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Foreign locomotives in the United States

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Foreign locomotives in the United States
Posted by K_Boogie on Friday, June 23, 2023 3:01 PM

I know that the United States exports a lot of locomotives, but are there any cases of the opposite happening and locomotives from different countries being imported here? I know obviously the Siemens locomotives Amtrak uses are German(Although I'm pretty sure they're manufactured in California) and there used to be a handful of Russian TEM-7 diesels just sitting around in Houston, but are there any other cases of foreign rolling stock being used here?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, June 26, 2023 9:59 AM

In 1961. Krauss-Maffei AG sent 6 diesel torque-converter drive locomotive to the United States, 3 to D&RGW and 3 to SP.  In 1964, 15 more locomotives were sent to  SP.

In the late 1970's, Amtrak imported two straight electric locomoives, one from Sweden and one from France to serve as test beds for a GG! replacement.  The Swedish design won and provided the basis for the AEM7's.

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Posted by Backshop on Monday, June 26, 2023 10:14 AM

EMD's main production facility was in London, ON at one time.Big Smile

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Posted by D.Carleton on Monday, June 26, 2023 1:43 PM

There are the five SD50S on the G&W roster built under license by Clyde in Australia for Hamersley Iron and later brought to the US in 1999.

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Locomotive-Details/Utah-Railway-6061/

Someone else can cover the C36-7s from Oz.

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Posted by Bryan Jones on Monday, June 26, 2023 3:20 PM

D.Carleton

There are the five SD50S on the G&W roster built under license by Clyde in Australia for Hamersley Iron and later brought to the US in 1999.

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Locomotive-Details/Utah-Railway-6061/

Someone else can cover the C36-7s from Oz.

 

The 3 Hamersley Iron C36-7's were built by A. Goninan & Co under license for GE in 1978. They were sold to National Railway Equipment in 1998 long with the 5 SD50S's and shipped here to the United States. 1 ended up on the Minnesota Commercial but has long since been retired, traded back to NRE and scrapped. The other 2 were resold to Brazil with 1 of those actually now being preserved down there.

the Washington Terminal RR operated a Romanian built Faur quarter horse switcher. Built in 1974 and retired in 1978, sold and scrapped in the early to mid 1980's.

in the early 2000's before selling out to Genesee & Wyomin, the Ohio Central ended up with some odd switcher that had been built in Czechoslovakia. I don't think it ever turned a wheel in service and was eventually disposed of.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 26, 2023 3:23 PM

PRR imported a French de Glehn-du Bousquet compound for tests (it turned out to be too lightly built for typical service here, but it's interesting to consider what might have been if properly robust construction had been used...)

PRR also had a British-styled 4-4-0, the original class T, with a von Borries 2-cylinder cross-compound arrangement and three-axle tender.

If we expand things a bit, we had the Swedish X2000 and that delightful-in-principle 100mph Leyland railbus, and of course the ACF Talgo and the RTGs.

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Posted by DrW on Monday, June 26, 2023 3:48 PM

A few Chinese SY class mikados are used for tourist trains in the US.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 26, 2023 3:56 PM

DrW
A few Chinese SY class mikados are used for tourist trains in the US.

And of course the three famous QJ 2-10-2s.

Which reminds me that a whole train of Scandinavian equipment, the locomotive IIRC a 4-6-0, was used to run a tourist service for a while.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, June 26, 2023 3:58 PM

It's not the U.S, but CN tried a MaK diesel-hydraulic switcher back in 1956. 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cnr_diesel/demo.htm

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 26, 2023 4:09 PM

And of course the Baldwin 'Train X' RP-210 or whatever it was called had a German engine and drivetrain.  Wasn't the Alco-Haulic transmission also German?

If Canada is involved, why not the Dutch equipment for the Northlander?  That came with a 'locomotive' that IIRC did not last too long...

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Posted by DrW on Monday, June 26, 2023 5:26 PM

The Metro Rail in Austin, a hybrid light rail/commuter rail, uses Stadler GTW DMUs built in Switzerland.

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Posted by 54light15 on Monday, June 26, 2023 5:29 PM

That Northlander train is sitting in Holland outside of Amsterdam. I saw it 4 years ago and it's still painted in ON colours. The Marklin model train company paid to have it brought back providing that someone would restore it but that hasn't happened. 

The Swedish train ran on the Hull-Wakefield scenic railway but that was shut down when the line was washed out. I think it's been sold but to whom I do not know. 

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, June 26, 2023 7:50 PM

DrW
The Metro Rail in Austin, a hybrid light rail/commuter rail, uses Stadler GTW DMUs built in Switzerland.

A substantial number of light-rail and subway systems use foreign-built power, some from unusual builders.  That might be its own thread in the Transit forum.

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Posted by JayBee on Monday, June 26, 2023 9:02 PM

Obviously you people missed the biggest batch of foreign built locomotives in the USA. All of them are currently running on a US commuter railroad. NJ Transit has sixty-five ALP46 and ALP46A electric locomotives numbered 4600 - 4664. Built by Bombardier in Kassel, Germany.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, June 27, 2023 6:40 AM
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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, June 27, 2023 7:13 AM

Overmod

PRR imported a French de Glehn-du Bousquet compound for tests (it turned out to be too lightly built for typical service here, but it's interesting to consider what might have been if properly robust construction had been used...)

PRR also had a British-styled 4-4-0, the original class T, with a von Borries 2-cylinder cross-compound arrangement and three-axle tender.

If we expand things a bit, we had the Swedish X2000 and that delightful-in-principle 100mph Leyland railbus, and of course the ACF Talgo and the RTGs.

 

An additional permanent resident was an LNWR 2-2-2-0 three cylinder compound (named "Pennsylvania") built in 1888 for the Pennsylvania Railroad by Beyer Peacock (since an injunction had been taken out against the LNWR Crewe Works to prevent them building locomotives for outside customers.) It became PRR 1320 and apparently operated for at least a few years.

In 1893 a larger LNWR 2-2-2-2 "Queen Empress" was displayed in Chicago. It worked itself and two coaches to and from New York. Also at the Chicago Exhibition was the GWR 4-2-2 "Lord of the Isles" which being 7 foot gauge presumably rode on flatcars on both sides of the Atlantic. Apparently it had been exhibited new at the first international exhibition at the Crystal Palace when new in 1851.

These items are described in surprising detail in a magazine "Back Track" for April 2001.

I think you have confused your descriptions of Talgo trains. While a number of Talgo trains were imported to the USA, the ACF Talgos were built in the USA and exported to Spain, including a set built for demonstrations in the USA. The ACF Talgos were the first passenger carrying Talgo trains built. Some modified versions of the original Talgos were built by ACF for use by Rock Island and Boston and Maine.

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, June 27, 2023 9:14 AM

We could also count the HHP-8s and Acela power cars as 'foreign' by manufacturer, and there is a class of NJT diesel engines with Polish-sourced blocks in their 710s -- these are railfan-notable for being the best-sounding in acceleration of any locomotive I have heard...

The Frank Webb divided-drives span an interesting era in motive-power evolution, the years that high speed and coupled wheels were supposed to be incompatible.  The earlier ones, with the dustbin LP cylinder in the middle that turned the wheels both ways when the locomotive was drifted downgrade onto its train, were duly weird, but the later class (I think 'Greater Britain') were supposed to have been comparatively good, and I believe these were the model for PRR 1320.  (It has been a long time since I last looked at the experimentals...)

While on the subject of single-axle divided-drive locomotives, the James Toleman locomotive (which was designed by an Englishman) may count.  This was judged a failure for interesting engineering reasons that should have been comparatively easy to correct, and was in a collection at Purdue University for what appears to have been many years.

I was thinking of the ACF Talgo as 'foreign-inspired' even though, as noted, it was built in Berwick.  Along the same lines, Amtrak actually owned (and technically still does) one of the original sets of LRC cars.

 

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, June 27, 2023 5:13 PM

As a consolation prize:  the genset I had the pleasure of using a few times had Deutz Ag engines. 

 

  

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 7:54 AM

zugmann
As a consolation prize:  the genset I had the pleasure of using a few times had Deutz Ag engines.

Even better, I believe the AC6000 HDL engine was at least derived from the Deutz 605, wasn't it?

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 7:28 PM

Overmod

 

 
zugmann
As a consolation prize:  the genset I had the pleasure of using a few times had Deutz Ag engines.

My recollection is that the Deutz engine model was "632". I have a copy of a page from a trade journal showing a cross section of the "V" engine. As I understand it, Deutz only built inline engines to this design and GE were intended to build all the V-type engines. Of course this might have changed after GE abandoned the design.

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 7:42 PM

This was all during the great evolving cavitation scandals, where documentation changed almost from week to week (as did some of the stories and excuses...)

As I recall, in both the original EMD H-block and the GE engine, they were using thin-section castings for the block, and the firing stresses for 6000hp caused ultrasonic vibrations at unfortunate 'reinforcing' or resonant locations which then had that sonoluminescent augmented wear and corrosion boogie... in all sorts of little nooks and crannies engineers hadn't predicted the trouble would occur.  Exactly what the observed cumulative problems manifested as was never entirely clear, but metal thinning and a distressing number of potential pinhole coolant leaks into various places seem to be part of what could be expected.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 7:49 PM

Overmod

We could also count the HHP-8s and Acela power cars as 'foreign' by manufacturer, and there is a class of NJT diesel engines with Polish-sourced blocks in their 710s -- these are railfan-notable for being the best-sounding in acceleration of any locomotive I have heard...

The Frank Webb divided-drives span an interesting era in motive-power evolution, the years that high speed and coupled wheels were supposed to be incompatible.  The earlier ones, with the dustbin LP cylinder in the middle that turned the wheels both ways when the locomotive was drifted downgrade onto its train, were duly weird, but the later class (I think 'Greater Britain') were supposed to have been comparatively good, and I believe these were the model for PRR 1320.  (It has been a long time since I last looked at the experimentals...)

While on the subject of single-axle divided-drive locomotives, the James Toleman locomotive (which was designed by an Englishman) may count.  This was judged a failure for interesting engineering reasons that should have been comparatively easy to correct, and was in a collection at Purdue University for what appears to have been many years.

I was thinking of the ACF Talgo as 'foreign-inspired' even though, as noted, it was built in Berwick.  Along the same lines, Amtrak actually owned (and technically still does) one of the original sets of LRC cars.

To return to the Webb three cylinder compounds, "Pennsylvania" built in 1888 was described as belonging to the first "Experiment" class, but was in any case a 2-2-2-0 while "Greater Britain" built in 1891 was a 2-2-2-2. "Queen Empress" which visited in 1893 was a "Greater Britain" type. All of these had the large diameter inside low pressure cylinder. I understand that this cylinder had no separate control of the valve gear but just reacted to the steam from the outside cylinders.I recall that there were problems on starting from a stand where the inside cylinder depending on its position, could start in either direction. I don't recall of problems where the locomotive was moving and the cylinder and valves would be operating in the normal forward mode.

I was unaware of any 710 engines being built outside the USA, although 645 engines and 265 engines had been built elsewhere.

One of the the features of the EMD two stroke was the complex fabication of the "top deck" which formed an exhaust manifold, which replaced a casting used in the very earliest 567 engines. Somewhere I heard that some 645 engines that were built in Europe, I think for MK or GE (before the merger) had reverted to cast top decks because modern techniques allowed a better result than  the late 1930s engines and this cost less than the complex fabrication where the shop was not set up for mass production.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 8:18 PM

Overmod

This was all during the great evolving cavitation scandals, where documentation changed almost from week to week (as did some of the stories and excuses...)

As I recall, in both the original EMD H-block and the GE engine, they were using thin-section castings for the block, and the firing stresses for 6000hp caused ultrasonic vibrations at unfortunate 'reinforcing' or resonant locations which then had that sonoluminescent augmented wear and corrosion boogie... in all sorts of little nooks and crannies engineers hadn't predicted the trouble would occur.  Exactly what the observed cumulative problems manifested as was never entirely clear, but metal thinning and a distressing number of potential pinhole coolant leaks into various places seem to be part of what could be expected.

 

I recall that the HDL engines had a very distinct "hollow" exhaust sound. There was a spot just outside Port Hedland where a train appeared over a hump in the track, but could be heard approaching for some time before this. You could also tell that the train had GE locomotives by the column of smoke, EMDs not giving this indication.

But you could hear the distinctive sound of the HDL before the train appeared. This was a "hollow" sound, and might be due to the thinner castings.

The cavitation problem had been experienced much earlier in German high speed diesel engines, the Mercedes Benz MB 820 being one of the early victims. This was used in the DB V200 locomotive, but was interchangeable with Maybach and MAN engines of similar power. Some Krupp engines also suffered from cavitation. Maybach engines were constructed from cast sections welded together and these, including those used in SP and DRGW locomotives suffered much less from this problem.

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, June 29, 2023 7:53 AM

M636C
I understand that this cylinder had no separate control of the valve gear but just reacted to the steam from the outside cylinders.

To simplify the design -- and it actually made engineering sense to do this, until you encountered the 'edge case' that turned out to be a near-everyday occurrence -- the dustbin LP cylinder had only a slip link for its valve gear: depending on which way the locomotive was moving, the link block would move to the 'correct' direction to follow the HP cylinders.  Interestingly enough, this was a design REFINEMENT on the Dreadnought class, replacing an inside independent set of Joy valve gear that added cost and complexity.  As the HP engine would (in theory) develop tractive effort before its exhaust steam was directed into the LP receiver, the engine should move enough to slip the link before any substantial piston thrust developed.  (I note in passing that if the two engines had been conjugated with side rods or gearing, there would have been little or no problem with this arrangement.)

Where the problem developed was when the locomotive was backed onto a train that was departing upgrade.  Naturally the train would have been marshalled with no slack, and when the locomotive was backed down (with the slip link fully and correctly in reverse) there would likewise be no slack against the train.

I think you see where this is going.  On starting, you had one axle providing all the TE to start the whole train, engine and at least the first cars, UPGRADE.  Naturally this might produce a slip.  Even a couple of rotations would liberate enough exhaust mass flow to activate the LP cylinder... but the locomotive had not advanced far enough to slip the link, and the slip mass flow even with cylinder cocks open might well be -- and apparently often was -- enough to make the LP driver pair slip... in opposite rotation.  Naturally the two TEs tended to cancel each other out, so the train wouldn't go anywhere but applying any steam to move it would only amplify the slipping.

If you have read Sinclair's History of the Locomotive Engine, he goes into some detail on a similar characteristic of the pre-Civil War Winans cam gear.  This could get into a similar mislocked state, but it was equipped to take a so-called starting bar that was inserted and heaved over to set the gear in correct orientation.  I do not know if this sort of thing was formally fitted to the Webb engines or if the engineman just grabbed a handy fire tool or pinch bar and 'got out and got under'.

Apparently the Greater Britains had enough improvement in either design or operation that they weren't considered the laughingstock the 2-2-2-0s were.  But just the same when Whale came in he got rid of the lot in short order.

 

 

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Posted by foamductor on Saturday, July 1, 2023 12:34 AM

M636C
My recollection is that the Deutz engine model was "632". I have a copy of a page from a trade journal showing a cross section of the "V" engine. As I understand it, Deutz only built inline engines to this design and GE were intended to build all the V-type engines. Of course this might have changed after GE abandoned the design. Peter



You are correct on the HDL was developed from the MWM632. GE ended up securing rights to the engine as part of the settlement of the lawsuit they had with Duetz over issues in development. 

The HDL was eventually heavily modified into the GEVO used in the Evolutions. In fact early literature for the Evolutions refered to the engine as the 7HDL-12 before they started using the "GEVO" name. 

Curiously on the Duetz side of things MWM was sold to Caterpillar about a decade ago, the successor to the 632 family is now made by Cat... 

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Posted by postmark on Wednesday, October 4, 2023 9:06 PM

The Jitong Railway in China sold five QJ 2-10-2 steam locomotives No. 6988, 7040 and 7081 to the America for tourist trains. Now  they were  IAIS 6988 , IAIS 7081 , R.J. Corman 2008.

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Posted by samfp1943 on Thursday, October 5, 2023 10:29 PM

postmark

The Jitong Railway in China sold five QJ 2-10-2 steam locomotives No. 6988, 7040 and 7081 to the America for tourist trains. Now  they were  IAIS 6988 , IAIS 7081 , R.J. Corman 2008.

 

  AS to the Chinese-built SY class locomotives: they are noted on the following linked site @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Railways_SY

Three were ordered and built, but one was lost in transit, in the North Indian Ocean [NYS&W RR}.   See link for details.

As to the Krauss-Maffei's [ML-4000]:  Their original order for both the SP and DRG&W was documented, during their European test phase, by an article in TRAINS.   It was because of their testing in Switzerland, and the Swiss Rail tunnel clearance issues; their inward sloaped cab design was needed.  

  SPRR  also had some similar-builds, that were of an ALCO design (GP style, open side walks on engines).

Apparently, the only survivor of the ML-4000's is  SP 9010;  It had been converted to be used as a cameral platform for ROW crew training videos(?).

It was re configured back to ts more-or-less delivered condition, by a group affiliatred with a SPRR Historical Society (?).     

As for those Russian TEM-7's; There were some photos published in TRAINS ,on a couple of occasions;  They came about the time the Pepsi Corp, somehow, wound up with (IIRC) a Russian submarine('s?) (?). I  believe those acquisitions, were products of then current, International monetary activities ( in 1980's (?) ).

Sameway, those  (Russian TEM-7's), were the property of a  Major [EXXON (?)] Oil Corp(?). Curiosities,they were just parked; in Houston Area,unused. They just sat,[ Unable to meet US or ARR rules or regulations for a number of years(?)].

In time they just fell off anyone's list of interests(?) 

No idea as to their final fate (?).     

 

 


 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, October 16, 2023 6:24 PM

postmark

The Jitong Railway in China sold five QJ 2-10-2 steam locomotives No. 6988, 7040 and 7081 to the America for tourist trains. Now  they were  IAIS 6988 , IAIS 7081 , R.J. Corman 2008.

 

The Boone & Scenic Valley has a Chinese JS class Mikado, the 8419.  It was the last steam engine built at the Datong locomotive works.  

Jeff

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