn't have to. I have to go downtown later and I will go by streetcar. I also have 3 classic cars but they aren't exactly daily transportation. I can't drive them to work, my insurance wouldn't cover them if I did. Here, a car is a convenience (especially for taking my empties back to the beer store) but it's not a necessity like so many places.

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:25 PM

Light,  

I don't know where "here" is.  

John

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:31 PM

daveklepper

Streetcars definitely COULD return to Richmond, but they would be pure streetcars, not light rail or light light rail.   They would be similar to the Portland system, and would share lanes with rubber-tired traffic, limiting their speed and usefulness.   Portland, OR, would show the way.   Is there any bus route in Richmond that handles more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour?   Or would ridership projections suggest that the streetcar would do this?   Otherwise, sticking with buses makes more economic sense.   The 20,000 in one hour generally translates to more than 60,000 or 70,000 per day for the specific line.

A bus route here in Richmond with more than 20,000 people in one direction in one hour?  Gee, I don't think so Dave, Richmond's not that big, not appreciably bigger than when you were here years ago.

And a pure streetcar sharing the road with rubber-tired traffic is what I addressed in an earlier post, there's just no room for it anymore, more's the pity. Light rail to the city center?  I'm not sure where they'd put that either. 

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:12 PM

John, Here is Toronto, Canada. Home of a pretty good streetcar system that I ride just about every day. I live directly on the King street line (the 504) and it stops across the street from my front door. The Roncesvalles division streetcar yard is about 3 blocks away. Just to be specific.  

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:20 PM

Light,  

If you talk about Toronto public transit I will become enraged with jealousy.  I lived in Toronto in the late 60's.  Even them your system is much better than any in the eastern US except New York.

John

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Posted by rfpjohn on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:20 PM

I kind of doubt 20,000 people ride the entire GRTC system per day! 20,000 per hour seems like an awful lot. Does any system carry that many patrons?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:58 AM

rfpjohn

I kind of doubt 20,000 people ride the entire GRTC system per day! 20,000 per hour seems like an awful lot. Does any system carry that many patrons?

You've obviously never ridden the Chicago Transit Authority rapid transit lines during morning rush hour.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rfpjohn on Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:34 PM

Yea, I guess I didn't think that one through! I'm sure DC's Metro routes handle that volume during rush hour.

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Posted by ArizonaJohn on Monday, March 4, 2013 5:40 PM

Portland, Oregon has a new streetcar line running through the downtown area. A second section opened last fall running down the opposite side of the Willamette river (you can ride it to the new steam engine museum with two 4-8-4's on exhibit). In a few years the  two sections will be connected at the southern end by a new bridge being built primarily for a new light rail line (the two sections connect at the northern end at this time). Portland has several light rail lines with both exclusive right of way (including a tunnel through the west hills) and street running in the city center. The street car system is a separate enterprise owned by the city of Portland but operated by the TriMet transit district that owns the light rail and bus system.

The rational for the wholly street running streetcar is that it makes frequent stops along the street without high level platforms so it is convenient for people to jump on and off when making short trips through the inner city. The original line has been popular, the newer section serves a less busy part of town and it is hoped that it will increase economic development in this area.

Tucson, Cincinnati, and Washington are all building similar streetcar (street running in mixed traffic with smaller vehicles than modern light rail) lines. Tempe, Arizona is in planning stages for a streetcar system also and Charlotte, NC is having a political fight over funding for a planned system (both of these cities are served by light rail and the streetcar would be a local street running supplement as in Portland). This is the market United Streetcars is planning to serve. The Portland streetcar is using cars made in the Czech Republic but has additional cars on order from United Streetcar. There have been a number of delays in the United Streetcar order but I believe a prototype car is being tested by Portland streetcar at this time.  

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Posted by John WR on Monday, March 4, 2013 6:27 PM

I'm surprised to hear any city in Arizona is considering streetcars or any new public transit.  I understand that Senator McCain opposes public transit and his word is pretty much law in Arizona.  Has he had a change of heart?

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Posted by long beach railfan on Tuesday, March 5, 2013 1:52 AM
Just my 2 cents, light rail works just fine running down the middle of a street. In my city (long beach, california) the metro blue line light rail runs down the center of long beach blvd. From just north of willow st. Southbound to the 1st. Street transit mall. This same line (2 tracks, loop connecting together at the south end, with platforms inbetween tracks) runs along right of way north of willow st and becomes the subway below downtown los angeles. Yes, these trains do go from street running to below grade running. They are overhead electric trains. Google maps can be used to follow the line until it goes underground. A search of la/lb metro blue line will give even more info. There are other lines that connect with it as well. The metro green line runs down the center of the I-105 freeway (2 tracks, east and west traffic, platforms inbetween tracks). It is overhead electric as well. Ridership is up on all lines and they add more trains all the time. I think more metropolitan areas could be well served by streetrunning transportation in some form or another. The biggest obstacle would be funding it.
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Posted by 54light15 on Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:49 AM

Portland, Oregon is a place I've been meaning to get to one day. It's also got a ton of micro-breweries and brewpubs. A few years ago, two friends of mine flew to Portland to partake of the beverages. The customs guy asked them, "Why did you come to Portland?" One of the guys said, "We've heard that it's a beer mecca." The fact that the man that said that had dark skin, black curly hair and a beard did not help matters. It was about three hours before they could leave the airport.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:17 PM

Next time tell them to say "beer nirvana."  That should be OK.

O maybe "suds central."

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