The battery units should help with the loading complaints on the Gensets for switching operations. Lifespan of the batteries will be another issue.
rdamon The battery units should help with the loading complaints on the Gensets for switching operations. Lifespan of the batteries will be another issue.
This is another thing. While there have been many issues with the Gensets, it is possible that a Genset combined with a battery unit could be a best of both worlds. I'm personally not sure that's the way the railroads will go. I think it more likely that they will pair them with rebuilt traditional locomotives or single engine 2000+HP Tier 4 units, but it is possible. I think of Railroads like Cal Northern and Sierra Northern locally that are almost entirely gensets or more recent Tier 4 remanufactured units.
Think C.A.R.B. "cash for clunkers" program enabled the destruction of Gen 1 and Gen 2 units in CA operations.
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/reducing-rail-emissions-california/locomotive-emission-verifications-technology
Except that the vast majority of the Class 1 switching fleet in California is second and 3rd gen EMD or Second gen upgraded to 3rd gen microprocessor control. Plus a small number of Tier 4 rebuilds. The genset are all gone. Only the shortlines made use of that program extensively and they are the ones still running gensets. And even then, only some of them. PHL has moved on.
rdamonhttps://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/reducing-rail-emissions-california/locomotive-emission-verifications-technology
Thanks for the respnses to my question, even if the answers were obvious, and I should have been able to come up with them myself.
SD70DudeFor better or worse Russia, China, and most of Europe have state owned railway systems.
The reasons why there are electric lines in europa are pretty diverse:
All the railways with early electrification have their own power grid out of pure necessaty (16.7Hz instead of 50Hz) or were tapping into the power grid with low voltage DC.
When europe started to electrify there was mostly no good alternative and when you have your network partially electrified, the incentive to continue is pretty high and the way to go from here is with some more catenary ord with hybrid technology (Diesel & Catenary or Battery & Catenary).
The railroads in the US never really started so they can start from scratch.
The only way I would see a full fledged electrification in the US would be, if the class 1 railroads would work together with the energy companies to map out needs and synergies with the US national power grid (which as I heard is in dire need of repair and strengthening). Still expensive but at least it would help the hole country distributing energy and would pave the way for a better infracstructure in general.
Who is going to finance the electrical infrastructure that will be required to support all the necessary energy required to support the conversion to electric road vehicles and railroads, in addition to the increasing usage of electric in the home and office?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Who is going to finance the electrical infrastructure that will be required to support all the necessary energy required to support the conversion to electric road vehicles and railroads, in addition to the increasing usage of electric in the home and office?
I don't think the issue is the grid itself. The problem is supply.
At the same time we are closing coal plants, planning for a move away from other fossil fuel generation, and hearing evironmental demands to remove dams, we are calling for greatly increasing demand.
Covering the country with windmills and solar farms is unlikely to be able to supply that huge demand.
York1 John
The other challenge for the grid is that it is designed to bring power from the large plants to the cities. When you have solar and wind your source is scattered in new areas. Upgrading transmission lines upsets the Nimbys.
+1 on the HVDC shoutout - We do not need another 2003 tree incident.
The move from Natural Gas to Electricity and a few EV chargers in the home will stress the distribution network as well.
Electric loads have long been a basic demand. Loads in the past have been reducing because of several reasons. Electric motors have become more efficient and now many do not have load factor problems. HVAC units have a much higher energy efficiency rating. Alot of old window units still have ratings as low as 5 and are slowly being replaced with units 10 or higher.
Replacement lighting is slowly being replaced by LED light. My work light location incadescents are about gone as they are used only once a week and subject to breakage.
Flourescents are slowly going away. My stock of CFLS just ran out for example. All the cities around here are replacing street lights with LEDs as the older types burn out. It is not so much for energy conservation as the costs of a lift's time and labor will be saved in the long run.
The energy star appliances are slowly becoming a larger percentage of homes.
All in all energy consumption stayed flat for a long time and now loads are spiking up. The grids are still using transformers that are not as efficient as newer transformers. As well very high voltage transmssion lines need refurbishment. Many of those lines no longer cover demand changes.DThis means many new electric sources are needed.
IMO the small necular reactor might be the way of the future. They are more easily made safe when there is a problem.l + Neculear essentially run steady for long periods of time providing a good base load.
YoHo1975Solar has dropped the most in price, we're at the point where it's close to worth it to have every single house in america have solar, even if those houses aren't situated perfectly, because the price per watt is so low.
Solar has dropped in price. At what cost?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/business/economy/china-solar-companies-forced-labor-xinjiang.html
How many U.S. homes are installing solar cells that are made in part or whole by forced labor? Is that factored into the price per watt?
In 2016, only 9% of the world’s solar-grade polysilicon came from Xinjiang. But by 2020 it provided about 45% of the world’s supply, according to industry analyst Johannes Bernreuter.
The expectation is that the vast majority of road vehicles will be charged at night when electric demand is low, so it will not tax the transmission grid.
YoHo1975Would you like to go over the conflicts and human suffering tied to the fossil fuel market?
No, I wouldn't.
It doesn't change the fact that solar energy not only has it's own production issues, but at this time it is not a good answer for the huge generating production and energy storage we need if we are quickly doing away with fossil fuels.
I'm not saying it may not be a future major supplier.
MidlandMike The expectation is that the vast majority of road vehicles will be charged at night when electric demand is low, so it will not tax the transmission grid.
That assumes some sort of reliable base load generating capacity. With the rush to shut down fossil fuel plants and an insane push to shut down nuclear plants, I don't think we will be able to provide power for recharging EV's at night. one possible work-aorund is having a MUCH larger roll-out of charging stations at office/retail/factory parking lots so cars can be charged with solar.
If any references to EVs can be inferred to this post...20% of EV buyers returned them.....reason: inconvenient to charge...gbye green new deal...
Former Car MaintainerIf any references to EVs can be inferred to this post...20% of EV buyers returned them.....reason: inconvenient to charge...gbye green new deal...
Recharging using 110v and 220v feeds are slow and inefficient. EV users that used their vehicles nominally full distance during the day were not able to get them fully recharged overnight.
Vehicles registered in the US in 2021 - 289.5 million
https://hedgescompany.com/automotive-market-research-statistics/auto-mailing-lists-and-marketing/
Erik_Mag MidlandMike The expectation is that the vast majority of road vehicles will be charged at night when electric demand is low, so it will not tax the transmission grid. That assumes some sort of reliable base load generating capacity.
That assumes some sort of reliable base load generating capacity.
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/who-needs-baseload-power-or-let-markets-do-their-job
Utilities in the United States have had at least a decade of comfortable experience operating grids with a declining share of baseload power relative to low-cost renewable energy. Meanwhile, across the Atlantic, both reliability and renewable energy adoption levels are higher than in the United States; notably, the lights failed to go out in England when the U.K. grid recently ran for a full day without any coal power for the first time since 1882, foreshadowing its planned phaseout by 2025. Analytically, scientists working for the Department of Energy’s (DOE’s) own world-renowned national laboratories, among others, consistently have shown that grids with moderate-to-high (30–80 percent) shares of renewable energy, and commensurately lower shares of baseload capacity, work just as reliably and at least as resiliently as fossil fuel-based power systems, but with lower operating costs and risks. Utility executives, too, increasingly see the writing on the wall that not only is baseload unnecessary for a reliable grid, but it is financially incompatible with a rapidly changing energy landscape. The CEO of National Grid said in 2015, "The idea of baseload power is already outdated," as consumers look to cheaper resources, closer to them, to meet their needs. An executive from PG&E, one of the nation’s largest utilities, said, "The idea of a large baseload generator that runs pretty much all the time … just doesn’t have as good a fit to the market conditions we expect to see" in the grid of the future.
Analytically, scientists working for the Department of Energy’s (DOE’s) own world-renowned national laboratories, among others, consistently have shown that grids with moderate-to-high (30–80 percent) shares of renewable energy, and commensurately lower shares of baseload capacity, work just as reliably and at least as resiliently as fossil fuel-based power systems, but with lower operating costs and risks.
Utility executives, too, increasingly see the writing on the wall that not only is baseload unnecessary for a reliable grid, but it is financially incompatible with a rapidly changing energy landscape. The CEO of National Grid said in 2015, "The idea of baseload power is already outdated," as consumers look to cheaper resources, closer to them, to meet their needs. An executive from PG&E, one of the nation’s largest utilities, said, "The idea of a large baseload generator that runs pretty much all the time … just doesn’t have as good a fit to the market conditions we expect to see" in the grid of the future.
YoHo1975An executive from PG&E, one of the nation’s largest utilities, said, "The idea of a large baseload generator that runs pretty much all the time … just doesn’t have as good a fit to the market conditions we expect to see" in the grid of the future.
I wonder if he's changed his mind at all after last year's rolling blackouts in California.
York1 YoHo1975 An executive from PG&E, one of the nation’s largest utilities, said, "The idea of a large baseload generator that runs pretty much all the time … just doesn’t have as good a fit to the market conditions we expect to see" in the grid of the future. I wonder if he's changed his mind at all after last year's rolling blackouts in California.
greenbiz.com is an authoritative, independent, objective journal without a dog in the hunt?
Quotes from an unnamed executive are worthless. Who is the executive? And what function does he oversee? Or she?
Demand based power rates could level out peak load times. Tesla's Power Wall https://www.tesla.com/powerwall concept would be good for charging on off-peak lower rate times.
YoHo1975 An executive from PG&E, one of the nation’s largest utilities, said, "The idea of a large baseload generator that runs pretty much all the time … just doesn’t have as good a fit to the market conditions we expect to see" in the grid of the future.
A valid point, but at least part of the problem was transmission related. The rolling blackouts were also far less severe than expected.
The Company formerly known as PG&E also didn't actually do enough to insure any form of generation due to some really bad planning on their part. They were short renewables too.
I'm hard pressed to use PG&E as a good example of anything. Even that quote I had above, that's less interesting to me than the successes in the UK and Europe.
I have good friends that work for them, but anyone above the front line workers is suspect in my book.
What are the implications for demand in the evening when 289 million vehicles (the number of registered vehicles in the US in 2021-assuming all are swapped out for an EV) are simultaneously plugging in overnight? Perhaps there is a study somewhere.
A gallon of gasoline is the energy equivalent of 36kWh.
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