Coming out of the discussion of the '7 line' as a candidate for the one-seat interairport service, what arrangements ought to be made for 'one-seat' access to the fourth airport, in Orange County where Stewart AFB was.
The least expensive option to get service into this airport is to branch off the Port Jervis line north of Salisbury Mills/Cornwall. But this is just across the single-track-and-likely-to-remain-so Moodna Viaduct. It is also firmly in NON-electrified territory, and likely to remain so (particularly with subway-style third rail!) Construction of a new line to Stewart, perhaps routed via one of the old routes from the West via Maybrook or Campbell Hall, might be technically possible but almost impossible to justify.
The el cheapo 'best approximation' to single-seat -- in the absence of heavy-rail service to the three existing PA airports, which seems unlikely to me -- involves one transfer, at Secaucus, between the light rail airport services and the Bergen/Main lines that transition to the Port Jervis line at Suffern. (As I argued elsewhere, dedicated service from Secaucus to Stewart could be performed with dual-power railcars to produce the frequency of service required, with the optional ability to use the normal approach to NYP, or to operate on other NJT/MNCR services). The old Colorado Railcar company had worked out FRA compliance for this type of vehicle if that turns out to be a design concern.
The other approach is some kind of timed or coordinated road service between Beacon (on the River Line) and Stewart, similar to what Leprechaun now does on a less-integrated basis. It occurs to me that you could build buses similar in principle to the Evans Road-Railers, with more modern active suspension and genset drive, with floor height equivalent to subway platform and movable ramp (as in low-floor buses) to match other platform heights where different. These would run in a manner similar to the proposed systems for 'mobile jetways' -- you'd transition from the 7 line extension (or some part of the extended 34th Street complex, however that develops) up the Empire Connector, over at Spuyten Duyvil to the River Line and up to Beacon, then change mode to road and go across the bridge to access the airport.
Potentially this system would also provide last-mile access to the odd terminals at LGA, or (with adaptation to suit IND clearances) out to where the Train to the Plane's transfer took place... but now with no transfer.
I am tempted to note that transit-weight trains might be a logical thing to consider running over a restored Poughkeepsie Bridge, seeing how close Stewart is to some of the ROWs that go there. Whether the bridge could be restored for that service is another question entirely (the experience with the Riverside viaduct, and the Portal Bridge replacement, indicate that it might easily be more than the cost of a whole new bridge) but I can at least throw it out there.
I don't have access to the initial surveys for the proposed Tappan Zee rail connector, but rather obviously some reconstruction of the Erie's original main line to Piermont gets you out to where you could access the Port Jervis (or Pascack Valley, which runs into Suffern) line.
Who has thoughts, materials, etc.?
Geography and topography prevents any connection west of the Moodna Viaduct. from Stewart. Either the Newburg branch has to be rebuilt along Rt 32 to the line at the old Newburg Jct or it be connected to the RIver Line (CSX has a red board out on that of course) or across a new Tappan Zee Bridge to the MNRR Hudson Line...at least those are the plans being discussed so far. It is a NYS Dot and MNRR call.
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IMHO Newburg ( Stewart ) is a non starter,. Way too expensive to correct these items.
1. Has only 1 east west runway with very very expensive costs to add even another parallel runway north of present runway. SOUTH SIDE blocked by air force & army reserve units.
2. Until a few years ago had a 150 ft. hill south of the runway that limited landing minimums. don't know if hill has been removed ?
3. New tower, cargo facilities, and rising terrain north of runway.
4. There is rising terrain both east and west of runway that also causes displaced landing threasholds. Category - 3 operations not likely until terrain cleared.
5. Runway not long enough for many maxed weight take off aircraft. That limits range of flight.
6. Due to other NYC airports the airway layouts favors east - west traffic not any to / from south.
7. It is a good reliever and emergency airport as long as there are not weather problems. Saved a FED EX crew by being an emergency airport.( fire in aircraft -- emergency descent to airport in about 3 minutes because of clear airways then plane burned up on runway. )
Stewart, however, is gaining acceptance from the public. And NYDOT has plans for new Tappan Zee Bridge and other highway and transportation improvements. Plus the other area airports need relief now and more in the future.
Overmodwhat arrangements ought to be made for 'one-seat' access to the fourth airport, in Orange County where Stewart AFB was.
With a little net surfing I learned Stewart Airport is 3 miles from the Salisbury Mills Cornwall station on the Port Jervis Line. Running time from Seacacus is, depending on the train, 66 to 89 minutes.
If enough people want to use Stewart it seems to be that for 3 miles a shuttle bus is the simple straight forward solution to transportation from the station to the airport. If the demand were there then a dedicated transit way could be possible.
An express train from Seacacus to Salisbury MIlls Cornwall station could make the trips faster.
But the consensus seems to be that people from New York prefer local airports because they are faster to get to.
More active taxi service from this station is more viable than any sort of rail link, I believe. Besides the fact that this so-called "fourth airport" is at least two hours from La Guardia, that is, if you considered a a theoretical rail link to La Guardia (which doesn't exist), and an even longer ride from Newark "Liberty" Airport considering the very long and far walks to the NEC connection. Oh, and if you're at Kennedy Airport, it would be a far longer trek in spite of its weird people-mover train that only passably resembles a convenient ride and doesn't directly connect to anything by the NYC Subway.
This "Fourth Airport" is anything but.
Never mind crow fly miles, look at the topographical maps. Salisbury Mills is not a thy to. They are already looking at rail on the new Tappen Zee bridge to take passengers to GCT instead of NYP or Hoboken. There are also those who look at the concept of using the West Shore..the current CSX River Line, or use the abandoned right of way of the New York and New Jersey which would be an extension of the Pascack Valley from Spring Valley. Topography here was the challenge of rail builders of the 19th Century and continues to be so today...yes, technologies have changed but the quick elevation changes and the narrow and winding river courses haven't. Twelve hundred feet is not high, but when it has to be climbed in less than 2 miles instead of 10 or more, it does become a problem. Over fifty years of driving and riding trains from the banks of the Hudson to the Southern Tier of NY has taught me to marvel at the ingenuity of the canal and rail builders of the early and mid 1800s and even those into the 20th Century where quick elevation changes, narrow river valleys, up and down grade and dips, and and the many and sharp curves it took to build a railroad. Greatest example is probably the NJT/MNRR Southern Tier Line from Suffern to Harriman, hard on the banks of the Ramapoo River. Erie hacked out the line in the 1840s and was only able to get two tracks in which served freight and passenger trains for over a hundred years. And if you look at the line east of Suffern, either the original across to Spring Valley and Piermont of the 1840 or the later line following the Ramapoo into the hills of North Jersey, you will understand what I mean and why I am so impressed with what was done back then to overcome these obstacles which remain obstacles today.
aegrotatiothe fact that this so-called "fourth airport" is at least two hours from La Guardia, that is, if you considered a a theoretical rail link to La Guardia (which doesn't exist), and an even longer ride from Newark "Liberty" Airport considering the very long and far walks to the NEC connection. Oh, and if you're at Kennedy Airport
It is hard for me to imagine a person flying into and one of the 3 New York airports and then transferring to Stewart. However, if the service were available, I can see a person living in the surrounding area (and there are a lot of people who do live in the surrounding area) beginning or ending a trip at Stewart if there were a reasonable way to get there.
It frees up the airports, too, so a jam at one can be alleviated at another with minimal inconvenience to passengers. But access to inner city is what most are looking at. Plus, if you are going to North Jersey or mid Hudson Valley, why not shoot into Stewart and take public transit instead of having to trudge up from Newark or extricate yourself from JFK? Or vice versa...fly into the airport closest to your destination. When putting together a reunion of classmates from Denville, NJ public school several years ago, everyone was targeting Newark. One smart lady from Louisiana flew into Allentown-Bethlehem because it was cheaper and less congested and more reliable than Newark or the others...Stewart, White Plains, Tetaboro, Allentown-Bethlehem, Morristown, even Scranton, could offer alternatives if the attending access services were provided....
henry6Stewart, White Plains, Tetaboro, Allentown-Bethlehem, Morristown, even Scranton, could offer alternatives if the attending access services were provided....
Unfortunately, Henry, "attending access services" can be a big if. Yet they don't have to be elaborate or expensive, After all, public transit is all about connections.
John WR henry6Stewart, White Plains, Tetaboro, Allentown-Bethlehem, Morristown, even Scranton, could offer alternatives if the attending access services were provided.... Unfortunately, Henry, "attending access services" can be a big if. Yet they don't have to be elaborate or expensive, After all, public transit is all about connections.
And the whole point Public Service proved back in the '30s was that 'connections' of sufficient volume, at sufficiently frequent intervals, is usually providable better by bus than dedicated railcars, right up until you have adequate volume for cost-effective trains, or require the high speed and limited footprint possible with rail service. Don't sit up waiting for rail service to Teterboro, or Avoca, or even Bethlehem-Allentown, when buses could do the 'last mile' accommodation much better than trains expen$ively routed there.
RAIL public transit is all about volume.
OvermodAnd the whole point Public Service proved back in the '30s was that 'connections' of sufficient volume, at sufficiently frequent intervals, is usually providable better by bus than dedicated railcars
That's why I suggested that a simple bus would be the best way to transport people between Stewart Airport and the closest Metro North Station. This is a rural area so road congestion is not a significant factor. Of course a bus will not provide a one seat ride but over all it seems better.
John WR OvermodAnd the whole point Public Service proved back in the '30s was that 'connections' of sufficient volume, at sufficiently frequent intervals, is usually providable better by bus than dedicated railcars That's why I suggested that a simple bus would be the best way to transport people between Stewart Airport and the closest Metro North Station. This is a rural area so road congestion is not a significant factor. Of course a bus will not provide a one seat ride but over all it seems better.
It already is (see the Port Authority's official Stewart Airport page: service to both the Port Jervis line and over the river to Beacon and the Poughkeepsie line.) Hard to believe that a fleet of hybrid buses and/or trolleybuses aren't a far better approach (pun intended) compared to the rather amazing level of public works needed for even a people-mover connection to Salisbury Mills/Cornwall...
Why people forget how mature trolleybus development has become, I do not quite know. (And then there's the potential for the 'Hydrolley' if for no other reason than POC of the technology...)
You can also mention that buses are better than a 'train' extension because the required platform length at terminal would provide less comfort for 'one-seat' at the ends of the train. Better, I'd think, to allow detraining at 'face gates' with easy all-weather access to the bus, and then going direct from the bus door into the terminal... luggage easier to handle that way, too, with some care.
Leprechaun Bus Lines provides infrequent service between Beacon Station and Stewart. I can find no bus connection between Salisbury Mills Station and Stewart; there is taxi service.
But even from Beacon you could wind up having to wait an hour and a half or more for your bus to Stewart. Few travelers would accept that.
The idea is to make it a one seat ride as much as possible...airport to train to city or suburban destination point or from that point to Stewart...airline passengers will have luggage, etc. and don't want to get a bus to a train to a...they want to get on and get without transferring again and again....
John WR Leprechaun Bus Lines provides infrequent service between Beacon Station and Stewart. I can find no bus connection between Salisbury Mills Station and Stewart; there is taxi service.
I confess I was thinking of possibility, not actuality. (Don't forget Short Line to Newburgh, that vital transportation capital of downstate New York!) But...
That is like noting that there is very little service to Fairfield Airport. What do you think NJT would do if large numbers of flights started reliably arriving there? It would be the same situation with bus service at Stewart: when the passengers get there, it will be cost-effective to run buses for them.
Henry is right that existing Leprechaun service is not enough of an answer -- running to a plain old run-with-the-bags connection to some Hudson or Empire Connection train that leaves you humping the bags again to get anywhere meaningful. On the other hand, if there are dedicated 'airport' trains, or Metro-North airport cars in dedicated trains, there would be no problem checking baggage at the originating terminal, and having it automatically retrieved and transferred first to the bus and then into the terminal for you. (See the thread over on the Amtrak discussion on alternatives to baggage cars for some ideas...)
The same logic easily applies to 'airport' trains going up the Graham Line. As I indicated, easy all-weather transfer from train to bus is achievable with reasonable engineering, and curbside check-in as an extension to Stewart operations would make short work of most of the 'luggage' issue -- even if your carry-ons were only returned to you on the other side of security.
Henry: with one-seat on a train, how are you going to get passengers with baggage from the ends of the train into the terminal with as much convenience as from a bus door?
RME
henry6The idea is to make it a one seat ride as much as possible...airport to train to city or suburban destination point or from that point to Stewart...airline passengers will have luggage, etc. and don't want to get a bus to a train to a...they want to get on and get without transferring again and again....
I agree Henry. But in our regional airports I just don't think we are going to provide a one seat ride.
Overmod Henry: with one-seat on a train, how are you going to get passengers with baggage from the ends of the train into the terminal with as much convenience as from a bus door? RME
The issue of an additional New York airport as Stewart sounds a lot like the various attempts to promote Gary-Chicago (formerly Gary Municipal) Airport as a third commercial airport for the Chicago metro area. There have been some short-lived attempts by smaller carriers to provide service to Gary-Chicago but it has not been more than two or three daily turns by anybody and the service was usually withdrawn after a few months. South Shore has a stop at Clark Rd. that is about a mile from the airport terminal, I don't know if anybody provided a shuttle between the airport terminal and the Clark Rd. stop. The real issue seems to be over location, Gary-Chicago is not particularly accessible to the rest of the Chicago area, Stewart probably suffers from a similar shortcoming.
Providence's Greene Airport is over 50 miles from Boston but it is a regional airport that serves Boston too. In November, 2011 Rhode Island arranged with the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority to run trains to the airport and south of that. The airport website shows a direct train connection although there must be some way of moving people from the rail station to the airport.
The only reason it survives as an airport as "SWF" is due to the huge post-9/11 exodus of the well-heeled from the NY Metropolitan area into Orange County--believe it, the demographics shifted quickly and dramatically, and a related new housing boom since 9/11.
There was only any real interest in connecting Stewart with the Port Jervis line. The West Shore has no extant or practical connection since it's at water level. The Poughkeepsie Bridge is now a $30 million walkway but it's at a high elevation that it doesn't connect with the Hudson nor the West Shore lines, anyway. The Tappan Zee rail option connects the Hudson Line with the Port Jervis line. The OW rights of way have been obliterated since the 1950s. Norfolk Southern is freight only and not located well enough. The only practical connection is the Port Jervis line.
Stewart is no longer an AF base and is owned and operated by the NY-NJ Port Authority as a passenger airfield...the idea of a rail to city connection has been spoken about since the beginning with everybody, including NIMBY's, CSX, and others pointing to other directions....connecting with the Port Jervis line seems to be the most practical proposition and probably at the old Newburgh Jct. via former rights of way; second is the proposed new Tappan Zee Bridge connection to the Hudson Line (but not connecting PJ line to it); and third choice CSX to Havestraw to the former NY&NJ (Pascack Valley) or the Northern RR of NJ right of way---the least likely of the three choices...a fourth idea is a completely new system using new and existing rights of way but separate from NJT/MNRR...flat maps don't show the topographical obstacles which must be overcome: there is an immediate 100-200 ft. climb on the banks of the river and up to 1000 feet within 10 miles, these are up and down profiles with narrow valley passages and panoramic views making construction difficult so older R'sOW hold the keys to the future services.
Henry,
Did you ever hear of Asa Whitney?
Best regards, John
No. Asa Packer, yes, but not Whitney.
In the middle 1840's Asa Whitney became convinced that the US needed a transcontinental railroad to bind the country together. Over several years he spent a lot of his own money trying to persuade Congress of this but he failed at the time. However, he did persuade Stephen Douglas of it. In the 1850's Douglas introduced and got passed a bill to build the Mobile and Ohio and the Illinois Central as land grant railroads. The two of them were the first north south transcontinental. He then turned his attention to an east west line. He introduced the Kansas Nebraska Act in order to organize the Kansas Territory so an east west transcontinental could be built. After a lot of persuasion and arm twisting he finally got the Congress to agree but he had to include a clause specifically repealing the Missouri Compromise. The issue of slavery was to be resolved in the territories by popular sovreiginty. The law passed in March, 1854. It was extremely unpopular in the north; Douglas said that when he returned home to Chicago he would find his way by the light of his own burning effigies. And of course no railroad was ever considered until years later. But after the Civil War when a transcontinental railroad was built is was close to what Asa Whitney envisioned back in the 1840's. He was a man ahead of his time.
aegrotatio ... There was only any real interest in connecting Stewart with the Port Jervis line. The West Shore has no extant or practical connection since it's at water level...
...
There was only any real interest in connecting Stewart with the Port Jervis line. The West Shore has no extant or practical connection since it's at water level...
The Port Jervis line, just north of Salsbury Mills where the line bends to the west, crosses the 400' elevation contour. You can follow that contour along a small watercourse all the way to Stewart Airport, so topographically you could have a level route. However, on Google Earth there is still a visible remnant of the old Erie RR Newburgh Branch, from a Newburgh connection with the West Shore line, to the Vails Gate area at 300' elevation. From there you can follow a watercourse to Stewart with a reasonable grade.
Another question, what is the Northern RR of NJ and where does it run?
A while ago I had access to highly detailed railroad overlays in KML format for Google Earth which included several decades' worth of abandoned routes in the Northeast. I don't have access to them now. *sniff*
aegrotatioIs this the line that runs through Washingtonville and under the Moodna Viaduct and connects with the abandoned Erie Main Line near Rte. 17? Another question, what is the Northern RR of NJ and where does it run? A while ago I had access to highly detailed railroad overlays in KML format for Google Earth which included several decades' worth of abandoned routes in the Northeast. I don't have access to them now. *sniff*
Used to. Erie lines out of Newburg are gone...the Northern Railroad of NJ is a freight only right of way east of the River Line from Marion Jct. area of Jersey City paralleling the NYSW tracks to Bergen then goes only to Nanuet I believe....talk is for it to be used for a light rail corridor.in Bergen County.
Out of Newburg one Erie line did go under Moodna to the old main and both are gone, of course. Likewise the line from Newburg to Newburg Jct. on the Graham line east of Woodbury Viaduct.
henry6the Northern Railroad of NJ is a freight only right of way east of the River Line from Marion Jct. area of Jersey City paralleling the NYSW tracks to Bergen then goes only to Nanuet I believe....talk is for it to be used for a light rail corridor.in Bergen County.
The Northern was a very early construction. It ran close to the western side of the Palisades -- originally to a crossing with the line going to Piermont, and then to Nyack. I can "just" remember seeing trains run on that section (in the early 1970s). It was cut back shortly thereafter. Last I remember, effective EOT was just south of Palisade Avenue in Englewood -- I have not been back in some time to see.
Stations on the line were very substantially built, and many of them survive. The one in Tenafly has been restored -- when I lived there, it had extensive hooded 'shelter' roofing around it, which was cut off leaving the station looking a bit like it was in its bloomers (period term...) For some reason, I remember this being a potential 'connector' to replace the steamboat service between Piermont and New York, and there is an interesting story about why it was not (but I don't remember the details -- some one here will know).
I suspect the emergence from a somnolent branch line came after 1894, when the 'colony' of bankers in Englewood started using the line for their commute. The official Englewood scuttlebutt is that patronage dropped off so dramatically after 1929 that someone had to run an automobile with flanged wheels over the ROW to maintain the franchise... As a perhaps amusing detail, most of the rail in the late Seventies had been made in 1918...
This line was notable as being a logical connection to passenger service over the George Washington Bridge (via the valley that NJ state Rt. 4 ran through). It also crosses the abandoned tunnel -- is it NYS&W? -- and goes under the NYCR shortly after that line emerges at Tunnelhill.
What killed passenger service on this line was the expanded Lincoln Tunnel. New Jersey Transit and Red & Tan ran competing parallel service, occasionally on short headway, that went directly into NYC without additional fare. I loved the RSs and Stilwells, but they didn't even begin to compete with travel for less, more conveniently accessed, that was actually faster to midtown.
When I was very young, there was an extensive freight service to points on the line. The local lumberyard in Tenafly had a straddle loader - still the only one I have seen firsthand -- and routinely used it on carload lots. This was in the years of suburban 'expansion' in that area. I was JUST too young to see something reportedly fabulous: FAs on the cement trains when the big connector between 95/80 and the Bridge was being built in the '60s...
My bad,,,I knew it was Nyack but had Nanuet on my mind....yes, it was an Erie line...so when the E and L merged it lacked a Hoboken connector so carried on the JC to the PATH platform rush hours only...and the tunnel you refer to to Edgewater was the NYSW's.
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