Phoebe: 16 - do you mean 16 units with two placed together for a train? Also I was wondering if all track was double track?
Another question does it appear that the filling up of Arrowwood and sharon road is overflow from the I-485 parking deck? Its been so long since I was in Charlotte that I can not remember the lay out of streets.
Blue streak:
Each trainset is 3 pieces permanently fastened together.
There are two identical "front pieces" facing in opposite directions with a small section in between. The black joints are articulated.
The set is 90 feet long and seats 68 with a total capacity somewhere around 230.
A double set is two of those sets joined by a coupler.
CATS wanted to be able to run triples, but the Feds were not convinced that much capacity was needed and so required the platforms to be shortened to 200 feet as a contingency of participation in the funding.
This is one of the over street platforms.
CATS has 16 of those three piece sets, and four more ordered.
I'm sure some of the parking at Arrowood and Sharon Rd are overflow from I-485, because there is an electronic sign next to the road at I-485 that tells people when the ramp is full and directs them to those other two lots.
It's all double track, and while it shares right of way with Norfolk & Southern in some areas, is does not share track. The railroad crossing gates in the second picture are for the N&S track which is at grade level.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe: thanks for all the information. It appears that car capacity is limiting and other than trying to make quick turns at the end points there is no way to increase number of trains and reduce headway. It really is a shame that three unit or four unit platforms were not planned for even though not built. I hope all of learn this lesson and when or if there are plans in your area that this is brought up at all public hearings. Also the ability to build up the parking garages in the future has to be planned. The locating of the college's recreation area on top of the garage was a very smart idea.
Actually, it's an elementary school.
They always wanted 300 foot platforms. It was the Feds who balked. The next project, which is to extend the Blue Line another 11 miles to UNCC they are again begging for 300 foot platforms, and are looking for the money to extend the existing platforms. They are also considering 6 minute spacing instead of 7 1/2 during rush hour, but they don't have enough trainsets at this time.
They really underestimated the demand.
Sometimes getting back federal money helps; but at other times strings are attached for highly questionable agendas. In the case of CATS, sanctions for providing for potential growth to minimize intitail costs is highly dubious with the possibility of future needs being much more costly to meet. My daddy would say this was being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
One can only hope that future federal administrations are more enlightened.
Phorbe: The underestimation that occurred in Charlotte show that there needs to be co-ordination nationwide of all equipment to be built to the same specifications. Then if one agency is under utilized then one who needs additional equipment can borrow the excess equipment. Does anyone know if any systems have excess equipment? I remember Salt Lake City borrowed units from somewhere elses (don't remember from whom) for the olympic games. They did keep units segregated from SLC's units. Has anyone at CATS looked into borrowing equipment?
They borrowed cars from Dallas and returned them in the first-class condition they received them. They ran in separate trains, but without segregation as to time or routes.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/336339.html
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/354286.html
If you build it they will come.
Beware misleading statistics.
Article says ridership on the connecting buses is up Dec 2007, first full month of route changes, to Oct 2008. I feel this statistic is meaningless. Far more signifigant would be bus ridership comparisons for all routes serving the area before and after reconfigured for light rail.
If there were bus routes which used to duplicate the light rail route which are now configured to feed the light rail, how did their ridership change?
Article says "No. 42 Carowinds, from the South Point Business Park near Carowinds to the I-485/South Boulevard stop: 412 then, 3,589 last month."
If before light rail there was a bus service from Carowinds to downtown Charlotte which used to carry 4,000 passengers, and the 42 replaced some of its service then I'd have to say that the overall system lost some portion of the 4,000-3,589 passengers, some of whom now drive to I-485/South Boulevard, some of whom now drive all the way to downtown.
And Dec 2007 the deficit was far worse, it's only getting close to recovering in this No. 42 hypothetical scenario.
I hope the actual statistic is more favorable for transit, I just hate articles that provide meaningless statistics like this one.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
The routes quoted in the article did not exist before the light rail opened. They are short, frequent, neighborhood loops designed to transport people to and from the light rail stops. A few routes were also discontinued, replaced by the new routes combined with light rail.
That said, the number of people riding CATS buses is up, system wide. The statistics, while focused on the light rail, because the article is ABOUT the light rail, are not meaningless. The park and ride by Carowinds used to be served by an express bus to city center. It takes more than 40 minutes to get from there to city center on I-77 during rush hour and it only ran during rush hour. Every bus in CATS inventory couldn't have moved 1,700 people from there to city center. Most of the increase are people who couldn't find parking at the I-485 light rail stop. They used to drive I-77 all the way. The Blue Line should be extended through Fort Mill to Rock Hill.
Phoebe Vet
Unless the statistics include what happened to the passengers on the routes that were discontinued I still feel they're meaningless.
You mention Carowinds used to be served by an express bus to city center. It takes more than 40 minutes to get from there to city center on I-77 during rush hour and it only ran during rush hour
but you don't say how many people used to ride that express bus, or how long it takes now via the 42 connecting to the light rail.
Every bus in CATS inventory couldn't have moved 1,700 people from there to city center.
If this is true then it's great news for light rail, since apparently light rail and the 42 feeder bus carry far more than 1,700 people, presumably all the way from there to city center.
I'm sorry. I guess I don't understand your point.
The combination of feeder buses and light rail is transporting many times the number of people that the former South corridor buses used to. I'm sure some of them used to take the bus all the way, but the buses were not transporting anywhere near the volume that are using the light rail now.
I don't understand why you think the statistics are misleading. No one is claiming that every passenger is new to the system. The claim is that the addition of the light rail has greatly increased the number of people using the system.
I think the statistics are misleading because they show only the increase of bus passengers on those routes after light rail started, but as you say The claim is that the addition of the light rail has greatly increased the number of people using the system.
That's like saying "My new job is a success, I started at $10 an hour, now I'm making $15 an hour" without mentioning how much money you made in your old job. If you were making $20 an hour in your old job then I'd have to conclude your new job is not a success.
Likewise just saying feeder buses to the light rail have dramatically increased their passengers does not say anything about if light rail is a success since you're not mentioning what the passenger loads were before light rail.
Or how about this : light rail ridership declined by 10%, the city population declined by 20%. There are some who would declare just the 10% light rail decline as sign of a light rail problem, there are others who would declare it a success, light rail now carries a larger percentage of the population.
From this morning's paper:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/362397.html
Perfect Example of not enough parking:
The Park n Ride in Mt. Arlington NJ opened only a year ago. Every day, on my way to school, the bus goes past it on Route 80. Every day, EVERY SINGLE PARKING SPACE is occupied. In a year (it opened last January IIRC) it has become so popular that there is nowhere to park at the station. They absolutely need a parking garage or something.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
Are you talking about a parking lot at the Mt. Arlington train station? What was there before it opened?
A parking lot. With a bus stop. That didn't get nearly as much use as is does now with the train station.
Forgive my ignorance, but are you saying that Mt. Arlington did not have a train station before a year ago, and did they get the new parking lot around the same time they got the train station?
Thanks for the article, P.V.! - a.s.
The train station opened last January. The park n ride was previously only a bus stop. I believe that it is the same parking lot, although they may have expanded it slightly.
And BTW, there were no spots left when we passed at 7:13 this morning.
Phoebe Vet A large part of the cost of transportation systems is the cost of selling, the fare evidence, verifying and enforcing the payment of the fare, collecting, protecting, and accounting for the collected fares, etc. I often wonder what the difference in cost per rider would be if a tax on city parking spaces was implimented and used to fund a totally free extensive mass transit system.
A large part of the cost of transportation systems is the cost of selling, the fare evidence, verifying and enforcing the payment of the fare, collecting, protecting, and accounting for the collected fares, etc. I often wonder what the difference in cost per rider would be if a tax on city parking spaces was implimented and used to fund a totally free extensive mass transit system.
Out here in San Francisco, we have spare the air days,when transit is free for a day. Yes, we get about ten percent more riders but we encountered another problem. Since the system is free, lots of troublemakers ride - people who harass the rest of the riders, snatch purses, panhandle, sell candy, etc. And they tend to do things that delay the trains, like block the doors, ride on the roof, or between cars (on the outside, walking between cars inside is allowed), or hang on the grab irons and ride outside or on the rear. So, now we open it up until Noon, or so, then it is a pay system.
About half our expenses are covered by fares, the other half is from sales tax (3/4 %) and property tax (like $50 per house). 10 percent comes from ads and renting the right of way (to communications companies, for cables and fiber optic).
Half our stations are suburban (BART is a combination subway and commuter railroad) and most fill up by 8 AM. As a result, the huge capital investment is lightly used from 8 to Noon. There are lots of park and ride spaces within a couple of miles of many stations, but here's the challenge. If you drive to a lot at 9 AM and park you can get a bus to the train station. But, when your 10 to 6 job ends, and you get back to your station at 7 or 8 (or 10 if you go out after work) the buses are no longer running. We need a method of getting to those lots after 6 PM.
One method is to have a shuttle make the rounds of all the lots near a particular station. Generally, a trip that covers half a dozen lots, each within 2 miles of the station, would take about 20 minutes. So, one shuttle could meet every other train (15 minute schedule). Cost is not a big deal, as long as it was around 2 or 3 bucks.
Another option are the cabs. I've been in cities where I had something I had to carry 2 blocks, so I took a cab. 4 bucks - 2 for the flag drop, and about a buck a block. So I gave the cabbie six bucks. He spent more time writing down his trip than actually doing it! The cabbies at the suburban stations are looking for the 25 buck trips (10 miles), but if they had a steady stream of 5 buck vouchers, going to the lots, they would be happy. With pretax dollars and subsidies, these vouchers would cost the rider about 2 bucks, and the cabby would have a few dozen at the end of the night - well worth his while. We already have "work late" vouchers (I think one is limited to five a year), so the system is in place. Most of us have no great aversion to short bus rides - flying into an airport usually involves either a shuttle to the hotel, or a shuttle to the rental car lot. What most people want to avoid is an hour-long bus ride, when they could be on a train, doing something semi productive or entertaining.
For BART, low cost satellite lots would give us a 20 percent ridership boost.
Fundamentally, we are an automotive society. There is a minimum level of education that parents want for their kids and they are going to move far enough out to get that level. That means commuting involves a short car trip, for most suburban riders. If you are in the transit business, you are in the parking business.
Phoebe: The news wire announced that AMT (Montreal) is working to add 10,000 parking spaces. For a commuter rail system that is not that large then it is a giant step to having enough parking there.
al-in-chgo Thanks for the article, P.V.! - a.s.
Pheobe,
You were fast to get this up today, but it semed out of the blue- perhaps you should have stated it was from the Monthly Service Report for Charlotte Area Transit System, CATS. Most people here are not going to know about our neighborhood circulators, STS service, etc. LINX and regular bus service totals looked good though, even with lower gas costs, we were still up.
--RSM AKA-Matthewsaggie
That is true. I put it up there, only for the benefit of those people in here who keep insisting that the success of the system is just because of the high gas prices and that the lower gas prices we have been experiencing for the last few months would result in big declines.
The layoffs that are beginning by both big banks will probably have an adverse impact in the near future, though.
gardendance
Re: Kiss and Ride Lots Never enough kissing....
Apparently there is a suburb of London that has had quite enough of kissing. I saw on TV where the city fathers put a "No Kissing" sign at that suburb's railway station: yup, conventional Euro-pictogram of a man's profile, a woman's in curlers, and the red line slashing through. Ironically, here in the USA we call drop-off zones at RT or heavy-rail "kiss-and-ride," or at least we used to. - a.s.
al-in-chgo gardendance Re: Kiss and Ride Lots Never enough kissing.... Apparently there is a suburb of London that has had quite enough of kissing. I saw on TV where the city fathers put a "No Kissing" sign at that suburb's railway station: yup, conventional Euro-pictogram of a man's profile, a woman's in curlers, and the red line slashing through. Ironically, here in the USA we call drop-off zones at RT or heavy-rail "kiss-and-ride," or at least we used to. - a.s.
The original article is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/61464.stm
It is a town in northen England, but the original signs came from Chicago.
From a UK perspective the discussion on station parking etc. is interesting. London commuters have no real option but the train, so the fares are high and so are charges to park at the stations where the car parks are often full, particularly at main stations. A return from my local station to London (about 40 miles out) is £25.90 plus about £8 to park which adds up to about $50. There are reductions for monthly tickets but it is a significant cost to which there is no viable alternative.
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