daveklepper wrote:I still wonder if the situation today is the same as it was some 12-13 years ago regarding Amtrak between Newark and Penn Station, NYC.
daveklepper wrote:So having it an extra Newark - JC solves the problem.
daveklepper wrote:Somebody with employees timetables can check, but I suspect all eastbounds Penn Station NYC to Sunnyside Yard, sharing tracks with the Hell Gate Bridge scheduled passenger trains and an occasional LIRR one retrouted from the LIRR tracks, are run as extras.
I still wonder if the situation today is the same as it was some 12-13 years ago regarding Amtrak between Newark and Penn Station, NYC.
The Asa Packer could carry passengers and still run as an extra in the employees timetable. The PRR and LV would have every reason to do so. Here is why: Undoubtadly there is makeup time included in the schedule for arrival at Newark. But if the train meets no delays and arrives at Hunter Tower early, the PRR would probably not wish to just hold it there for time, but rather to fit it in most conveniently in the parade to Newark Station. And once there it has to unload and get out of town promptly to avoid tying up limited track space. And passenger trains, trains in general on the PRR, never left ahead of schedule. So having it an extra Newark - JC solves the problem.
Somebody with employees timetables can check, but I suspect all eastbounds Penn Station NYC to Sunnyside Yard, sharing tracks with the Hell Gate Bridge scheduled passenger trains and an occasional LIRR one retrouted from the LIRR tracks, are run as extras.
Let's see if the link works--
http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak/FareFinder?_tripType=OneWay&_origin=NYP&_depmonthyear=2008-02&_depday=20&_dephourmin=&_destination=Newark%2C+NJ+%28NWK%29&_retmonthyear=&_retday=&_rethourmin=&_adults=1&_children=0&_infants=0&_searchBy=schedule&x=23&y=8
I didn't try to actually buy a ticket, but anybody see any reason to think Amtrak won't sell me one? And if they sell me one they'll probably let me ride?
Might as well look at the PDF timetable for the NE Corridor, too. Lots of eastward trains shown "D" at Newark, lots of trains shown "L" (which receive passengers), and lots of trains with no apparent restiction. I didn't try to figure out if the eastward Acelas that receive passengers at Newark all continued to Boston-- maybe so. But numerous non-Acelas will apparently carry you from Newark to NY.
Asa Packer was a Lehigh Valley rail baron. Lived in what is now Jim Thrope, PA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asa_Packer
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
timz wrote: As you know, long-distance Amtraks are shown in the timetable as receive-only westbound at Newark and discharge-only eastbound. Maybe a few others as well-- but offhand I'm guessing you can board even Acelas at Newark and ride to NY. Don't recall any note to the contrary in old timetables, but I'll check.Forgot to mention the 6/39 Official Guide shows the Asa Packer running to Jersey City-- in other words it apparently wasn't just going there for servicing. It says "L.V.R.R. Communipaw" which certainly doesn't sound like Exchange Place, but according to the station index in the back LV's Jersey City station was same as PRR's.
As you know, long-distance Amtraks are shown in the timetable as receive-only westbound at Newark and discharge-only eastbound. Maybe a few others as well-- but offhand I'm guessing you can board even Acelas at Newark and ride to NY. Don't recall any note to the contrary in old timetables, but I'll check.
Forgot to mention the 6/39 Official Guide shows the Asa Packer running to Jersey City-- in other words it apparently wasn't just going there for servicing. It says "L.V.R.R. Communipaw" which certainly doesn't sound like Exchange Place, but according to the station index in the back LV's Jersey City station was same as PRR's.
You make an excellent point: there is nothing to physically retrain an intended passenger from stepping onto an Amtrak train at Newark (Penna.) and getting off at (NYC) Penn Station, or vice-versa. No physical barrier that might not accept a "wrong" ticket should that be the case, or no (as far as I know if) guard posted to look at people's tickets before they get access to the platform or the train itself. >I could be quite wrong about that and regardless, I would allow that there's probably a right to do so built into the security system in the wake of post 9/11 rules and regs.<
However, here in 2008, all Amtrak trains require reservations, the only exceptions being those on the Chicago - Milwaukee run (Hiawatha Service). Perhaps someone might want to spend nearly twice as much by taking Amtrak instead of NJT between the two stations (or more than two-and-a-half times as much with an off-peak RT). That would certainly limit the numbers of people down to the uninformed and the few who will spend a good deal more money for a relatively trivial savings in time. But is it even feasible?
My reading of the Amtrak System timetable is that if a NB passenger can only get off the train at Newark; he can't get on; and that same passenger SB on the return trip can't get off (depart train) at Newark if the train only permits getting on (receiving). If that is the case, then an Amtrak ticket clerk probably couldn't make reservation/print ticket between Newark Penn and NYC Penn alone; the computer would be programmed not to do it. (There might be a possibility for subterfuge; say, buying a ticket from Newark to New Haven, say, and getting off at Penn, but that's something only a very few people would even consider doing, a foamer like me desperate to squeeze in some more Amtrak-riding, perhaps.)
There are enough people who feel entirely opposite to this that I shd probably double-check, though.** If I am indeed flat wrong I would think that nonetheless relatively few people would chose to take Amtrak over NJT from the same terminal to the same destination, though I do understand that any such people, short of an actual count, cannot be ruled out as statistically insignificant.
As to the airport I don't see such a muddle: I do believe it's possible to ticket through from NYC/Penn to Newark airport. The exceptions would be the l-d overnight trains that aren't considered part of ordinary Amtrak NEC boarding policies: the Crescent and the Silver series come to mind. They pick up going south and drop off heading north.
** We have a lot of NEC riders on these boards: do any of you customarily take Amtrak from Newark to Penn Station or back?
___________________________
BTW: Who was Asa Packer, anyway ?
Amtrak NY-Newark? This is a change, I think. Can you check schedules of 12-13 years ago?
Or is it particular trains that I am thinking of, such as Metorliners, Acelas, and through trains to the west and south? This would be shown in the current schedules.
The mystery about the LV train terminating in Newark and running to Jersey City for servicing can be explained by the train running as an extra with white flags displayed above the smokebox. This would make sense, since it would permit the dispatcher to fit the train into a slot to do the least delay to trains carrying passengers.
daveklepper wrote: The gas or diesel car I referred to was the Flemington - Flemington Junction shuttle that met all three of the through trains.
In 1939 the gas-electric made ten weekday round trips betw Flemington and Flemington Jct-- so it didn't have time to run into Jersey City. They had to have another car for that.
daveklepper wrote: You are correct that New Jersey Transit is the only legal passenger carrier between Penn Staiton Newark and Penn Station, New York.
Amtrak's web site lists fares Newark to NY Penn. No indication that they won't carry you.
The Lehigh Valley's Asa Packer is a mystery. It started in 1939, two daily-exc-Sunday round trips between Mauch Chunk and ... someplace ... because for the first year or two it didn't run to NY Penn like the other LV trains. There is a pic in that red-dust-jacket LV book of its 4-6-2 in Newark Penn-- the mystery is, where did it come from? Jersey City somewhere, but where? And if it runs Jersey City to Newark Penn it has to be on the PRR for at least part of that distance, but the PRR employee TT doesn't show it running east of Newark.
The gas or diesel car I referred to was the Flemington - Flemington Junction shuttle that met all three of the through trains. I had forgotton the name "Flemington", but I am certain that is the one I remember. Conceivably, in 1939, it ran a trip into Newark for both rush hours.
You are correct that New Jersey Transit is the only legal passenger carrier between Penn Staiton Newark and Penn Station, New York. Amtrak stations ushers at the stair entrances in both stations to check tickets, and will bar entry to the platform if you have an NJT NY-Newark ticket. (Of course, railfans learn ways around this, but there is the possibility of being "caught" in any case.)
On one occasion while doing sound system work for PATH, I was very very late for a meeting with PATH, NJT, and Amtrak people at the Newark station, since a business apointment in NYC lasted longer than expected. I used my savvy (bypassing the usher and the "legal stair") to get on the first train out, which was Amtrak, and the conductor listened to my little tail of woe and let me ride ---for free!
timz wrote: Lehigh Valley had that gas-car-or-whatever-it-was local from South Plainfield, at the end-- maybe from Flemington Jct earlier-- but I don't think it ran to PRR Newark. Stayed on the LV to Jersey City, didn't it? al-in-chgo wrote:(OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??).I'm guessing Metroliners and Comets and Arrows and M3s and M7s and MP54s are/were all an even ten feet wide at floor level. Where the door is on the carbody will affect the gap, and of course a door at the middle of an 85-ft car will have a maximum gap.
Lehigh Valley had that gas-car-or-whatever-it-was local from South Plainfield, at the end-- maybe from Flemington Jct earlier-- but I don't think it ran to PRR Newark. Stayed on the LV to Jersey City, didn't it?
al-in-chgo wrote:(OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??).
Point well taken! - a. s.
daveklepper wrote: I am pretty sure the LV train ran through to Penn Station, and there can be errors in timetables. If it did not, and if it really discharged all its passengers at Newark, then it must have run light to the Pennsy's Exchange Place JC terminal (and probably a passenger could talk his way into riding if he or she really cared.) This would make sense if it did not change engines at Hunter Tower and ran with a steam locomotive to Newark. The LV never advertized a connection to Jersey City, did not have a ticket office either at Exchange Place or at Hudson Terminal, which the Pennsylvania did have, although it did mention the PRR-H&M connecting service at Newark in its timetables, just as Amtrak and NJT do today. The LV did have its own ticket window at Pennsylvania Station, NY.Turning to "the gap." In the New York area there were many locations where narrow equipment stopped at stations with high platforms for full-width cars. The greatest number were on the BMT system, where open-platform "gate-car" ("BU") trains shared tracks with steel subway cars and/or with extensions side-sill "C-Type" rebuilt elevated cars. This even included the Park Row, Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge terminal! Grant Avenue Station on Liberty Avenue is one station that saw open-platform BU's, the rebuilt C's, with sliding doors, and extension side-sills, and the steel lightweight articulated "multis". Jamaica Avenue, the Culver Line, the last few stations on the West End LIne, the Stillwell Avenue terminal at Coney Island, all were examples at one time or another. Also, the first LIRR mu's were narrow, basically the same as the first IRT steel cars with traps and steps and MCB couplers added. These ran on the Atlantic Avenue Branch to Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn for many years in Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway service. All these stations were also served by standard width-trains.What follows is another correction. The three trains I knew on the Lehigh were the Black Diamond, the John Wilkes, and the Asher Packer. These were the three through trains to Buffalo, and I guess all three had a CN-GT connection to Toronto and Chicago, but I cannot claim any certainty on that. But not far from Newark and Hunter Tower and Albene was a stop with "Junction" in its name, and all three trains each way were met by a doodlebug, a gas-electric or diesel-electric old-style rail car, for a trip to and from the named town or city. Possibly in 1939 or even later, that car made a morning trip to Newark and simply reversed and ran back to the town, repeating the same process for commuters in the evening. Many gas-electric and deisel-electri railcars could do this as easy as an electric mu. The hint in the data is that the LV train is not named, whereas the PRR long distance trains are called out by name, and if the LV train were one of the through trains, possibly its name would show up on the list?Also, my memory on the "discharge-only" character of some of the Newark stops may be clouded by what I observed later than 1939, particularly during WWII when trains were much more crowded, and possibly my memory is correct for this later period.It would be of interest to compare 1939 with today during the same two hours at Newark. Bet there are lot, lot more commuter trains and fewer long distance.
I am pretty sure the LV train ran through to Penn Station, and there can be errors in timetables. If it did not, and if it really discharged all its passengers at Newark, then it must have run light to the Pennsy's Exchange Place JC terminal (and probably a passenger could talk his way into riding if he or she really cared.) This would make sense if it did not change engines at Hunter Tower and ran with a steam locomotive to Newark. The LV never advertized a connection to Jersey City, did not have a ticket office either at Exchange Place or at Hudson Terminal, which the Pennsylvania did have, although it did mention the PRR-H&M connecting service at Newark in its timetables, just as Amtrak and NJT do today. The LV did have its own ticket window at Pennsylvania Station, NY.
Turning to "the gap." In the New York area there were many locations where narrow equipment stopped at stations with high platforms for full-width cars. The greatest number were on the BMT system, where open-platform "gate-car" ("BU") trains shared tracks with steel subway cars and/or with extensions side-sill "C-Type" rebuilt elevated cars. This even included the Park Row, Manhattan, Brooklyn Bridge terminal! Grant Avenue Station on Liberty Avenue is one station that saw open-platform BU's, the rebuilt C's, with sliding doors, and extension side-sills, and the steel lightweight articulated "multis". Jamaica Avenue, the Culver Line, the last few stations on the West End LIne, the Stillwell Avenue terminal at Coney Island, all were examples at one time or another. Also, the first LIRR mu's were narrow, basically the same as the first IRT steel cars with traps and steps and MCB couplers added. These ran on the Atlantic Avenue Branch to Flatbush Avenue terminal in Brooklyn for many years in Rockaway Park and Far Rockaway service. All these stations were also served by standard width-trains.
What follows is another correction. The three trains I knew on the Lehigh were the Black Diamond, the John Wilkes, and the Asher Packer. These were the three through trains to Buffalo, and I guess all three had a CN-GT connection to Toronto and Chicago, but I cannot claim any certainty on that. But not far from Newark and Hunter Tower and Albene was a stop with "Junction" in its name, and all three trains each way were met by a doodlebug, a gas-electric or diesel-electric old-style rail car, for a trip to and from the named town or city. Possibly in 1939 or even later, that car made a morning trip to Newark and simply reversed and ran back to the town, repeating the same process for commuters in the evening. Many gas-electric and deisel-electri railcars could do this as easy as an electric mu. The hint in the data is that the LV train is not named, whereas the PRR long distance trains are called out by name, and if the LV train were one of the through trains, possibly its name would show up on the list?
Also, my memory on the "discharge-only" character of some of the Newark stops may be clouded by what I observed later than 1939, particularly during WWII when trains were much more crowded, and possibly my memory is correct for this later period.
It would be of interest to compare 1939 with today during the same two hours at Newark. Bet there are lot, lot more commuter trains and fewer long distance.
Along the lines of this, last summer I encountered online a very readable article about the Long Island Rail Road's ongoing attempts to "narrow the gap" between its passenger platforms (esp. the curvy ones, such as Syosset Station) and the newer type of trains. (OT but why is it that, for example, Metroliner shells create such a gap when the older stuff didn't, assuming it didn't??). Got to the site thru mta and then lirr. By definition the piece did not discuss the NY subway or anything NJT or Metra-North, just LIRR, but I found it quite engaging.
This may be OT and if it is, I can start a new thread: Since you've got the number of trains into and out of pretty well pegged, I'm curious to know as to how much weekday traffic there was from Penn Sta/Newark into Penn Sta/Manhattan in 1939 -- was it more, less, or about the same as today, or for whatever year we have solid figures? To my knowledge Amtrak does not allow travel between these two stations as a mutual origin or destination (gotta be a better way to say that!), and this IMHO would make Amtrak traffic easily excludable from the category of commuter traffic between the Newark Penn Station to NYC's. Wouldn't that then leave by default today's NJT as the only commuter rail carrier between these two destinations? (Not counting PATH, I guess.) - a.s.
daveklepper wrote:I don't think you will find any eastbound passenger rush hour trains terminating at Newark Penn Station in 1939.
Or in any other year AFAIK until they closed Jersey City in 11/61. That one NY&LB diesel train did terminate at Newark for ... a year or two? after that.
(A second look reveals that the LV train that I showed leaving at 8:50 was actually terminating at Newark. Wonder whether it had changed engines? Wonder where it parked after Newark? If it's not going to NY, why not terminate back at the LV Newark station?)
daveklepper wrote:Also, a public 1939 Newark - Penn timetable would show fewer trains than we have counted.
(But yeah, we like to use the employee timetable so we don't have to worry about some mail/express train that didn't appear in any public TT.)
daveklepper wrote:Because none of the through trains from west of Harrisburg picked up passengers. Neither did any Washington - NY trains or Clockers. Their stops at Newark were discharge only. Trains to Boston or other New England points picked up passenger only going to New Haven RR points or father north, with the single exception of the overnight Federal Express. Most New York and Long Branch (Jersey Shore) trains did not pick up passengers for Jersey City or Penn Station, whichever terminal they used.
I'll check, but as I recall the timetable only showed a few trains as discharge-only at Newark. Far as I can see from the timetable even the Crescent carried shorts-- it was all-Pullman south of Washington but had coaches Washington-NY.
(According to the empl TT the Trail Blazer, Pittsburgher, Spirit of St Louis and all the LV trains were discharge-only at Newark-- no others between 0700 and 0900.)
Hey, you are right and I apologize. I was obviously looking at the two hour, not one hour period. And I may have been wrong about seeing wire over the Harrison platform tracks, but my memory says I did see that. However,:
Counting all Jersey Shore and Suburban Station and origination points Trenton and closer, more commuter trains ran to JC than to Penn. That is counting the two-hour period.
I am certain the original clearances at the Harrison high-level platforms were for normal width railroad equpment, including freight cars, and not the narrower through-service PRR-H&M cars. The gap was narrowed after PATH bought the entire line.
I don't think you will find any eastbound passenger rush hour trains terminating at Newark Penn Station in 1939. There were no steam locomotive service facilities available, no yard, and I am fairly certain all ran through either to JC or Penn. Including the MU's. The Yard and diesel servicing facililties now used were built for the Aldene plan when trains to CNJ's Jersey City Terminal, from the Shore, from the Raritan Valley, and from West Trenton with one through from Reading Terminal Phila, were all shifted to terminate in Newark. Now, with the connections at Kearney, some of thse trains have been extended to Hoboken.
Also, a public 1939 Newark - Penn timetable would show fewer trains than we have counted. Because none of the through trains from west of Harrisburg picked up passengers. Neither did any Washington - NY trains or Clockers. Their stops at Newark were discharge only. Trains to Boston or other New England points picked up passenger only going to New Haven RR points or father north, with the single exception of the overnight Federal Express. Most New York and Long Branch (Jersey Shore) trains did not pick up passengers for Jersey City or Penn Station, whichever terminal they used.
daveklepper wrote:Please go to the classic trains forum and pull up the Newark 1939 thread. You will then get the complete story.
That thread
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1349760/ShowPost.aspx
shows what I said-- between 0700 and 0800 on weekdays, eight trains leaving Newark for NY Penn, and fourteen to Jersey City, including the ten H&M. Anyone who's interested can count them for himself.
You obviously are not looking at a complete timetable. Please go to the classic trains forum and pull up the Newark 1939 thread. You will then get the complete story.
Possibly the timetable you have doesn't show trains starting at New Brunzwick or Trenton or Perth Amboy. Or is missing NY&LB trains. Or maybe you are looking at a Sunday timetable?
In any case, your timetable IS MISSING A LOT OF TRAINS!
The 9/39 timetable shows a total of eight departures from Newark to NY Penn between 7 AM and 8 AM. To Jersey City it shows the ten H&M trains and four more. That's total-- we're not distinguishing between "commute" trains and other trains at the moment.
daveklepper wrote:I wonder if the 1939 timetable shows any Jersey City trains that bypassed Newark Station running via the freight line to the Journal Square interlocking? It was a possible rout for passsenger service, and I wonder if it was ever used as such.
Not that I know of. Seems unlikely, after 1910 anyway-- Newark was too much of a destination in its own right. (On second thought, that Washington-Boston train that carfloated across NY pre-Hell Gate may not have stopped at Newark.)(On third thought, it did stop at Newark.)
7-8AM, eastbound
Apparently I didn't write clearly enough. The local from suburban station should be counted as a commuter train, but the express is a clocker and so is a through train. But apparently what wasn't clear is that I counted ten, not twenty, trains in the timetable to JCV, but the posting also noted that Hudson Terminal joint PRR-H&M trains were running every six minutes, making for a total of another ten, giving twenty on one stretch of track west of Journal Square station.
Now, does that tally with your figures? If not, what are your figures?
There is a train via Jamestown listed, and it should also be a commuter train.
The line from Jamestown, as you may know, is the northern half of the old Canden and Amboy, and the southern part was never electrified and part of that is now the NJT River Line. But as part of the extension of the electrification north from Trenton to Sunnyside Yard, the trackage from Monmouth Junction, north of Princeton Junction, where the line from Sea Girt (Jersey Shore) through Freehold reaches the Corridor, to Jamestown where this line and the Camden and Amboy cross with conenctions, was electrified, and then north to the remaing electrification at South Amboy. This was done primarily as a freight congestion relief line. I don't think any of this electrification exists today. I rode the Sea Girt to Monmouth Jc. line in the summer of 1951. The regular Red Bank to Trenton train was the assignment of a doodlebug, old gas electric converted to diesel electric plus a P-54 trailer, but the day I rode it, from Little Silver (at Fort Monmouth's back gate) to Princeton Junction, I was surprised by an E-6 Atlantic, combine, and the P-54 coach. This was the only time in my life I rode behind an E-6 Atlantic. Many years later, in 1957, the Electric Railroaders' Association ran a K-4 fan trip, starting with a GG-1 from Penn Station, changing to the K-4 at South Amboy, back-tracking from Bay Head Jc. to Sea Girt, and then over the line through Freehold to Jamestown. At Jamestown, we were supposed to go south to Camden, and we did proceed south for a few miles at about 15 mph, to come up against another K-4, not under steam, just standing in our path. The trip was running several hours late at the time anyway, so we backed up to Jamestown, reversed on a wye, and went north on the C&A line to South Amboy, a change to a GG-1, and back to Manhattan.
I wonder if the 1939 timetable shows any Jersey City trains that bypassed Newark Station running via the freight line to the Journal Square interlocking? It was a possible rout for passsenger service, and I wonder if it was ever used as such.
daveklepper wrote:Checked and counted again. Came up with same numbers.
You came up with 18 trains to NY in which hour? And 20 trains to JC in which hour?
Also, the train from Philadelphia Suburban was a local via the main line, not via Jamesburg.
Checked and counted again. Came up with same numbers.
Of course things need to be interpreted. I counted the one Clocker as long distance. Clockers always historically ran to Penn Station, once the station was opened. But the train from Phila Suburban via Jamestown I counted as suburban, because it originated at the Philadelphia suburban station. (Incidentally, that was probably an MU operation, electrified all the way up through the summer of 1952, when I rode part of it.) Anything from Trenton or closer is suburban. Anything from the Shore is suburban. There were no through trains to JC, only suburban trains, and there were ten suburban trains to JC and only five to Penn.
daveklepper wrote:18 trains altogether on the single eastbound tunnel track to Penn Staions means a train every 3.33 minutes, not bad! But the shared track to Jersey City had 10 commuter and 10 Hudson Terminal trains for a train every three minutes!
Not in the 1939 link above.
Thanks, on the Classic Trains forum referred to, during one morning rush hour in 1939, scheduled: 13 long distance trains to Penn Station, 10 commuter trains to Jersey City, and five commuter trains to Penn Station. Plus of course the ten PRR-H&M through service trains to Judson Terminal running every six minutes. 18 trains altogether on the single eastbound tunnel track to Penn Staions means a train every 3.33 minutes, not bad! But the shared track to Jersey City had 10 commuter and 10 Hudson Terminal trains for a train every three minutes!
Of course rapid transit and light rail lines have done even better with every 90 seconds or even every 75 seconds.
timz wrote: daveklepper wrote:...during the time that most of the rush hour commuter trains ran to the Ferry Terminal at Exchange Place Jersey City and not to Penn Station.Offhand I'm guessing that was never the case after 1937-- but I'll check.
daveklepper wrote:...during the time that most of the rush hour commuter trains ran to the Ferry Terminal at Exchange Place Jersey City and not to Penn Station.
Offhand I'm guessing that was never the case after 1937-- but I'll check.
I was wrong about that-- see
I'll check on H&M Henderson St-- pretty sure it was in the parallelogram block on the south side of Steuben St, here
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.718851,-74.039869&spn=0.003765,0.007156&t=h&z=17&om=0
I am glad you have the material for checking. Again, it was most of the rush hour commuter trains. Not true of off peak. I thought the crossover was east of the bridge, not west, between the bridge and the station. But maybe I was wrong.
One other thing. I am pretty sure the original Newark - Hudson Terminal cars had PRR cab signals, used of course only west of Journal Square. Someone told me that originally only the PRR half of the fleet had them, and they had to lead and rear at all times, but this was corrected and the H&M cars had them also. The K's had them until they were removed by PATH when subway-type signalling and automatic train stop was extended from Journal Square to Newark and the pocket tracks extending to South Street, with the position light signals and inductive train control circuits removed.
Can you pin down the exact location of the Henderson Street (or Avenue?) shop for me?
daveklepper wrote:Dock interlocking was rebuilt at least twice since my memory of catenary over the Harrison station tracks, once when PATH segregated its tracks from the PRR and once with the Corridor High Speed improvements.
daveklepper wrote:This allowed smoother operation and greater use of the southenmost (or easternmost) PRR track at Newark for trains bound for Exchange Place with zero interference with trains on any other track bound for Penn Station. You don't see the crossover, because it was removed.
Dock interlocking was rebuilt at least twice since my memory of catenary over the Harrison station tracks, once when PATH segregated its tracks from the PRR and once with the Corridor High Speed improvements. If you know the current layout of the tracks you can easily see why there was a crossover, why there was catenary on the eastbound Harrison platform track, during the time that most of the rush hour commuter trains ran to the Ferry Terminal at Exchange Place Jersey City and not to Penn Station. This allowed smoother operation and greater use of the southenmost (or easternmost) PRR track at Newark for trains bound for Exchange Place with zero interference with trains on any other track bound for Penn Station. You don't see the crossover, because it was removed. You don't see the catenary because it was removed, probably before the crossover was removed. Since the removal of the catenary and the removal of crossover and elimination of PRR-PC-then NJT service to Exchange Place, unless more major changes have been made in the last 12 years the southernmost or easternmost track at Newark Penn Station is much less used than the other tracks. I admit I cannot make this same argument for westbound service, only my memory. Which I would also have to admit isn't always perfect.
I would suspect that the present platforms at Harrison, reconstructed after the PATH purchase, are designed specifically for the narrow system-wide PATH cars and narrowed the gap of the former platforms. Now there is no reason to accomodate freight cars, and PATH owns the actual station, not Amtrak. I know this for a fact because I did some sound system work at the station 13 years ago. Who owns the track is another question. I don't remember any particularly wide gap at Harrison the last time I used the station, about 13 years ago. These were concrete platforms. My earlier memories were of wood plank platforms there. There is currently no special assignment of cars to the Newark service, and PATH cars are used on a system-wide basis.
The decision to gradually phase out Exchange Place and the ferries was made when through PRR passenger traffic started to decline. Then with every through train off and consolidation into Penn Station, a slot was opened up for rerouting a commuter train from Exchange Place to Penn Station. The ferries quit before the passenger service, because after the ferries quit it was still possible to access the Exchange Place station and ride to Hudson Terminal (World Trade Center).
For a long time, the PRR fare to Manhattan via Exchange Place and the ferries was less than the fare to Penn Station.
The old Henderson (Street or Avenue?) shops were unusual. Really tiny for the amount of work they performed. They were on the surface, and there may have been a railroad connection. But the connection to the H&M tracks was via an elevator that could accomodate one car at a time to a siding off of one of the tunnels. I think this was on the Manhattan bound track between Grove Street and Exchange Place, but I am not sure. John Kneiling ran an inspection trip there in my youth, about 1948.
daveklepper wrote:If PRR trains stopped at the Harrison station until 1927, then obviously the high platforms could accomodate them.
As I said above,
"PRR trains quit stopping at Harrison around 1929-- it was then two platforms on the outside of the four-track main line. In 1937 the H&M trains started stopping there at the two new platforms outside the two new tracks built for them on the outside of the four-track PRR main."
PRR trains were never scheduled to stop at Harrison after the present station opened in 1937.
daveklepper wrote: Why would not the catenary have been installed on the local tracks? There was no reason not to install it.
daveklepper wrote:Again, there were crossovers just west of the Newark draw bridge, and the catenary would have provide operating flexibility in times of track maintenance, etc.
Oy vey-- you're imagining a PRR train of MP54s could cross over from the PRR main to the H&M tracks west of the river? And east of Newark station? Take a look at the trackage there some time.
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