schlimm Your point? I was talking about suburban commuters. CTA provides mass transit almost exclusively within the city of Chicago. The CTA carries some suburban riders, but only from Evanson and Wilmette (most take the parallel Metra line), Skokie and some who park at the Cumberland stop near O'hare on the Blue line. But you again miss or choose to ignore the point, which is very simple. Metra carries many commuters from the suburbs to downtown, about 50% as many as the expressways do. That is a lot and it takes a great load off those expressways or reduces the very expensive/impossible need to build more lanes. Your metric of 4.5 or 5% is absurd because it is almost meaningless. Why? The total of commuters includes folks who live very close to their workplace or where there is no readily accessible transit, if any at all A friend down in Urbana (UIUC) walked to work daily, about four miles round trip for many years. Why? He chose to because it was close and good exercise. Where I reside I can drive the five miles to my clinic or walk or bicycle (which I do often in milder weather). There is no transit option. If there were, I would use it. When I still taught, I drove the 106 mile round trip because there was no transit option. If there had been, I would have used it. For many people, there is no transit option, even in the Chicago area. You cite your number as though it were evidence that few people would choose transit, "the fact that people will not use it if they have a choice" when it proves no such thing. To prove that you would have to compare the number of commuters in an area where a viable transit option exists with the number who use it to commute. that would be very hard to do. I chose the Metra figures because they give a rough estimate of users who have a choice and roughly 1/3 choose Metra, probably much more since many on the expressway are not going to downtown Chicago.
Your point? I was talking about suburban commuters. CTA provides mass transit almost exclusively within the city of Chicago. The CTA carries some suburban riders, but only from Evanson and Wilmette (most take the parallel Metra line), Skokie and some who park at the Cumberland stop near O'hare on the Blue line. But you again miss or choose to ignore the point, which is very simple. Metra carries many commuters from the suburbs to downtown, about 50% as many as the expressways do. That is a lot and it takes a great load off those expressways or reduces the very expensive/impossible need to build more lanes.
Your metric of 4.5 or 5% is absurd because it is almost meaningless. Why? The total of commuters includes folks who live very close to their workplace or where there is no readily accessible transit, if any at all A friend down in Urbana (UIUC) walked to work daily, about four miles round trip for many years. Why? He chose to because it was close and good exercise. Where I reside I can drive the five miles to my clinic or walk or bicycle (which I do often in milder weather). There is no transit option. If there were, I would use it. When I still taught, I drove the 106 mile round trip because there was no transit option. If there had been, I would have used it. For many people, there is no transit option, even in the Chicago area. You cite your number as though it were evidence that few people would choose transit, "the fact that people will not use it if they have a choice" when it proves no such thing. To prove that you would have to compare the number of commuters in an area where a viable transit option exists with the number who use it to commute. that would be very hard to do. I chose the Metra figures because they give a rough estimate of users who have a choice and roughly 1/3 choose Metra, probably much more since many on the expressway are not going to downtown Chicago.
But the topic is public transit. Not just suburban commuter trains. When I quote DART numbers, I include the whole ball of wax. The national figures cover all modes of transport. That is important if one want to get a total picture.
Actually, the percentage of folks who opt for public transit is not my figure. It is published by the U.S. DOT, which you have chosen to ignore. I said that the figure is a strong indicator that most people have not chosen public transit. And it tells me that most people in the U.S., outside of selected metro areas, will not use it.
I misspoke about the per Metra's ridership, and I have corrected the previous postings. Metra claims that its load factor is equal to approximately 50 per cent of the load factor on the expressways that parallel its lines in its service area to downtown Chicago. As noted in a previous post, exactly what that means is difficult to say.
One could say that the DART Red Line, which runs from downtown Dallas to Plano carries 50 per cent of the traffic on Central Expressway, which is an express way that parallels its red line. But that would overlook the traffic on Hillcrest, Preston Road, Midway Road, Greenville Avenue, etc., all of which parallel Central Expressway and the rail line.
As I have noted, people in urban areas make greater use of transit than people in smaller cities, towns, village, and rural areas. Equally important, I have provided figures from the American Public Transportation Association. You have chosen to ignore them; instead giving us your personal experience that is irrelevant.
Clearly, part of using public transit is convenience. But even in Dallas, which has the best developed public transit system in the southwest, even a significant majority of people who live close to a bus or rail line do not use it. One can see this is the demographics and the use data.
A commute of 106 miles a car must have been tiring. Well, not to worry. We Texans appreciate that kind of long distance commuting. Must have burned up a lot of our oil in the process. Or did you specify that it come only from overseas? If you really believed in public transit, you would have moved closer to a transit line. I did! I rode the Numbers 36 and 184 buses in Dallas for more than 30 years.
Absurd, meaningless, .......This terms are not necessary and don't add to the conversation. If you disagree you can say so without using inflammatory words.
Sam1 If you think the bunch of numbers is unrelated or wrong, why don't you construct a counter argument that is supported by verifiable financial and operational data. What you have offered up are opinions based on your observations. They do not reflect a very good grasp of DART's financials, ridership levels, and activities. The financial and operating data can be found on DART's webpage. Have a look. That is where I get most of my information regarding DART. Three or four years ago, I asked DART for a breakdown of ridership numbers for the buses, light rail and TRE. I never thought that they would make them available to me. Boy was I surprised. They e-mailed me an Excel spreadsheet for every bus and rail line with data for every run from the first run in the morning to the last run at night. As one might imagine, ridership peeks during the morning and evening rush hours. It is relatively light during the pre-morning and after evening rush hours. On the TRE for example, from CentrePoint to downtown Dallas, the rush hour trains had an average load factor of approximately 85 per cent of capacity. However, overall the average load capacity was approximately 33 per cent of capacity. Some of the late night trains, unless there is a special event at the American Airlines Center, operate with an average load of 10 per cent. The figures probably have not changed much. In fact, according to an article in this morning's Dallas News, ridership for the system is down from it peaks. Load factors can be deceptive. During the morning and evening rush hours a typical TRE train has four cars. However, during the day, as well as the pre-morning and after evening rush hours, a typical TRE train has two or three cars. Thus, by reducing capacity during the day, the TRE shows a higher load factor than otherwise would be the case. By comparison, DART does not change the consist of its light rail trains because they are semi-permanently coupled together. Again, if you think these are a bunch of unrelated statistics, that's up to you. But unless you can offer some validated counter figures, I am sticking with my story. When you offer a fact, which is rare, you select the data, i.e. the $7 day pass on DART/TRE/T without mentioning the substantial subsidies riders receive. The reason that you don't understand the financial data and statistics is because you haven't delved into them. Your conclusions are based on personal observations, which are not supported by facts. You are wasting your time criticizing my use of data unless you can present properly supported counter data. If you don't understand the relationship of incomes to neighborhoods to the ability to drive on a toll road to the ability to park close in or the relationship of low income to the need to use public transit, there is nothing that I can say that would convince you that the numbers are drivers of outcomes. Or to be more accurate they are input and outcome indicators. Or that they are not just a bunch of numbers!
If you think the bunch of numbers is unrelated or wrong, why don't you construct a counter argument that is supported by verifiable financial and operational data. What you have offered up are opinions based on your observations. They do not reflect a very good grasp of DART's financials, ridership levels, and activities. The financial and operating data can be found on DART's webpage. Have a look. That is where I get most of my information regarding DART.
Three or four years ago, I asked DART for a breakdown of ridership numbers for the buses, light rail and TRE. I never thought that they would make them available to me. Boy was I surprised. They e-mailed me an Excel spreadsheet for every bus and rail line with data for every run from the first run in the morning to the last run at night.
As one might imagine, ridership peeks during the morning and evening rush hours. It is relatively light during the pre-morning and after evening rush hours. On the TRE for example, from CentrePoint to downtown Dallas, the rush hour trains had an average load factor of approximately 85 per cent of capacity. However, overall the average load capacity was approximately 33 per cent of capacity. Some of the late night trains, unless there is a special event at the American Airlines Center, operate with an average load of 10 per cent. The figures probably have not changed much. In fact, according to an article in this morning's Dallas News, ridership for the system is down from it peaks.
Load factors can be deceptive. During the morning and evening rush hours a typical TRE train has four cars. However, during the day, as well as the pre-morning and after evening rush hours, a typical TRE train has two or three cars. Thus, by reducing capacity during the day, the TRE shows a higher load factor than otherwise would be the case. By comparison, DART does not change the consist of its light rail trains because they are semi-permanently coupled together. Again, if you think these are a bunch of unrelated statistics, that's up to you. But unless you can offer some validated counter figures, I am sticking with my story.
When you offer a fact, which is rare, you select the data, i.e. the $7 day pass on DART/TRE/T without mentioning the substantial subsidies riders receive.
The reason that you don't understand the financial data and statistics is because you haven't delved into them. Your conclusions are based on personal observations, which are not supported by facts. You are wasting your time criticizing my use of data unless you can present properly supported counter data.
If you don't understand the relationship of incomes to neighborhoods to the ability to drive on a toll road to the ability to park close in or the relationship of low income to the need to use public transit, there is nothing that I can say that would convince you that the numbers are drivers of outcomes. Or to be more accurate they are input and outcome indicators. Or that they are not just a bunch of numbers!
So again, how does any of that refute the point DART light rail is a well patronized system. If I look at freeway traffic into and out of Dallas I can see the same traffic trends. Should we then abandon the freeway system since it is congested during rush hours into and out of work but only lightly used at late night? Oh my gosh how inefficient our freeway system is? Seriously, the same holds true for some airlines in regards to traffic trends.
So here is my point that your reinforcing again. Your stats really do not support your argumentative position. I can look at the DART stats but they would tell me a far different story then what your outlining here in this forum.
CMStPnP Sam1 If you think the bunch of numbers is unrelated or wrong, why don't you construct a counter argument that is supported by verifiable financial and operational data. What you have offered up are opinions based on your observations. They do not reflect a very good grasp of DART's financials, ridership levels, and activities. The financial and operating data can be found on DART's webpage. Have a look. That is where I get most of my information regarding DART. Three or four years ago, I asked DART for a breakdown of ridership numbers for the buses, light rail and TRE. I never thought that they would make them available to me. Boy was I surprised. They e-mailed me an Excel spreadsheet for every bus and rail line with data for every run from the first run in the morning to the last run at night. As one might imagine, ridership peeks during the morning and evening rush hours. It is relatively light during the pre-morning and after evening rush hours. On the TRE for example, from CentrePoint to downtown Dallas, the rush hour trains had an average load factor of approximately 85 per cent of capacity. However, overall the average load capacity was approximately 33 per cent of capacity. Some of the late night trains, unless there is a special event at the American Airlines Center, operate with an average load of 10 per cent. The figures probably have not changed much. In fact, according to an article in this morning's Dallas News, ridership for the system is down from it peaks. Load factors can be deceptive. During the morning and evening rush hours a typical TRE train has four cars. However, during the day, as well as the pre-morning and after evening rush hours, a typical TRE train has two or three cars. Thus, by reducing capacity during the day, the TRE shows a higher load factor than otherwise would be the case. By comparison, DART does not change the consist of its light rail trains because they are semi-permanently coupled together. Again, if you think these are a bunch of unrelated statistics, that's up to you. But unless you can offer some validated counter figures, I am sticking with my story. When you offer a fact, which is rare, you select the data, i.e. the $7 day pass on DART/TRE/T without mentioning the substantial subsidies riders receive. The reason that you don't understand the financial data and statistics is because you haven't delved into them. Your conclusions are based on personal observations, which are not supported by facts. You are wasting your time criticizing my use of data unless you can present properly supported counter data. If you don't understand the relationship of incomes to neighborhoods to the ability to drive on a toll road to the ability to park close in or the relationship of low income to the need to use public transit, there is nothing that I can say that would convince you that the numbers are drivers of outcomes. Or to be more accurate they are input and outcome indicators. Or that they are not just a bunch of numbers! So again, how does any of that refute the point DART light rail is a well patronized system. If I look at freeway traffic into and out of Dallas I can see the same traffic trends. Should we then abandon the freeway system since it is congested during rush hours into and out of work but only lightly used at late night? Oh my gosh how inefficient our freeway system is? Seriously, the same holds true for some airlines in regards to traffic trends. So here is my point that your reinforcing again. Your stats really do not support your argumentative position. I can look at the DART stats but they would tell me a far different story then what your outlining here in this forum.
Look them up! Then use them to tell me why my interpretations of DART's data, as well as the other data basis that I reference, are wrong.
Once again, sam1 misses the point. Since intelligence and skill with figures is not an issue, the motivation is the cause. No one said transit is solely suburban rail. I simply gave Metra as an example of how popular transit can be on a large scale when the service is available. If you do not understand or choose to ignore why the 5% statistic is inappropriate (I will use that term, rather than absurd), no matter the source, for the explicit and clear reasons given, then that is your choice. I am not about to explain it again. Re-read what i stated and reason it out for yourself. My anecdotes were simply a way of illustrating the reasoning behind why your stat is inappropriate. Again, if you do not understand that concept, perhaps someone else can explain it for you.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Sam1 So if I have a view that is contrary to yours, it is a slam? But if you disagree with me, it is an enlightened view blessed by a higher power. Is that your perspective? The real problem is that you don't like the fact that I disagree with you on a number of issues. Unfortunately, instead of presenting a well constructed, data supported counter view, you attack my perceived social and political views.
So if I have a view that is contrary to yours, it is a slam? But if you disagree with me, it is an enlightened view blessed by a higher power. Is that your perspective? The real problem is that you don't like the fact that I disagree with you on a number of issues. Unfortunately, instead of presenting a well constructed, data supported counter view, you attack my perceived social and political views.
The point is that everyone has an opinion off center to you and you have "slammed" everybody who has responded...like you set us all up so you could take shots at us. Even when we agree with a point or whatever, you seem to want to turn it into a "slam" of some kind.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
Ok, so five (5) per cent is a national figure. It is a starting point that tells us that pubic transit is not widely used in the United States.
So how about 8.5 to 12 per cent of the people in the Chicago area as public transit users as per the APTA. Or 4.8 to 6.4 per cent of the folks in the Dallas light rail service areas. Are these reasonable indicators of people's interest in and use of public transit?
I worked on the DART referendum effort. My big, really big, corporate employer assigned me to the team that got it done. Out of the effort came DART and its light rail program, amongst things. I rode the bus to work practically every day of my working life in Dallas. So where is the motivation issue?
My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live.
Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live.
That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters. henry6 has speculated as to the tone of your responses. Having the final word seems important to you so, as far as I'm concerned, you've got it. Of all the responses, about 55 disagreed with your thesis. The rest were your attempts to rebut those responses.
Likewise I have seen no stats that you have presented so far that backs up that point. You don't seem to think beyond a very narrow range of statistics. How many people are in the Dallas Light Rail system service area? How many of those people are traveling downtown to work or work in the suburb they live? How many cars is DART light rail taking off the road? How is DART light rail increasing mobility?
As I mentioned before.....
1. Freeway more ubiquitous and easier to acccess than mass transit
2. Freeway usually free and does not require a search for a parking place to use.
3. Freeway in many cases of non-rush hour travel via POV is more direct and faster than mass transit with it's many stops.
Make Mass Transit free, Make Mass Transit easy to use from your garage, make sure there is plenty of parking at the mass transit station.....and watch the usage of mass transit increase.
Then of course there is this, which completely blows away your ridership stats on DART light rail:
http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/expect-gargantuan-jump-in-dart-light-rail-figures.html/
CMStPnP Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live. Likewise I have seen no stats that you have presented so far that backs up that point. You don't seem to think beyond a very narrow range of statistics. How many people are in the Dallas Light Rail system service area? How many of those people are traveling downtown to work or work in the suburb they live? How many cars is DART light rail taking off the road? How is DART light rail increasing mobility? As I mentioned before..... 1. Freeway more ubiquitous and easier to acccess than mass transit 2. Freeway usually free and does not require a search for a parking place to use. 3. Freeway in many cases of non-rush hour travel via POV is more direct and faster than mass transit with it's many stops. Make Mass Transit free, Make Mass Transit easy to use from your garage, make sure there is plenty of parking at the mass transit station.....and watch the usage of mass transit increase. Then of course there is this, which completely blows away your ridership stats on DART light rail: http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/2012/10/expect-gargantuan-jump-in-dart-light-rail-figures.html/
Statistics are a starting point. In a previous posting I noted the number of people in the service area by community, i.e. Dallas, University Park, Highland Park, Collin County, etc. I showed their income levels. And I calculated the percentage of actual riders based on the potential riders for the service area. My numbers come from authoritative sources, i.e. DART, U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. DOT, TXDOT, etc.
One can draw legitimately different conclusions from the data. But without it all one has are opinions based on limited observations. Very limited!
People don't have to be going downtown to be potential riders. In addition to the light rail lines, DART has approximately 20 to 30 cross town routes - some go all the way across town (county) whilst others just go part way, as per the DART System Service Map.
You have referenced an October posting on a transportation blog that quotes an increase in August 2012 numbers due to a change in counting methodology. One month of ridership numbers is not indicative of a trend. Most people look at the numbers for a year and then do year over year comparisons.
This morning the Dallas Morning News reported that ridership on the light rail lines is down significantly from 2007 and is flat for this year, even after the opening of the new lines and/or line extensions. But I will wait until DART publishes the 2012 figures, which are audited as part of the financial audit processes.
DART's light rail, as well as the TRE, has taken relatively few cars off the road. Many riders drive to a park and ride lot to catch the train. The Red Line north, as an example, has large parking lots - parking is free - at most of the stations beginning at Mockingbird Lane Station and continuing to Parker Road. Thus, to be accurate, one can say that DART has reduced the distance that the cars on on the road, but they have taken very few cars completely off the road.
Approximately 30 to 35 per cent of the people commuting into the CBD come by DART. Of those traveling on DART's hosted facilities, as DART's numbers show, the HOV lanes host the greatest number of passenger trips.
To dismiss an argument by saying that a presenter doesn't think beyond a very narrow range of statistics is not a valid argument, especially given the fact that you have offered no counter statistics other than to cite a blog report regarding one month of statistics that have not been independently verified. And since it is taken out of context, it adds no insight into the percentage of the population that uses public transit, which was one of the opening questions of this thread.
Anyone who has read my postings carefully knows that my knowledge of DART extends beyond the statistics. I worked on the DART referendum campaign, was part of the citizens advisory committee during DART's formative years, and rode public transit downtown practically ever day for more than 33 years.
Make mass transit free, make mass transit easy to use from your garage. Austin and Portland, Oregon tried free transit for a short period. The results were disastrous. You just lost me.
schlimm Sam1My main point is that relatively few Americans opt for public transit when they have choices, although they do so in varying degrees depending upon where they live. That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters.
That point is not supported for the logical reasons I have made abundantly clear, probably to all but you. Why no longer matters.
This thread has been viewed 1,905 times and generated 98 responses. It must have taken a significant amount of time to systematically survey even a valid statistical sample of observers and respondents to determine that everyone gets it except me.
Parking is NOT free at the DART light rail stations, you have to pay at Parker Road and all the way to LBJ if your not in the DART Light Rail service area and you use the service. Furthermore, Parker Road parking lot is typically full of cars before the morning commute rush hour has even completed. Again you do not mention these items. So my question to you is, where do I park my car for the day if I want to use a Red Line train into downtown? Lets say I live in the Service area and I can park free given that I went to the trouble of obtaining a parking pass.............again, where do I park my car for a day if I wish to use a Red Line train into downtown. That right there limits ridership, you present it as free choice. How is it my free choice NOT to use DART light rail if I can't park anywhere within a mile or two of the rail station?
Where is this information above reflected in the stats you quoted? See my point? You can't have tunnel vision on the stats nor can you say seriously they are a good place to start.
You know I had a similar argument with someone in Milwaukee that was trying to tell me that the Amtrak Mitchell field station was a intermodal station. My response was it was not fully intermodal until it was manned and accepted checked baggage. I cannot detrain at Milwaukee Mitchell Field from any train which has my bags checked in Chicago as there is nobody at that station to unload the baggage car...............yet Amtrak is reporting stats as if it is a fully intermodal station. Is that statistically correct? I don't think so.
Oh and one more item, DART light rail ridership has dropped also for the reason that Dallas employment market still has not fully recovered. Granted some of that spike in ridership was due to the shock of higher gas prices and once that shock subsided some returned to their cars BUT another part of it is that we still have a high unemployment rate in downtown Dallas. I would presume the same is true for Chicago but I have not checked. So this is another shortcomming of just looking at a few narrow stats and saying you have the causation based conclusion.
The 5% transit use national figure tells us it's a small portion of the total, but unless there is a reasonable transit option for every possible trip, it infers nothing about choice. To qualify choice you would need to study lanes where there are options. One poster cited a Chicago statistic where commuter rail gets about 50% of travel compared to parallel freeways. While it was pointed out there is some fuzziness to the stat, it shows a case of approximate parity between the two modes where they go head to head.
In interests of facts, I should point out that the 10 routes parallel to the Metra lines include three toll interstates continuing outside Chicago, i.e. a combination of expressway and toll. All the routes are plagued with delays during the rush hours.
A group called the Mother Nature Network. has posted a map on FB which shows NJ has the largest population percentage reliant on public transportation. So, that show that some of my observations are jaded to the same extent all others are. But proves there is a need for public transportation and that not all users of public transportation, by far not all users of public transportation, are low income or losers. In reflection, NJ railroads have reflected that with the NY&LB-PRR's The Broker to Bay Head and the DL&W's various Bankers Express's: Hunterdon HIlls, Madison and Morristown along with the drumheaded Lakeland Express. Bar cars on the NYC, NH, LIRR, and PRR also would indicate a martini or bourbon exceeded the value of a beer at that time.
henry6 Bar cars on the NYC, NH, LIRR, and PRR also would indicate a martini or bourbon exceeded the value of a beer at that time.
No doubt you remember this better than I do. The Erie ran bar cars on its trains. Conrail ran bar cars on those same trains. NJT stopped them because they were losing money; only the government could loose money selling liquor by the drink.
But you could (and as far as I know still can) buy beer, wine or liquor at Hoboken Terminal and drink it on the train. The train remains the only civilized way to travel.
By the seventies bar cars were a board placed across two seats and a bucket of ice. Back when, there was an actual kitchen or bar set up and a steward to serve even at the seat.
John WR No doubt you remember this better than I do. The Erie ran bar cars on its trains. Conrail ran bar cars on those same trains. NJT stopped them because they were losing money; only the government could loose money selling liquor by the drink.
Considering that dining-car service was historically a red-ink item (back to at least the 1920's), it's not surprising that bar service on suburban trains was also a money-loser.
It was a money loser to an extent...it served as a valuable PR and advertising tool aimed at stockbrokers, bankers, and big company officers. The real end was when the railroads left the long distance passenger buisness and no longer had commissaries and rosters to cover the jobs.
A problem overlooked by both proponents and opponents is how many people want to take public transit but cannot because of lack of parking at stations. Phoeebe has often told us that the southernmost station in Charlotte is always full on business days. Southern California has I believe at least 5 parking lot expansions ( some one there know ? ). Here is an example in NJ of people not being able to get a place after 7 am for buses.
http://www.app.com/article/20130106/NJNEWS/301050095/Parkway-exit-109-Park-Ride-lot-has-no-place-commuters-grow?nclick_check=1
schlimm Your contention originally was that only 5% of the US public uses transit. When the obvious absurdity of that was pointed out, you retreated to the contention that even in urban/metro areas, transit is not favored by many folks who commute. Of course in many metro areas, there have not been any alternatives to auto (or possibly long bus rides) until recently, if even now. Consequently a more useful metric is to look at the experience in metro areas that have a well-developed suburban rail commuter system. I gave the example of Chicago, where "Metra carries approximately 50% of the trips to downtown in each of the major expressway corridors. It would take 29 lanes of expressways to accommodate those Metra riders." I believe by any standard, that is a service that has real value, by several criteria.
Your contention originally was that only 5% of the US public uses transit. When the obvious absurdity of that was pointed out, you retreated to the contention that even in urban/metro areas, transit is not favored by many folks who commute. Of course in many metro areas, there have not been any alternatives to auto (or possibly long bus rides) until recently, if even now. Consequently a more useful metric is to look at the experience in metro areas that have a well-developed suburban rail commuter system. I gave the example of Chicago, where "Metra carries approximately 50% of the trips to downtown in each of the major expressway corridors. It would take 29 lanes of expressways to accommodate those Metra riders." I believe by any standard, that is a service that has real value, by several criteria.
Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space...Southeast, NY on MNRR's Harlem line, or Middletown, NY; Dover, NJ on NJT;s Morristown LIne; Hamilton, NJ on the Corridor Landsdale and Doysletown on SEPTA, Babylon, Patchogue, and Huntington on the LRR. You won't find a parking space. But you won't find a parking space inside Manhattan either...at least not as cheap as a ticket on the train even if you have to pay for parking at the station.
Even with considerable expansion and a daily fee of $1.50, our local Metra station's parking lots are almost full. Ditto with the other stations' lots inbound.
henry6Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space.
Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels. Trenton Transit Center is next to two parking garages and other lots. Hamilton Station was built to handle overflow parking from Princeton Junction. Princeton Junction itself is a constellation of parking lots and it takes years to get a permit there. There is a hugh parking lot at Jersey Avenue and now, as another thread describes, a new station and parking lot will be built between them. There are parking garages at New Brunswick and every station closer in has parking facilities. And of course there is Metro Park, a group of parking garages off of the Garden State Parkway. There is a proposal to make available the parking lot at Newark Airport to rail commuters too. And there still is not enough parking.
But as you know there has just been a sharp increase in the tolls at all the bridges and tunnels.
John WR henry6Go to many far out railroad stations after 8AM and try to find a parking space. Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels.
Sometimes I wonder if New Jersey is going to wind up with a solid strip of parking lots between Trenton and the North River Tunnels.
But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ?
seriously --- will the demand outrun the supply ? The limitations of the north river tunnels may constrain traffic.
uestion for some one in the know. are the NJT trains running at max # of revenue cars ? That question is not post "SANDY " but before the loss of much equipment.
blue streak 1 But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ? seriously --- will the demand outrun the supply ? The limitations of the north river tunnels may constrain traffic. uestion for some one in the know. are the NJT trains running at max # of revenue cars ? That question is not post "SANDY " but before the loss of much equipment.
Streak,
All I can say in answer to your first question is that New Jersey's people must not have gotten the message about all of the wonderful freedom that automobiles bring. People might get into their cars and drive off in many directions to find work where they would have free parking and uncrowded roads. In fact a great many drive to the train station and wait for the train. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a lot of the jobs you can drive to are limited to flipping hamburgers or similar skills.
Right now the limits of the North River Tunnels have been reached and no more trains can get through them. Signal improvements have increased the number of trains that can use the tunnels but they have been made. NJT runs specially designed double decker cars that can fit the relatively low tunnels but no further improvement there is possible. And yes, NJT does run the maximum number of revenue cars. On a commuter train all cars are revenue cars. The only way to increase the number of trains is to build new tunnels.
Regrettably, our Governor Chris Christie cancelled NJT's own tunnels. However, Amtrak intends to build new tunnels of its own but their project is still in the planning stages.
John
I have always held that the large parking lots at many transit stations are an admission of failure on the part of the transit system. They became a necessary evil because of the inadequacy of the feeder networks. And of course, since now most drive to the station, the feeder networks don't get enough ridership to justify improvement. A classic "chicken & egg" situation.
cx500I have always held that the large parking lots at many transit stations are an admission of failure on the part of the transit system.
One area where New Jersey Transit seems to lack an understanding of the importance of connectivity is with its bus routes. My own experience is that many of them go close to rail stations but not close enough to connect to those stations. The bus routes that do connect were in existence before NJT took over our transit system.
One example is Hamilton Station in Mercer County. When it was built NJT promised it would be a transportation hub. Yet there are bus routes that get close to it but not close enough. When I lived there I read letters to the editor in The Times (of Trenton) by people who lived along a bus route and wanted to ride a bus to the station but when they tried they found it was impossible.
blue streak 1But John we have been told that people don't want to travel by public transport. How can all the parking lots be full and many lots with waiting lists ?
Ah yes. But Blue Streak1, who should we believe? Our little anecdotes, someone's lyin' eyes or the highway lobby?
Four ridewithmehenry trippers surveyed parking lots and train usage yesterday (Wed 1/9/13) beginning at NJT's Lake Hopatcong Station at 7:50AM returning there at 6:59PM. LH is a little out of the way and NJT's dealing with Sandy and modified schedules are showing with the parking lot at LH being very lightly used with about maybe 20 cars...this was the fourth and final eastbound train of the day and about a dozen people boarded the train that began 20 minutes earlier in Hackettstown and had about 50 or so people aboard...half of whom changed at Dover to the Mid Town Direct train. Mt. Arlington Station parking lot was about 80% full, less than has been seen in the past. However, from Dover and east, with more frequent services all day, the lots were full and the train crew was complaining that even with 9 cars there was standing room only by the time they were to Summit with two stops yet to make before sprinting to Newark.. All parking lots were seen to be pretty full with few spots left. Station platforms were jammed with people. The 9 Comet cars were full with 125 people as opposed the 135 they could be hauling with the super duper, panacea for solving crowding conditions bi level cars. (Duper, in super duper, refers to the public and state officials being "duped" into buying these cars instead of electric MU's or standard cars which crews don't have to walk up and down stairs 20 times or more per run which is dangerous and tiring, but that's another story.) Over on MNRR the mid day train (11:48AM) of GCT for Southeast was about 90% full. The ride was not comfortable but was fast when not in work zones. Express to White Plains then all stops to Southeast. All parking lots full or more (yeah, more, with cars parked on the shoulders of the drive paths into the lots). Southeast is 53 miles out of GCT and its parking lot is overpouring cars. We change to the three car scoot from there to Wassaic at 82 miles from GCT. Train did have two of the three cars well occupied and all parking lots a good 80-90% full at the half dozen or so stations between terminal points. The return trains like wise filled rapidly and totally crowded the platform at GCT at 4:24PM. The NJT train to Dover leaving NYP was totally full and on time. About 30 crossed the platform at Dover to join about 100 passengers on train 1055 to Hackettstown with a large number getting off at Mt. Arlington and about a dozen at LH.
So: anecdotal observation: people ride trains when service is offered when reasonable prices and good convenient schedules and adequate parking are offered.
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