Cincinnati's abandoned Subway

[Mario_v]

Hello all ;

 

I was browsing thru the web one of these days, and just happened to find out that the Queen City almost had a subway system, that several circumstances dictated the halt of the work. Judging by the way it was being done, it would be quite hge and practical, with a 'loop' just like in Chicago. Here's the story :

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html 

By the way, does anyone know about similar projects, whether 'light' or 'heavy' abandoned rail projects in the US?

[erikem]

 I first read about the subway project in Cincinnati & Lake Erie by Jack Keenan. The C&LE was hoping that the project would be finished as it would have allowed direct service to downtown Cincinnati which wasn't possible since the streetcar systems used broad gauge and dual overhead. That might have allowed the Cincinnati to Dayton line to continue to operate through WW2, but....

Arcadia Publishing put out a book on the subway a few years back, nice read.

[gardendance]

 Philadelphia's Locust and 8th St subway, now part of PATCO's Lindenwold line, was originally to have been part of a circulator loop to include Race St. I've read in various places, for example Harold Cox's "The Road From  Upper Darby", that a block or 2 of the Race St tunnel was actually dug.

[highgreen]

Rochester, NY had an operating subway. According to at least one source, it ran from 1927 to 1956. The first link has photos of both its operational and abandoned days, with a route map. http://rocwiki.org/Abandoned_Subway http://en.wikipedia.org/Abandoned_Subway As you can see, this was a trolley (light rail) system, as Cincinnati had planned, rather than a heavy rail rapid transit operation. Boston's original subway was also a trolley operation, with today's Green Line its successor, as was (is) Newark, NJ's subway. (Boston also operates heavy rail, of course.) You asked about abandoned operations, but Pittsburgh planned a "spine line" subway in the early 1900s from the city's Oakland area into downtown. It never came to be. More's the pity, as Pittsburgh's Oakland-downtown corridor is now one of the state's most heavily used urban transit routes, served by crowded buses fighting heavy traffic. (A new rapid bus plan for the route is on the drawing boards.) Pittsburgh's modern light rail system has used an efficient tunnel under downtown since the mid-1980s. Not to be simplistic, but maybe if more cities had put downtown trolley routes underground - expensive, true - street railways might have survived longer.

[daveklepper]

From what I remember having read, and correct me if I am wrong, both Rochester's subway and Cincinnati's were planned mainly to provide fast downtown access for interurbans.    Rochester's lost most of its usefulness when the interurbans were abandoned, but continued as a local operation through WWII with one local streetcar line (I think the one serving the Kodak plant) having access and using it.  Cincinnati had many interurban lines radiating from it which could have done a fine suburban business if the prvate auto had not siphoned the patronage making bus operation far more economical for the passenger traffic that was left.

Interurbans of a sort did use the Boston subway.  Until the Chelsea highway bridge was rebuilt without streetcar tracks, Eastern Masachusetts streetcars from Lynn and other points north of Boston joined the Main Street and Bunker HIll Street Boston Elevated streetcar lines and entered the subway on the inner tracks on the North Station ramp, sharing with the Boston El Type 5 cars the station at Haymarket Square and the loop station at Brattle Street Bowdoin Square.   But the Boston and Worcester never entered the subway, using the Huntington Avenue pre-subway surface tracks to Park Square, where their interurban terminal was located.  Eastern Massachusetts cars from the south ran to Boston El heavy rail rapid transit stations, as did the line from the north from Stoneham.  But in just about all these cases the inner portion of the interurban line was on street tracks shared with local streetcars. 

 In Philadelphia, many remember all the interurbans that converged on the 69th Street western Upper Darby terminal of the Market Street heavy rail line, a few continuing to run today.  But there was one sort of interuban that entered the downtown trolley subway, the "Chester Short Line".  This had considerable PRW outside Philadelphia.  Unofrtunately, by the time, as a teenager, I got to explore it, it had been cut back to the Westinghouse factory, with a bus shuttle to downtown Chester,   The remaining PRW track was not in great shape, and this was just about the time National City got control of the system, so they were not to blame.  I understand the line was used heavily during WWII, but had been up for abandonment just before.  All that is left now is the in-city street-running portion and the subway portion.  At one time, at Chester, one could change to a car for Wilmington and then to Newark, DE. 

[BNSFwatcher]

So!  Now that Cincinnati has abandoned the "Subway" (sic), where does one get a decent meatball sandwich, when on the road?

Do check out Stan Fischler's heavy tome "The Subway and the City".  It is about New York City, and any references to his out-of-city travels are to be regarded with suspicion.  I wish he hadn't included them, but they are a minor part of this magnificent work.  What more could be expected from a kid from Brooklyn?

Bill  --  [e-mail]

[daveklepper]

Why not as much as a kid from Manhattan?   Me?   Determined to ride all the subway and elevated lines by the time of my Bar Mitzvah.   Big Mistake.  Most then running still ran for some years.   But when I started riding the streetcar lines, they started conversion to buses faster than I could keep up!   I sort of went to Philadelphia in protest to ride streetcars there, and Nartional City Lines had not started its big bustitution program, so it was pretty much a paradise.   Imagine, in 1945-1949, parents could trust a teenager to take care of himself riding subways and streetcars all over New YOrk and even Philadelphia.   Today?

[wccobb]

CHICAGO

The comprehensive Plan for the Extension of the Subway System of the City of Chicago -- 1939 -- called for the construction of two east-west streetcar subways that would have extended (roughly) from the Chicago River on the west to the lake front.  This was apparently intended to take the east-west routed streetcars off the streets in the loop, but nothing was ever done. For details give your search engine: "Chicago Streetcar Subways".    

[BNSFwatcher]

I grew up in Westchester County.  I was a total "WASP", so no Bar Mitzvahs for me, but I did enjoy the parties I attended!  My contribution was the 'empty' envelope!  I meant well, but couldn't afford to be munificent.

I am embarrased to say that I never rode a streetcar in Westchester.  In Junior High School (Isaac E. Young) in New Rochelle, 1950-53, there were few left ("Thanks, GM"!), but I could have ridden to Yonkers.  I had a paper route (New Rochelle Standard-Star) and couldn't spend the time.  Big mistake!  Later, I noticed all the unique trolley wire poles throughout Westchester.  They were, I guess, cast/wrought iron, with a neat, unique, filial.  Duh?  There was a trolley line here!, at some point!  We moved to Mount Vernon in '53.  Same deal.  I did go down to the "Third Avenue Railways" shop, just in time to see them burning the trolley cars.  Sad sight!

I obtained a "Hagstrom" map of Westchester County, back about 1953.  It showed all of the trolley lines!  Amazing. 

If there is a book about Westchester trolley cars, I would like to know.  The only references I have cover the lower part of the county.

Thanks.  Bill

[daveklepper]

Contact the New York Division Electric Railroaders Association.   Their office is in Grand Central Terminal, and their Bulletin in recent years covered the entire history, each line one month.  Some including photos.   Roger Acara wrote a book that covers the history, but I don't have it and forgot its name/   He also wrote an excellent book on the NYW&B.