correct. there was some other issues like false pan down commmands etc too the Alp46 seems to be to sensitive for MUing with older equipent.
DutchrailnutThe diesel when shut off gets the HEP of trainline (alp 44) and uses it for battery charging, cab heaters, layover heaters, air compressor etc.
DutchrailnutThe 74 volt trainline would not be enough to keep up with control loads, headlights, ditchlights cab signal etc.
so, the killer for using and ALP46 as a cab car for a diesel pushed train would be the lack of a standard MU feed for the 8 position throttle, it seems.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The diesel when shut off gets the HEP of trainline (alp 44) and uses it for battery charging, cab heaters, layover heaters, air compressor etc.
as for the 74 volt trainline, it has to much of a drop after 4 cars and engine to be effective other than keeping train from dumping.
The 74 volt trainline would not be enough to keep up with control loads, headlights, ditchlights cab signal etc.
DutchrailnutThe ALP44 has a 8 notch thrrottle, the ALP46 does not, it has a stepless throttle.
Dutchrailnut Also the batteries on electric locomotive while acting as cab car, get charged of the HEP trainline, fed from the diesel.
Dutchrailnut If the diesel is used as Cab car, it gets the 480 from the Hep trainline and is fed from the ALP44
The ALP44 has a 8 notch thrrottle, the ALP46 does not, it has a stepless throttle.
Also the batteries on electric locomotive while acting as cab car, get charged of the HEP trainline, fed from the diesel.
If the diesel is used as Cab car, it gets the 480 from the Hep trainline and is fed from the ALP44
daveklepperI think the problem is that the 46's must pick up power from the catenary for everything and anything to work, while the 44's can use battery power for controls and lights for a long period before the batteries require recharging.
I think the problem is that the 46's must pick up power from the catenary for everything and anything to work, while the 44's can use battery power for controls and lights for a long period before the batteries require recharging.
I was surprised to hear about operating diesel in electric territory, too, but it's probably cost savings issue. In other threads people remind me that electricity is much more expensive per mile and NJT is billed for it by AMTK. I would have assumed that NJT would have used a fancy dual-mode locomotive, but they don't, because they're horribly expensive for such a niche train. Except for the fancy cars the power seems temporary and hand-me-down to see how it works before they commit a super-expensive dual-mode engine to this niche service (which isn't doing so well as it turns out).
They're not using ALPs either.
This weekend, there's been a PL42 on one end, and a standard ML cab car on the other end. The trains are originating/terminating at Newark Penn, not at NYP.
The entire P40 fleet has been pulled from service and is being inspected. Also under investigation is the use of the ALPs and P40s together, although the chance of that causing the fire is slim to none, considering that the issue was a bad fuel injector (which is why once the fuel was cut, the fire went out on its own). We'll see what this means for the future of ACES... If these problems continue, maybe they'll run it out of Hoboken?
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I have photographed these consists. The Alp 44's have their pans up and drawing power on the NEC. The diesels are on but NJT is buying juice from Amtrak for the Alps. At Frankford Junction in Philly the pans go up or down. The dispatcher always reminds the engineer about the correct positions of the pans. Today the NJT engineer informed the dispatcher that they did not have a motor and so had no pans to adjust as, for the moment, the ACES train is not using the Hudson river tunnels.
oltmanndThe cab car has to be able to put out the standard 8 notch, four conductor throttle MU signal out on the trainline. Maybe that's the issue?
But there is no cab car in this trainset.
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I think I remember hearing that it was a computer incompatibility issues, but I could be wrong.
Yes, but the P40s are the only diesels that fit through the tunnels. The '44s are the only electrics that work as a cab for the P40s (the 46s don't for whatever reason), so therefore, the locos must always be a P40 and a 44, ONLY.
On the NY - Atlantic City trains, the electrics can and do work as a cab car for the diesels and visa versa.
Yep. Once they shut down the loco, therefore cutting the fuel, the fire went out on its own.
At first, no one was sure if it was the leading or trailing loco, and reports said leading loco, which would be the ALP, which, as it seems you know, is a very close cousin to the AEMs. But then, of course, later reports said the trailing loco, which was the P40, which it really was.
ns3010And, BTW, the fire was caused by a bad fuel injector.
I'll elaborate on what I said about not getting snow inside the locomotive:
If the locomotive (P40) is running, the blowers are activated, which keeps the snow out of the locomotive.
Now, one could argue that they could just let it idle, because it would save fuel compared to providing traction and HEP, but then again, one could argue what idling and/or running it just wastes fuel compared to having the ALP provide traction and HEP between NYP and SHORE (interlocking between NEC and ACL)
ns3010 The ACL (Atlantic City Line) is not electrified, which is why the diesel is required. Diesel locomotives can not (legally) operate in NYC, so the only trains into/out of NYP are electric hauled.
The ACL (Atlantic City Line) is not electrified, which is why the diesel is required.
Diesel locomotives can not (legally) operate in NYC, so the only trains into/out of NYP are electric hauled.
Lee KochI don't get it! NJT has some of the most modern electrics in the world, and yet they are operating diesels on an electrified line! WHY?
to reduce the chances of snow getting in the loco
Also, if anyone's wondering why they don't use other locos is because the P40s are the only diesel locos that fit through the North River Tunnels, and the ALP-46s don't work as a cab car for the P40s, for whatever reason.
Thanks NS3010...it clears up my questions, almost as I assumed the operation is carried out.
The P40 is always on the west end of the train, which means it was trailing in this case.
They've changed the power change several times, but, for now, it is taking place at Newark Penn (to reduce the chances of snow getting in the loco) (so basically, the ALP is only used into/out of NYP). So in this case, the P40 was giving power, not the ALP.And, BTW, the fire was caused by a bad fuel injector.
There are no ACES cab cars, since the ALP-44 is on the north (east) end, and the P40DC is on the south (west) end. The cars (7229-7236) are 8 of the 7200-series Multilevel restroom trailers, and run in two sets of four, with no spares.Although the cars were undamaged, they did not run for the remainder of the weekend, and a set of regular Multilevels, a replacement P40, and a replacement ALP ran, in addition to the other "normal" ACES set.
And yes, both locos are on for the entire trip. Even if a loco is not providing power, it can be used as a "cab car" (like in this case, the ALP was shut down, but was used as a cab for the 4800, which was shoving from the rear).
Hope this clears some stuff up.
What is the SOP? Is the diesel always on the same end or can the train be in reverse order on any given trip? How far is the juice drawn? Only in NJT territory or all the way to the junction? Diesel used only on the ACL or to the river tunnel? Are there cab cars in the train or not because of the locomotive at each end (if no cab cars, then both units have to stay with train for whole cycle?)?
I'd like to know, too, and I asked in the other thread, too. Morrisville is electric territory--perhaps it was idling. I cannot imagine it was required for HEP, but then, I'm not an engineer, so I defer.
dumb question. Why was the P40DC operating or were both the P40 and ALP operating for acceleration? Also which unit was in front?
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