tdmidget So let us in on the secret. Just where are these undammed rivers and mountains waiting to unleash this gush of power? Pumped storage is about 25% efficient. It's a serious net loser and when you are pumping that power must come from somewhere. Coal, maybe? Have you given a thought to the difficulties of permitting such a venture? Endangered species act? EPA? Sierra Club? and on and on. I am currently working at a hydro electric plant and it is generally felt that a nuke would be easier to permit today. At the present time 42% of it's income goes to fish hatchery and protection.
So let us in on the secret. Just where are these undammed rivers and mountains waiting to unleash this gush of power? Pumped storage is about 25% efficient. It's a serious net loser and when you are pumping that power must come from somewhere. Coal, maybe? Have you given a thought to the difficulties of permitting such a venture? Endangered species act? EPA? Sierra Club? and on and on. I am currently working at a hydro electric plant and it is generally felt that a nuke would be easier to permit today. At the present time 42% of it's income goes to fish hatchery and protection.
Have you given a thought to the difficulties of permitting such a venture? Endangered species act? EPA? Sierra Club? and on and on. I am currently working at a hydro electric plant and it is generally felt that a nuke would be easier to permit today. At the present time 42% of it's income goes to fish hatchery and protection.
I heard that there are non-trivial maintenance costs for the overhead wire.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
The only item for electrification are the installation & motor costs. Right now the costs to install CAT are fairly well known. The only costs that may change are those costs of overhauling Tier - 4 compliant locos. If that becomes a significant cost then the heavy use routes might get electric motors to prevent as many tier-4 overhauls ? ?
Most of the items I've seen online about hypothetical North American freight rail operations seem to be aimed at Southern California where there are proposals to electrify the Alameida Corridor and related trackage....
http://www.freightworks.org/DocumentLibrary/CRGMSAIS%20-%20Analysis%20of%20Freight%20Rail%20Electrification%20in%20the%20SCAG%20Region.pdf
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Maybe fishing for grant money so he won't have to get a real job.
tdmidget Who this posts attributed to me ain't so might be interesting to figure out who faked it up! Buslist As built it was a flop. Lead acid batteries do not dicharge at the same rate. As each battery died the voltage and power dropped rapidly. In 2014 or thereabouts the batteries ( over a thousand of them) were replaced with custom made special batteries, each with a charge management system, surely at a great cost. It is now alledgedly capable of working 3 shifts without charging but doing what? Most reecent pix have been of displays and publicity outings. In most working pix it is MU'd with diesels and I suspect is merely a cab car. tdmidget Considering how successful NS999 was I would think this guy should keep quiet. Tell us about the 999. I have to confes I know little or nothing about it.
Buslist As built it was a flop. Lead acid batteries do not dicharge at the same rate. As each battery died the voltage and power dropped rapidly. In 2014 or thereabouts the batteries ( over a thousand of them) were replaced with custom made special batteries, each with a charge management system, surely at a great cost. It is now alledgedly capable of working 3 shifts without charging but doing what? Most reecent pix have been of displays and publicity outings. In most working pix it is MU'd with diesels and I suspect is merely a cab car. tdmidget Considering how successful NS999 was I would think this guy should keep quiet. Tell us about the 999. I have to confes I know little or nothing about it.
As built it was a flop. Lead acid batteries do not dicharge at the same rate. As each battery died the voltage and power dropped rapidly. In 2014 or thereabouts the batteries ( over a thousand of them) were replaced with custom made special batteries, each with a charge management system, surely at a great cost. It is now alledgedly capable of working 3 shifts without charging but doing what? Most reecent pix have been of displays and publicity outings. In most working pix it is MU'd with diesels and I suspect is merely a cab car.
tdmidget Considering how successful NS999 was I would think this guy should keep quiet.
Considering how successful NS999 was I would think this guy should keep quiet.
Tell us about the 999. I have to confes I know little or nothing about it.
erikem Anything more than a few per cent penetration of renewables in the electric energy supply will require either devlopment of economically feasible utility scale electric energy storage (pumped hydro is the only technology that exists now) and curtailment of renewable generation when demand drops to minimal sustainable fossil generation (grid stability). One of the problems is that the most efficient fossil generation is not compatible with large and rapid changes in load.
Anything more than a few per cent penetration of renewables in the electric energy supply will require either devlopment of economically feasible utility scale electric energy storage (pumped hydro is the only technology that exists now) and curtailment of renewable generation when demand drops to minimal sustainable fossil generation (grid stability). One of the problems is that the most efficient fossil generation is not compatible with large and rapid changes in load.
When I first came to the "U" in 1982, I was all enthusiastic about grid-connected wind generators, but the old-timers in the power engineering group of the ECE department were telling me pretty much the same thing you just said. I thought they were wrong because if the wind wasn't blowing in one place it was blowing in another place, and someone just told me that there are places in California where it blows "all the time."
Well these old guys are long retired, and we read the Memorial Resolution for one of them, and he was lauded as a pioneer in renewable energy for the work he did that I knew about in 1982 with wind power, but this was the same guy who told me wind power "would never work" for the reasons you just mentioned.
Since then, we have a bunch of younger guys who are enthusiastic of renewable power and are claiming that the "grid can handle" a much higher percentage of renewable power because they have made progress on the math involving probability -- the odds that the wind is blowing at least someplace.
In the mean time, I have soured on wind power, largely because of the 2008 Global Economic Crisis, where the financial mavens claimed similar progress on the math of probability, the odds that if one loan defaults, that at least someone somewhere else is able to keep making their payments. I guess that didn't work out when everyone, everywhere stopped making their debt payments all at once. Such was called a Black Swan as in a rare happening, or one that you think is rare but happens more often than you think. It turns out that the wind can stop blowing on a continent-wide scale for certain Black Swan weather events, and the folks in Europe are finding out that is less rare than you would think.
Used to be that power utility people along with the old-guy power-engineering people at the "U" were just sticks-in-the-mud on all of the bright-eyed schemes, but they never quite explained why. Now, not only have the power engineers become Believers in a Carbon Free World, the local power company is pushing such schemes in their Power 2030 plan.
But the mathematical laws of chance and of odds haven't changed in the meantime.
nfotis So let us in on the secret. Just where are these undammed rivers and mountains waiting to unleash this gush of power? Pumped storage is about 25% efficient. It's a serious net loser and when you are pumping that power must come from somewhere. Coal, maybe? Have you given a thought to the difficulties of permitting such a venture? Endangered species act? EPA? Sierra Club? and on and on. I am currently working at a hydro electric plant and it is generally felt that a nuke would be easier to permit today. At the present time 42% of it's income goes to fish hatchery and protection. schlimm They can rely on renewables much of the time (especially Mar-Nov) when the HSRs run (daytime, primarily?): wind, also solar ("sunny California") and hydro. Carbon and nuclear are back ups. There is a large scale renewable energy storage system: hydro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity If you have some mountains, you can use big water reservoirs for energy storage.A hydropower system can go from zero to full power in 1-2 minutes (depending on scale and various design parameters). Let me relate a small story I read many years ago: France is very nuclear-dependent (I think above 70% comes from reactors). On the nights, the Swiss railroads (SBB) were buying dirt-cheap energy from the French network, and were filling a lake overnight, in time for the morning commuter rush. A similar system can be used for storing the energy from sources like photovoltaic, windmills, etc., and to offer it when needed. N.F.
So let us in on the secret. Just where are these undammed rivers and mountains waiting to unleash this gush of power? Pumped storage is about 25% efficient. It's a serious net loser and when you are pumping that power must come from somewhere. Coal, maybe?
schlimm They can rely on renewables much of the time (especially Mar-Nov) when the HSRs run (daytime, primarily?): wind, also solar ("sunny California") and hydro. Carbon and nuclear are back ups.
They can rely on renewables much of the time (especially Mar-Nov) when the HSRs run (daytime, primarily?): wind, also solar ("sunny California") and hydro. Carbon and nuclear are back ups.
There is a large scale renewable energy storage system: hydro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
If you have some mountains, you can use big water reservoirs for energy storage.A hydropower system can go from zero to full power in 1-2 minutes (depending on scale and various design parameters).
Let me relate a small story I read many years ago:
France is very nuclear-dependent (I think above 70% comes from reactors). On the nights, the Swiss railroads (SBB) were buying dirt-cheap energy from the French network, and were filling a lake overnight, in time for the morning commuter rush.
A similar system can be used for storing the energy from sources like photovoltaic, windmills, etc., and to offer it when needed.
N.F.
Paul Milenkovic What I had heard (this was in Railway Age 40 years ago in the 1970s the last time electification was on the agenda) was not that the railroads don't want to pay "commercial" or whatever rate. What they don't want to pay are demand charges. They want to run their trains when they want to run them without having to worry about "on-peak" vs "off-peak."
What I had heard (this was in Railway Age 40 years ago in the 1970s the last time electification was on the agenda) was not that the railroads don't want to pay "commercial" or whatever rate. What they don't want to pay are demand charges. They want to run their trains when they want to run them without having to worry about "on-peak" vs "off-peak."
This was an issue brought up the the early 1960's articles on potential RR electrification in Trains magazine. The Milwaukee took a hit in operations on their Cascade electric zone in winter months - they beasically shut down the system between 5 and 6 PM to avoid demand charges.
Buslist In a study in the UK , by GE IIRC concluded that a modern diesel locomotive is more energy efficient than an electric locomotive if the efficiency is carried back to the energy source and it's a fossil fuled power plant. The UK response was that much of our electric power comes from France (never had a chance to verify this but know it is partly true) that is heavily NUC. Without having access to the study I'll cease to comment (unusual for this forum but consistent with my rule, if you don't KNOW don't comment or at least say you are only guessing)
In a study in the UK , by GE IIRC concluded that a modern diesel locomotive is more energy efficient than an electric locomotive if the efficiency is carried back to the energy source and it's a fossil fuled power plant. The UK response was that much of our electric power comes from France (never had a chance to verify this but know it is partly true) that is heavily NUC. Without having access to the study I'll cease to comment (unusual for this forum but consistent with my rule, if you don't KNOW don't comment or at least say you are only guessing)
With thermal efficiencies of locomotive sized diesel engines approaching 50%, the most efficient means to run trains with petroleum is via diesel locomotives. The improved effciency possible with a GTCC (~60%) may make up for the losses, but with a large capital cost. It does not make sense to use petroleum fed central generating stations to move trains.
Since the primary fossil fuels for electric power egneration in the US are coal and natural gas, the situation does become a bit more complicated. I suspect that natural gas fueled locomotives may be cheaper than electrfication, but there are safety concerns with hauling the natural gas around, be it compressed or liquified. The price per BTU advantage with natural vs #2 diesel fuel would have to be large and sustained to make converting locomotives to NG economical.
I am aware of the UK being able to get nighttime surplus nuclear electricity from France and I am also aware that the power transfer is limited by the capacity of the cross-channel HVDC links. I don't have figures for the capacity of the those links. I do remember being told that the channel crossing was short enough to allow AC links, but the DC links allowed for asynchronous operation.
schlimmAlthough many on here will object, it's about time. The Feds could repeat that program from the 1930s to complete PRR electrification. And the PRR repaid the low-interest loan, probably from the money saved by increased operating efficiency.
That was when half my town became electrical workers overnight. PRR used to pick up a trainload of the fine citizens, take them to the woods/fields outside of town where they were working on the catenary, and tell them to get lost until 5pm.
When 5 would roll around, they train would come back, pick up the people and take them back home.
*as some old timers told my dad.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
schlimm GERALD L MCFARLANE JR It could also be made a moot point as to whether or not the RR's want to cooperate by a simple act of Congress. Although many on here will object, it's about time. The Feds could repeat that program from the 1930s to complete PRR electrification. And the PRR repaid the low-interest loan, probably from the money saved by increased operating efficiency.
GERALD L MCFARLANE JR It could also be made a moot point as to whether or not the RR's want to cooperate by a simple act of Congress.
Although many on here will object, it's about time. The Feds could repeat that program from the 1930s to complete PRR electrification. And the PRR repaid the low-interest loan, probably from the money saved by increased operating efficiency.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
That is the beauty of Diesel fuel. It truly is an energy storage medium. You can purchase the fuel and then run the locomotive anytime day or night and not incur any special charges.
I mean, you are talking about an industry digging in their heels about filling locomotives with DEF to control emissions. If they make such a fuss about the logistics overhead of DEF, are they going to take kindly to demand pricing of electricity?
That is also what I found so risible about the promotional computer-generated video of the California HSR train zipping along besides turning windmills that were going to power it. Was the California HSR supposed to be like the Clipper Ships that had to wait for the wind to shift out-to-sea in order to make their departure?
Perhaps A/C can be cycled on and off depending on when the wind blows, and there was a recent discussion about a California power company wanting to make greater use of renewables by doing just that. If the wind stops and your A/C is turned off for an hour, you just strip down to your underwear at home and wear shower clogs? If the wind stops, do you put the HSR in a siding for an hour or so? Or do the passengers get out and push?
BaltACD The only way I would forsee additional electrification taking place woul be for the 'Electrical Providers' that want to use rail rights of way for their power grid to supply and maintain the necessary catenary as well as provide power at below market wholesale rates and hold the carriers harmless in any damge to their facilities caused by a derailment or any other happening that would result in any kind of liability to the railroads. After that the rail carrier MIGHT talk.
The only way I would forsee additional electrification taking place woul be for the 'Electrical Providers' that want to use rail rights of way for their power grid to supply and maintain the necessary catenary as well as provide power at below market wholesale rates and hold the carriers harmless in any damge to their facilities caused by a derailment or any other happening that would result in any kind of liability to the railroads. After that the rail carrier MIGHT talk.
Using the railroad right-of-way for the power grid might happen sooner than you think. It's widely known that the current power grid in the U.S. is both old and outdated and that it will require expansion/replacement within the next 25 - 50 years(or something around that time frame). There was already a proposal once to use a railroad right-of-way as a new transmission line right-of-way, with the caveat that the underlying RR would be able to use the transmission towers to string catenary from and pay wholesale rates for electricity(since the RR's already pay wholesale prices for diesel fuel, it would go without saying they'd balk at paying commercial rates for electricity). Any transmission tower built to carry high tension power lines for the grid would most likely withstand the majority of derailments, with only the most catastrophic and or explosive causing distruction of the tower(it's more feasible than you might think). It could also be made a moot point as to whether or not the RR's want to cooperate by a simple act of Congress.
Buslist tdmidget Considering how successful NS999 was I would think this guy should keep quiet. Tell us about the 999. I have to confes I know little or nothing about it.
NS 999 has relatively the same utility as the fireless steam engines.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In general, using batteries for electric traction is not very usable (not enough energy density and reliability).
Mainline electrification is done on the NEC, so it should serve as an example of how it is possible (OK, overbuilt catenary poles and portals are not the best aesthetic statement on this )
CandOforprogress2 What is needed is for Amtrak and NS to play nice so they could have dual mode freight locos on the Northeast Corridor. In addition the P&W also provides local freight service on ex New Haven Lines north of NYC
What is needed is for Amtrak and NS to play nice so they could have dual mode freight locos on the Northeast Corridor. In addition the P&W also provides local freight service on ex New Haven Lines north of NYC
Dual mode, like the ALP-45DP, or six-axles?
In Europe, we expect to see the first dual modes in operation soon (Class 88 from Stadler Espana). The lower axle load (weight budget) precludes higher performance in four axles, we may see a 6-axle dual power for freight in the future.
Buslist Let's try it again! http://www.progressiverailroading.com/webcasts/details/Freight-Rail-Electrification--49306
Let's try it again!
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/webcasts/details/Freight-Rail-Electrification--49306
The link answers the question about bring the power grid to the railroads.
Shadow the Cats owner Just who will pay for the power grid needed to power these locomotives. Also where in the heck would we find the needed extra juice needed to power them with all the power plants being retired anymore.
Just who will pay for the power grid needed to power these locomotives. Also where in the heck would we find the needed extra juice needed to power them with all the power plants being retired anymore.
sign in to the web cast, it's free, and ask those questions, I'm just the messenger (although there was some mention of battery power, they mentioned that NS and PSU did some work on a battery powered locomotive), again don't shoot the messenger!
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