Awesome!What is more efficient and cost effective to used a third rail or overhead?
What is more efficient and cost effective to used a third rail or overhead?
How about over-running or under-running third rail? Are there specific advantages or disadvantages of either kind?
I would opt for 'under-running' third rail. It has these advantages: 1). It is easier to shield from inadvertant contact, if you remember to lift your leg over it. 2). It is easier to insulate, yet gain access, if needed. 3.) It doesn't foul as many "clearance plates", as the overall profile is lower. Yes, some freight cars are restricted from running in third rail territory. 4.) It is more protected from the weather (snow, sleet) than the over-running, upon which ice could/does build up. 5.) It looks better, but that is a NYC opinion.
NYC had some flangers in the Electric Division territory. They had blowers that removed snow build-up from under the third rail, in addition to the normal flanger duties. Cool to watch!
As far as the original question goes, third rail maintenance doesn't require the use of a "wire train". Short segments can be isolated for work, without on-track equipment. Of course, overhead AC is cheaper to distribute than third rail DC.
Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
I would like to hear more about the Wassaic service. What kind of locomotives are used from Brewster North/Southeast, westward? I assume they run into/out of GCT also. Are any FL-9s still running? What ever happened to the two FL-9s that were painted in the NYC "Lightning Stripe" scheme? They were way cool, methinks!!!
Anyhoo, I'd love to see restoration of the Harlem Division passenger service to Chatham, NY and on to Albany! The 8% New York State sales tax should easily be able to support the rebuild! What else do they have to spend it on? A Danbury-Brewster-Poughkeepsie shuttle would be neat. Connecticut could donate some of their sales tax revenue to this venture. A couple of RDCs would work, espically with bar service. Onward to Campbell Hall, and beyond. Even eastward to Waterbury and Hartford! Knock the "Yuppies" off the Poughkeepsie Bridge, keep the Hudson clean (no water bottles, diapers, and Labrador 'Land Mines' being kicked into the river) and connect with the M-NR 'Port Jervis' line, etc....
Bill Hays -- in 'no-sales-tax' Montana!
The line north (NYC RR west) of Wassaic is gone, a walking trail in some places, dissapeared in others. Very doubtful it will ever become a railroad again.
There's a guy here called Dutchrailnut who lives in Brewster and is an engineer for MNRR and I hope he can jump in here and answer your questions better. FL9's are gone, Genisis are in and I believe they are duel mode...GCT trains from Wassaic are up to 10 cars I think, the local turn is, I think, two.
You've got some neat ideas which just are not real enough for MNRR. And the lightning striped units are at the Danbury Museum.
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why all the fuss. why not put a diesel locomotive on the end of a set of m-7 cars. penn station to babylon. drop off half the cars then continue east on diesel. only needed for rush hour thru trains.
herbyd
BNSFwatcherI would opt for 'under-running' third rail. It has these advantages: 1). It is easier to shield from inadvertant contact, if you remember to lift your leg over it. 2). It is easier to insulate, yet gain access, if needed. 3.) It doesn't foul as many "clearance plates", as the overall profile is lower. Yes, some freight cars are restricted from running in third rail territory. 4.) It is more protected from the weather (snow, sleet) than the over-running, upon which ice could/does build up. 5.) It looks better, but that is a NYC opinion. NYC had some flangers in the Electric Division territory. They had blowers that removed snow build-up from under the third rail, in addition to the normal flanger duties. Cool to watch! As far as the original question goes, third rail maintenance doesn't require the use of a "wire train". Short segments can be isolated for work, without on-track equipment. Of course, overhead AC is cheaper to distribute than third rail DC. Bill Hays -- Shelby, MT
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Couople of further point on 3rd rail vs overhead. The first is speed - the fastest regular 3rd rail service I know of is 100mph, it's double that for overhead, with a maximum over 350mph is speed.
The second is about voltage loss - low voltage 3rd rail will lose voltage over short distances, so needs substations every ten or so miles. 3rd rail, with much higher voltages needs many fewer substations. Less fixed plant leads to less cost, though against that the cost of actualy laying 3rd rail is usually much less than stringing up catenerary, as clearances need much less work for 3rd rail.
I don't ever remember seeing springs on NYC or NYNH&H under-running third rail shoes. Maybe I never looked! I think the shoes ran with the horizontal geometry of the trucks. If anything, they might need a spring, or some flexibility, to allow them to 'dip' where third rail was a bit low. Spring-loading them upward would cause them to rise when there were gaps in the third rail, or it changed sides. At he next side-change, an upwardly-sprung shoe would foul the new pick-up rail and be lost! The New Haven's shoes were held down, pneumatically, in third rail territory. I doubt if they were spring-loaded to go up. A momentary air-failure would have caused them to foul the next third rail and be clipped off. I'm really guessing here and hope for enlightenment. I don't know nutthin' about over-running third rail. Yar, there are 'transition' rails, on a gentle slope, on both systems to handle minor variations in the shoe height when changing sides or bridging gaps. Any Engineers, civil/mechanical/electrical, that is, from 466 Lexington Avenue still out there?
Bill Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
The pile of clipped shoes must have been an interesting sight.
BNSFwatcherAt he next side-change, an upwardly-sprung shoe would foul the new pick-up rail and be lost! The New Haven's shoes were held down, pneumatically, in third rail territory. I doubt if they were spring-loaded to go up
Actually I have never looked at the thrd rail shoe either over running or under running. However I have looked at the rails and at all ends of a section or 3rd rail they have a ramp rail. ie on an overrunning rail the rail slowly goes down about 4 inches until the shoe cannot contact the third rail. Opposite on an under running rail. That seems to indicate a spring or pneumatic (?) actuation to maintain contact.
Chicago may still be using gravity shoes, but other than that, as far as I know, all other current North American third-rail uses have some some kind of spring shoe system. The spring may be a pneumatic spring (like the spring system of many modern railcars of all types uses "air-bags") and be part of the deploy-recess, control system, but it is still a spring.
I don't recall ever seeing a "pile" of shoes. Back in 'the olde days', scrap was going for one-cent-per-pound. I suppose local scavengers got to them quickly in Mount Vernon. Why didn't I think of that?
Hays -- wdh@mcn.net
Does anyone know who manufactures third-rail shoes? I'd be interested in perusing their web-site(s). I have no idea what they were/are made of. Could there be copper in them?
Ohio Brass was a major manufacturer. They also made streetcar and trolleybus wire frogs, "ears" to attach catenary to span-wire, and lots of other rail related items. I think also rope trolley catchers and retrievers. (Catchers will keep the rope from running out should the pole dewire, while retrievers actually pull the pole down to the roof. The former were in general use on moderate speed streetcars while the latter were used on high speed interurubans like the North Shore and Indiana Railroad.) A brass/copper and steel alloy is standard for shoes.
I guess when I have time I'll explore the web and see if OB is still in business.
daveklepperI guess when I have time I'll explore the web and see if OB is still in business.
http://www.hubbellpowersystems.com/powertest/ohio_brass/ohiobrass.html
Johnny
I checked the Hubbell/Ohio Brass website. No joy. I could find no reference to third-rail shoes. Maybe it is a minor part of their business. BTW, Mr. Hubbell invented the thingie you screw into a light fixture and it allows you to plug in a male line cord. It is called a "Hubbell", in the trade, to this day. Wish I had known that the shoes were a copper/brass alloy! My scrap dealer screwed me!
Bill Hays
Another "off-the-wall" question: who made pantographs? Also, what is the defining difference between 'trolley wire', simple overhead, and "catenary". I should check Wikipedia, but I'm really lazy... The original New Haven catenary was very heavy-duty stuff: Three triangular messengers with an under-slung contact (copper) wire. I notice that they have recently repainted the lattice-work catenary towers. Not a job I would undertake!
I think the New Haven used to, occasionally, lubricate the contact wires (with graphite?) and had a team in Grand Central Terminal that would inspect/replace the pantograph running shoes during layovers. There were "pocket tracks" in Grand Central Terminal where the "Jets" (EP-5s) would lay-over, under the Waldorf-Astoria, including FDR's platform, just northeast of Tower "C". The "Pan Crews" would be there every day. They would patrol the platforms where the MUs were idle. NYC didn't have third-rail shoe inspectors in GCT. All that was done at Harmon or North White Plains. Dunno where NH checked their shoes, but it must have been out of third-rail territory.
Glad to hear that Ohio Brass is still in business. YOu might write them and ask for a listing or catalogue of their railway related products, both in regular production and custom ordered.
Probably, today, most pantographs come from the the Faverly Company in France. But GE and Westinghouse built their own pantographs in the past.
All trolley wire is caternary. Catenary is simply a shape that forms between to points supporting a string or a wire with any flexibility. However, some railfans reserve the word for an overhead wire system that has both a messenger, the upper wire forming the catenary shape, and the contact wire, which is supposed to be held approximately level. And as you pointed out, their were installations with two messangers, forming triangular "catenary" and double messengers, where the main messanger supports and intermediate messenger that supports the trolley wire, as on much of the original PRR installation.
UPDATE: Does anyone know the disposition/ultimate fate of the electric motors that New York Central used in the Detroit River Tunnel? When was it de-electrified? Just curious...way out of my territory.
Hays
BNSFwatcher UPDATE: Does anyone know the disposition/ultimate fate of the electric motors that New York Central used in the Detroit River Tunnel? When was it de-electrified? Just curious...way out of my territory. Hays
The Detroit River Tunnel was de-electrified around 1954. The steeple-cab motors were scrapped. The R-2 class boxcabs that were transferred from New York were either scrapped or sold to the South Shore Line.
Thanks for the info. I remember seeing the all-black "R" motors on the Hudson Division and the West Side line. I saw an "R" in passenger service on the Harlem Division. It was towing a steam-generator car. Could have been the winter of 1953, after we moved from New Haven territory. CRS, fur sure!
Last week, I saw, on the web (dunno where. CRS! I'll look again) pictures of motors in Detroit. They were lettered for Detroit River Tunnel Company and Michigan Central Rail Road and New York Central Lines, all on each loco! I think the pictures were c.a. 1906 (?). Apparently NYC under-running third-rail standard. Interestingly, they had the little pantographs on top, too, for cross-over work. Anyone know the history of the D. R. T. C. electrification?
I recently (again, CRS) a picture of an "R" motor that was quite different from any others I had seen. It looked like a Swiss "Alligator"!, i.e. an elongated steeple-cab. It was pulling a passenger train! What where there? R-1, R-2, and R-3s? Anything published about them? P. S.: that steam-generator car, on the Harlem, was 3d rail powered.
BNSFwatcher I recently (again, CRS) a picture of an "R" motor that was quite different from any others I had seen. It looked like a Swiss "Alligator"!, i.e. an elongated steeple-cab. It was pulling a passenger train! What where there? R-1, R-2, and R-3s? Anything published about them? P. S.: that steam-generator car, on the Harlem, was 3d rail powered. Hays
If it looked like a "Crocodile", it was probably a PRR L-5. They were third-rail locomotives that were intended to replace the DD-1's. Some of the DD-1's were transferred to LIRR when the L-5's were built, but the L-5's were not a total success due to their longer rigid wheelbase.
daveklepper The "T" Blue Line is the only one left. Chicago at one time not only had Skokie Swift, but Evanston and Lake Street as well. The BMT el trains ran on the surface until 1912 Brighton (now Q and B), 1914 Sea Beach (now N), 1917 West End (now D), and 1918 Culver(now F, very different route north of Ditmas Avenue), where they used trolley poles. And the present "J" did similarly run on the surface on Jamaica Avenue in 1904. (or was it 1901?) Also Canarsie (now L) when it ran all the way to the Shore. Interurbans: Key System or Sacramento Northern, both third rail and overhead were on the Bay Bridge. Someone else tell me who used what. Lehigh Valley Transit, third rail over the Philly and Western, Norristown - 69th Street, trolley elsewhere. (Liberty Bell Route) Sacramento Northern. Trolley Wire in Chico, third rail from there to Sacramento, then trolley wire to the East Bay. Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Laural Line, trolley wire in Wiilksbarre and the South Scranton branch, third rail for the rest of the main line. The Great Third Rail, Chicago Aurora and Elgin, mostly third rail, but wire ont he Batavia b ranch and, if memory is correct, in both Elgine and Aurora. The North Shore
The "T" Blue Line is the only one left. Chicago at one time not only had Skokie Swift, but Evanston and Lake Street as well. The BMT el trains ran on the surface until 1912 Brighton (now Q and B), 1914 Sea Beach (now N), 1917 West End (now D), and 1918 Culver(now F, very different route north of Ditmas Avenue), where they used trolley poles. And the present "J" did similarly run on the surface on Jamaica Avenue in 1904. (or was it 1901?) Also Canarsie (now L) when it ran all the way to the Shore.
Interurbans: Key System or Sacramento Northern, both third rail and overhead were on the Bay Bridge. Someone else tell me who used what.
Lehigh Valley Transit, third rail over the Philly and Western, Norristown - 69th Street, trolley elsewhere. (Liberty Bell Route)
Sacramento Northern. Trolley Wire in Chico, third rail from there to Sacramento, then trolley wire to the East Bay.
Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Laural Line, trolley wire in Wiilksbarre and the South Scranton branch, third rail for the rest of the main line.
The Great Third Rail, Chicago Aurora and Elgin, mostly third rail, but wire ont he Batavia b ranch and, if memory is correct, in both Elgine and Aurora.
The North Shore
I believe that the Key Sytem and SN both used 3rd rail on the Bay Bridge. SP's Interurban Electric Railway used catenary on the same tracks.
The CA&E in its final years had trolley wire in Elgin, Batavia and Aurora. At one time, it also had trolley wire in West Chicago, Geneva and St. Charles (on its St. Charles line abandoned in the 1930's) and on its Mount Carmel Cemetary line.
No, it wasn't a PRR (BARF!) L-1. The 'noses' weren't very long, maybe 5'-0", or less. The picture was taken at Harmon, NY and said it was an R-motor. I'll have to search for that picture. Speaking of the PRR, I have a picture of a 0+C+0 dinky juice jack that I took in Kearney (sp?), NJ, back in the mid '50s, along with a PRR "Bobber" (4-wheel caboose). Tiny thingies. It may have been used as a shop switcher set. The pantograph, on the motor, was bigger than the loco! I'll dig them out, too, and come up with a number, or two. Yar! Had a 'deranged' friend in high school that liked the PRR. We went out that way a couple of times. I, at least, enjoyed the ride on the H&M.
Hays -23.5 F. on Thursday, + 42 F. today!
The standard 11000V 25Hz AC Pennsy Switcher was an 0-C-0 (or 0-6-0 in Whyte steam loco listing) and there must have been hundreds of them: at Penn Station, NY, Sunnyside,yard, Phili, Baltimore, and Harrisburg. The LIRR also had eight or ten at Bay Ridge to switch the New Haven trains. The only 11000V AC LIRR power. The LIRR local freigth between Fresh Pond and Bay Ridge was steam, though..
The standard Pennsy switcher was an 0-C-0m or 0-6-0 in Whyte steam parlance. Hundred or so of them, at Penn NYm Queens Sunnyside Yard, Phili, Baltimore, Harrisburg, Patomac Yard, Enola, Waveryly and Greenivlle, NJ.. LIRR had about eight or ten to switch the New Haven Freights at the Bay Ridge car floatm although the LIRR Fresh Pond - Bay Ridge local freight was steam
I found my 616 prints, but they are in bad shape (mildew)! The caboose, PRR 478413, was shot at West Kearney or Harrison, NJ. Very fitting, for that little railroad. The 0+C+0 switcher, number undiscernable, was shot at Sunnyside Yard, both c.a. 1955, maybe the same day. If anyone wants the 616 negatives (gratis), let me know and I'll dig them out. Purifying my collection, donch'a know? "Out, out!, red stuff!".
Hays wdh@mcn.net
I have been re-re-re-perusing Louis V. Grogan's wonderful "The Coming of the New York and Harlem Railroad". Therein, I found two pictures: one identified as an "R" motor (tri-power: electric, battery, and Diesel), one as a "R-2". They don't look anything alike. Curiouser, and curiouser!
On page 64 is a picture of a "Q" motor, #150 (nee 1250), taken in Mount Vernon yard in 1947. The little loco was a straight-electric, at 1665 hp!, on it's B-B frame. Grogan says it was retired in 1955. I lived in Mount Vernon, and was a habituate of the yard, from 1953 to 1965. I never saw the likes. Any info will be appreciated.
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