Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phorbe: The underestimation that occurred in Charlotte show that there needs to be co-ordination nationwide of all equipment to be built to the same specifications. Then if one agency is under utilized then one who needs additional equipment can borrow the excess equipment. Does anyone know if any systems have excess equipment? I remember Salt Lake City borrowed units from somewhere elses (don't remember from whom) for the olympic games. They did keep units segregated from SLC's units. Has anyone at CATS looked into borrowing equipment?
Sometimes getting back federal money helps; but at other times strings are attached for highly questionable agendas. In the case of CATS, sanctions for providing for potential growth to minimize intitail costs is highly dubious with the possibility of future needs being much more costly to meet. My daddy would say this was being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
One can only hope that future federal administrations are more enlightened.
Actually, it's an elementary school.
They always wanted 300 foot platforms. It was the Feds who balked. The next project, which is to extend the Blue Line another 11 miles to UNCC they are again begging for 300 foot platforms, and are looking for the money to extend the existing platforms. They are also considering 6 minute spacing instead of 7 1/2 during rush hour, but they don't have enough trainsets at this time.
They really underestimated the demand.
Phoebe: thanks for all the information. It appears that car capacity is limiting and other than trying to make quick turns at the end points there is no way to increase number of trains and reduce headway. It really is a shame that three unit or four unit platforms were not planned for even though not built. I hope all of learn this lesson and when or if there are plans in your area that this is brought up at all public hearings. Also the ability to build up the parking garages in the future has to be planned. The locating of the college's recreation area on top of the garage was a very smart idea.
Blue streak:
Each trainset is 3 pieces permanently fastened together.
There are two identical "front pieces" facing in opposite directions with a small section in between. The black joints are articulated.
The set is 90 feet long and seats 68 with a total capacity somewhere around 230.
A double set is two of those sets joined by a coupler.
CATS wanted to be able to run triples, but the Feds were not convinced that much capacity was needed and so required the platforms to be shortened to 200 feet as a contingency of participation in the funding.
This is one of the over street platforms.
CATS has 16 of those three piece sets, and four more ordered.
I'm sure some of the parking at Arrowood and Sharon Rd are overflow from I-485, because there is an electronic sign next to the road at I-485 that tells people when the ramp is full and directs them to those other two lots.
It's all double track, and while it shares right of way with Norfolk & Southern in some areas, is does not share track. The railroad crossing gates in the second picture are for the N&S track which is at grade level.
Phoebe: 16 - do you mean 16 units with two placed together for a train? Also I was wondering if all track was double track?
Another question does it appear that the filling up of Arrowwood and sharon road is overflow from the I-485 parking deck? Its been so long since I was in Charlotte that I can not remember the lay out of streets.
16 Siemens Avanto S70 low floor tram trainsets. 4 more have been ordered but will not be delivered for at least a year.
There is always one sitting at the I-485 stop. One pulls in a couple of minutes before the other pulls out. Sometimes 1 or 2 more are parked there so they can be quickly doubled up for rush hour. The operator exits the trainset there. They have an employees only building there. The maint facility is about in the middle of the curren Blue Line, just north of the Scaleybark stop.
The light rail crosses, but does not run in the street so far. The next segment will. So far all grade level conflicts are standard railroad crossings with gates that drop as the train approaches.
I cannot answer your signal or power questions. I am not associated with CATS.
Phoebe: Thanks now some more questions.
First: How many cars does CATS have? It appears that it takes 8 trainsets to cover the schedule as published.
Second: That figure is based on a 5 minute turn but what is the scheduled layover times at each end?
Third: Does the same operator stay on the equipment or is there extra operators to make a speedy turn if arriving late?
Fourth: Are the trains given traffic light priority to speed them through town? The systems I have ridden that have partial priority seem to really slow down at non priority locations.
Fifth: Are there any ROW or other constraints for 5 minute headways to be implemented? (assuming enough cars available). What is the minimum headway built into the signal system? Does the power system now have enough capacity to handle these additional trips?
Brochure:
http://publications.ingagepublication.com/charlottelightrail/
Map:
http://www.charmeck.org/NR/rdonlyres/e3evk2t5giogrjxuovybhjrrvhydul4hlof5qg4h2hwntlgqh434wbu4rjuskeazfh5o32j6hkppxz7qhyff7owan5b/2030LYNXMap2242X3000.gif
Bus Integration:
http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/Rapid+Transit+Planning/Bus+Rail+Integration.html
I-485/South Blvd is a deck that has 1160 parking spaces that is full in early AM. They are in the process of paving and leasing a couple hundred more spaces.
Arrowood and Sharon Road are flat lots that are near saturation.
Many of the stations are up in the air at, or next to, road overpasses. They will probably be tough to expand, but it is being looked into.
MatthewsAggie can answer your questions better than I, he is actually involved in the project.
Phoebe: Several questions.
First: Is there an online source for a map of CATS and its future plans?
Second: Using that map what are the overloaded parking stops and how badly overloaded?
Third: How hard and expensive is it going to be to lengthen the two car stops to three or four?
Fourth: How soon are the additional cars going to be delivered?
Fifth: Has CATS hired extra car maintenance porsonel to speed out of service cars back into service both day and night?
Your plan looks good on paper, but our most overwhelmed park and ride is already a parking ramp.
We don't really need more parking spaces, we need the light rail to go farther,
Aatually the way to solve the parking problem takes several steps.
First: line up as much land a possible at each station location. Clear the land closest to the entrances and lay out the parking lot. The land that is not needed can be leased out on a short term basis to support operations.
Second: Engineer the parking for eventual building of a multi story parking building and/or retail-appartment buildings above.
Third: If parking becomes overloaded then a modular approach to building parking spaces + using land that was not initially anticipated for the additional parking. There is no reason that if the foundation is already in place that prestressed concrete parking garages could be built in 6 months.
My theory is that planners often underestimate the possible use of the transit system. In the NY metropolitan area on all lines of all operators most of the park and rides get filled up sooner in their lives than expected. Take Southeast, NY, end of electric service on the MNRR's Harlem Line, almost 60 miles from GCT....it was filled to capacity on the day it opened and has been expanded and is still overflowing...and we're talking over a thousand daily patrons!!!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
“Things of quality have no fear of time.”
CARPOOL? You know like those ride share boards at college? Every Station could have one.
My local college has 2 maps one of the USA and one regional map...There are index cards that one fills out blue for rides wanted and pink for rides offered.
Phoebe Vet:
OK, now you sound more like a friend ...
It is well known that one person may see a certain benefit to something while another sees a very different benefit. It would be ideal if everyone saw Federal money as something to benefit the carriage of people. Unfortunately, some see it as a way to increase political clout. Even others see Federal money as a way to enhance the local economy through money multiplication (by banks), and could care less about the carriage of people. Even others say that no public money should be used at all for transit. The political system is a strange beast at best.
Consider Metrolink in Southern California. The below photo depicts a Metrolink train in push mode a few miles west of Fontana. It is racing westward to Los Angeles.
Metrolink is a 1992 public outfit of the 1991 formed Southern California Regional Rail Authority (SCRRA), a joint powers creation involving five counties. Here again, with such a diverse beast, there is no uniform perspective. It is not as with the saying, "America is a super great nation." Virtually everyone in America would jump on THAT thought bandwagon. But Metrolink has officials that come and go who have various perspectives, passions, and objectives. Some are political appointees.
Just recently I dropped by the Metrolink station in San Bernardino, thinking maybe I would take a ride somewhere soon for the fun of it. Unfortunately, there were NO parking spaces anywhere, and it was relatively early in the day. Here was someone with money in hand that got a bad impression, and that impression will linger and linger now for months to come. Look, it even got mentioned herein.
Overall, Phoebe Vet, you are probably right that parking problems are caused by attempts at cost containment. I find it strange, though, that parking problems are so widespread. But, if one perceives that political tug of wars and cross objectives proliferate everywhere, then they are capable of seeing that compromises upon compromises ultimately have impossible consequences that result, like insufficient parking. To fix the result of such requires a great amount of time and money, as well as arm bending and twisting of politicians who probably could care less about transit, but ARE sensitive to people when they are massed together. But finding PEOPLE willing to mass together about transit is a difficult proposition.
As far as botching estimates, I say something is very wrong with the calculative process. But, calculating the future is like picking the winning lottery numbers. Someone obviously wins, but the majority loses. Maybe that is what transit planning is, a big lottery game. Seriously, though, one would think by now all the great minds involved would have predicting ridership down to a science. Why aren't transit planners like life insurance mortality actuaries? Actuaries know exactly how many people will die. But, they just don't know WHO will.
The irony in conflicting opinions and objectives is that such is the American way, where everyone through free speech is free to have and promote their own opinion and objectives. Unfortunately, the dark side of this is that things don't get done very fast, most pointedly for our discussion, is that more parking spaces take forever to come by. And, because transit is NOT a lucrative proposition, it is super unlikely that a great patriot will rise up and rally all America to solve the problem of which we've been dealing with.
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
gardendance wrote: Phoebe Vet wrote: I prefer the plan CATS has chosen. They are making the lots bigger.I also hope they explored the feeder bus system, expanding and or making it more efficient. Charlotte, Dallas and elsewhere, how convenient, economical, etc... is the bus to rail transfer? For example, I've seen lots of places where the kiss and ride drop off is right at the station entrance, but the bus drop off is many car lengths away. Even worse, sometimes the bus drops off, then drives to the far end of the parking lot to layover, returning to pickup. One possible explanation is to reduce fumes and noise at the station entrance if they need to keep the engine running to maintain intside heating or cooling, but that wears a bit thin. If the outside temperature's that extreme I'd prefer to be inside the bus napping and enjoy the fruits of the air conditioning, instead of walking extra or waiting curbside in the elements.This thread's been concentrating on new systems. There are many grandaddy operations. For example Septa's 69th St subway terminal does not have very much parking, but instead has 3 light rail and a whole mess of bus feeders. A big difference of course could be that these suburbs grew up around public transit, so there might be fewer cul-de-sac houses a long hike from the bus stop.But it's also not necessarily true that once somebody gets into their car that they'll always drive all the way to work, even if there's no light rail. I lived for the past 20 years in Philadelphia's Fairmount-Art Museum neighborhood, a mile or 2 from city hall and the center of town. I knew quite a few folks who took advantage of free on street parking who would then take the bus the rest of the way to work. And since they were boarding near the center city end of the bus route they tended to have to stand. Of course outbound they had the same chance of getting a seat as a local person, but then they would vacate the seat sooner.I think Samantha's complaint about out-of-towners taking up highly subsidized seats in Dallas without paying their fare share in taxes started me on this tangent about different parking rates for taxpaying locals vs freeriding outsiders. So does anybody know if it's free to park in Dallas's lots?And Samantha, do you think Dallas would be better off if those out-of-towners drove all the way instead of parking and taking the light rail?
Phoebe Vet wrote: I prefer the plan CATS has chosen. They are making the lots bigger.
I prefer the plan CATS has chosen. They are making the lots bigger.
I also hope they explored the feeder bus system, expanding and or making it more efficient. Charlotte, Dallas and elsewhere, how convenient, economical, etc... is the bus to rail transfer? For example, I've seen lots of places where the kiss and ride drop off is right at the station entrance, but the bus drop off is many car lengths away. Even worse, sometimes the bus drops off, then drives to the far end of the parking lot to layover, returning to pickup. One possible explanation is to reduce fumes and noise at the station entrance if they need to keep the engine running to maintain intside heating or cooling, but that wears a bit thin. If the outside temperature's that extreme I'd prefer to be inside the bus napping and enjoy the fruits of the air conditioning, instead of walking extra or waiting curbside in the elements.
This thread's been concentrating on new systems. There are many grandaddy operations. For example Septa's 69th St subway terminal does not have very much parking, but instead has 3 light rail and a whole mess of bus feeders. A big difference of course could be that these suburbs grew up around public transit, so there might be fewer cul-de-sac houses a long hike from the bus stop.
But it's also not necessarily true that once somebody gets into their car that they'll always drive all the way to work, even if there's no light rail. I lived for the past 20 years in Philadelphia's Fairmount-Art Museum neighborhood, a mile or 2 from city hall and the center of town. I knew quite a few folks who took advantage of free on street parking who would then take the bus the rest of the way to work. And since they were boarding near the center city end of the bus route they tended to have to stand. Of course outbound they had the same chance of getting a seat as a local person, but then they would vacate the seat sooner.
I think Samantha's complaint about out-of-towners taking up highly subsidized seats in Dallas without paying their fare share in taxes started me on this tangent about different parking rates for taxpaying locals vs freeriding outsiders. So does anybody know if it's free to park in Dallas's lots?
And Samantha, do you think Dallas would be better off if those out-of-towners drove all the way instead of parking and taking the light rail?
Parking for DART's light rail trains, where it is provided, as well as the Trinity Railway Express, is free. The DART Board requested a study to determine the feasibility of implementing a parking fee at the DART and TRE lots as a way to pay to expand them. As far as I know the study has not been completed.
The primary purpose of my post was to show one of the consequences of a highly subsidized system that draws extensively on a regional tax base to support it. People outside the taxing district can use the system at the expense of the people who live inside the taxing district and help tote the note.
I don't advocate keeping out-of-towners off the trains.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
Phoebe Vet wrote: Now if you want to make my 10 year old granddaughter's day tell me where I can get an HO model of that S-70 low floor tram. We already have a subway on the layout and she is absolutely in love with the light rail. She begs to go somewhere on it constantly. I have found Seimens models, but not the S-70
I have found Seimens models, but not the S-70
Check out these links:
http://www.saarbahn.de/aktuelles/modelle/index.php?subcat=modelle
http://www.halling.at/modelleisenbahnen/index.php?g=Saarbahn
The center section looks wrong (too long), but the ends look close for an approximation of the S70.
What do you think? Does it need to be a precise model, or will a "stand in" model work?
Paul F.
K.P.:
I am not trying to be contrary, I truly do not follow your line of logic.
I believe that the parking problems are caused by attempts at cost containment combined with a genuine good faith underestimation of the number of potential riders.
I believe the desparate need to move people in our ever more densly populated urban centers is the sole motivation for building mass transit systems. Every large city is struggling with gridlock. Just adding a lane or two to the main roads is only part of the solution. All those extra cars also wind up on the city center streets and need a place to park. When you widen a road, bridges need to be rebuilt, and often land must be aquired and structures moved or removed. It is not just a matter of placing some concrete.
Then there are the air quality issues that more traffic brings.
If there are cross purposes among the State and/or Federal politicians who are supplying money, such as pushing specific contractors, brands, or systems, that that is a separate issue. An example would be the Federal push for BRT at the very time when we are trying to reduce our use of oil and our emmission of greenhouse gases. I would bet that there are political donations involved. But the Feds don't come to town and say "want to buy some buses"? They respond to requests for help funding mass transit by saying "we will give you more money or quicker money for buses than we will for rail".
The following two concepts where hoped to be tactfully reasoned out and elaborated on:
(1) The very widespread parking problem is caused by complicated matters difficult to identify and accept, and ...
(2) Multiple cross-objectives may be compounding the problem, and cross-objective situations so often are dangerous, especially where big money is in play.
Best wishes,
The park and ride lots and ramp in Charlotte are free. Just drive in and park. The cost would go up significantly if they had to install gates, hire a crew of attendants to check for permits, hire people to research residency and issue permits and account for any fees charged.
Add to that the fact that the gate slows down entering and exiting, and parking fees make taking the light rail less attractive and the entire exercise seems counter productive to me.
Phoebe Vet wrote:The cost of identifying the non residents, issuing permits both paid for the non residents and free for the local residents and enforcement of the use will probably exceed the amount of revenue generated.
The cost of identifying the non residents, issuing permits both paid for the non residents and free for the local residents and enforcement of the use will probably exceed the amount of revenue generated.
Depends. I agree if there's free parking, but If it's a paid lot with monthly permits then you're already issuing permits. Just offer the discounted permit if the buyer provides satisfactory residency proof, which in the case of a parking spot should reasonably be a driver's license. And if you're mailing the monthly permits you have added reassurance that at least the discounted passes get mailed to local addresses.
K. P. Harrier wrote: Phoebe Vet:Clearly, the purpose of Federal transit funds is to build, maintain, and operate mass transit systems. But, WHY would that big Federal check "certainly be welcomed," and by whom?K.P.
Clearly, the purpose of Federal transit funds is to build, maintain, and operate mass transit systems. But, WHY would that big Federal check "certainly be welcomed," and by whom?
Like Phoebe I'm also confused by your thinking. Yes in all transactions there may be some stakeholders whose priorities are different than others, for example the motorman's primary desire might be to get 3 hots and a cot, rather than to provide transportation. I expect that all things being equal that motorman would welcome a big federal check. Now if there were big strings attached to that check, for example if his federal taxes were to increase, he might think twice, but usually the thought is that the fed cheats the other guy and passes the savings off to you.
I'm sorry but I'm having trouble following this conversation.
What is the point you are trying to make?
matthewsaggie:
Thank you. That is encouraging, though I will miss Roadhouse. I like to eat there.
I do not see anything in this morning's Observer. At least not the on line version.
Harrier:
If I understand your inquiry, you seem to be implying that the transit authority exists for the primary purpose of supporting local banks.
Two of the largest banks in the country are headquartered in Charlotte. Most of the Sprint Cup teams, who sell sponsorships for 10s of millions of dollars per year per team, are here. We have a Federal Reserve Bank here. While that big federal check would certainly be welcomed, I doubt it would generate the euphoria which you seem to believe.
You sound like an intelligent and informed person. Tell me, hypothetically, if a transit agency received and deposited in a local bank a $50 million operating grant check, would the bank rejoice or prefer the transit agency went elsewhere?
Thanks.
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