Admittedly, this topic might be a 'reach' here, but with the EPA Regulation Writers of Washington; can there be something 'behind the curtain' of Tier 4 requirements? Waiting to spring on the rail. and very heavy duty engine industry requirement, future requirements? In their 'sprint' to finish out the current administrations regulatory programs; anything may be possible(?)
"EPA and DOT Finalize Greenhouse Gas and Fuel Efficiency Standards for Heavy-Duty Trucks"
Here is the link: @ https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-and-dot-finalize-greenhouse-gas-and-fuel-efficiency-standards-heavy-duty-trucks-0
FTA:"...WASHINGTON – Today the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the U.S. Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) jointly finalized standards for medium- and heavy-duty vehicles that will improve fuel efficiency and cut carbon pollution, while bolstering energy security and spurring manufacturing innovation. The final phase two standards were called for by President Obama’s Climate Action Plan, and respond to the President’s directive in early 2014 to develop new standards that run into the next decade..." [snipped]
[*It was signed in April of 2016..It must be ratified by Congress, within a year.]
Seems to me that there are basic laws of physics putting an upper limit on ton-miles per gallon. Unfortunately there are some trade-offs between increasing engine efficiency and decreasing NOx emissions. Having a hybrid power train may be of some use for reducing fuel consumption on rolling terrain, but can't imagine it being a significant help for mountain driving.
It will be interesting to see how the Tier 4 locomotives do in daily service and how much change is fuel consumption is due to meeting the Tier 4 regulations. There have been a lot of incremental improvements in locomotive efficiency since the FT. Perhaps a combined cycle gas turrbine with a supercritical CO2 bottoming cycle...
One other possibility is making a diesel equivalent of the Wright Turbo Compounds, but using an alternator on the power recovery turbines and an electric motor for the supercharger (i.e. a turbocharger with an electric transmssion between the turbine and compressor).
The EPA was never going to not make things stricter. Beyond technological progress upping what's attainable and the continuing need to control pollution, it's a government agency. They're going to fight to not only continue to exist, but to grow their power.
If they have anything to say about it, they're never going to say mission accomplished and fade away content with the standards that they've established and the work they've undertaken to mitigate legacy issues like cleaning up rivers destroyed by generations of industrial activity, leaving a smaller and leaner government agency behind to ensure compliance and address anything new that wasn't forseen previously.
For better or worse, they're going to keep growing, they're going to keep getting more expensive, and they'll keep getting stricter. The trick is to make sure that they're doing the best job that they can, are financially sustainable, and never inadvertantly sabotage a key industry with impossible to reach standards (Which comes close to happening from time to time, such as ballast water standards).
The guidelines and regulations promulgated by the EPA are in accordance with the statute as enacted and amended by Congress. As long as the law exists as written, an agency to enforce the statute will be required.
Leo_AmesFor better or worse, they're going to keep growing, they're going to keep getting more expensive,
Fact check: In constant 2015 dollars the EPA budget has remained quite steady, currently lower than many past years since 1976.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Leo_Ames For better or worse, they're going to keep growing, they're going to keep getting more expensive, Fact check: In constant 2015 dollars the EPA budget has remained quite steady, currently lower than many past years since 1976.
Leo_Ames For better or worse, they're going to keep growing, they're going to keep getting more expensive,
You are right -- they are not growing, they're getting leaner and meaner and more efficient in imposing more regulatory costs on the economy with a declining budget
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
I wasn't accusing the EPA of anything. Just stating the continued need of vigilance over the activities of any government agency.
With the power entrused in them, the expense involved, and the importance of the job at hand, it's of utmost importance that we always seek the greatest bang for the buck.
Treust me they drive my boss nuts. Our repair costs have tripled in the last 5 years. Last year alone it cost him 1.1 million dollars just in DEF repairs on his equipment. He spent 1.5 million on DEF fluids and over 2 Million on EGR system repairs. Oh yeah he wants the idiots that think force feeding exhaust into turbocharged diesel engine is a good thing head on a platter.
Shadow the Cats ownerTreust me they drive my boss nuts. Our repair costs have tripled in the last 5 years. Last year alone it cost him 1.1 million dollars just in DEF repairs on his equipment. He spent 1.5 million on DEF fluids and over 2 Million on EGR system repairs. Oh yeah he wants the idiots that think force feeding exhaust into turbocharged diesel engine is a good thing head on a platter.
Engineers have been making improvements on emissions and performance over the years - if you don't think so go back and review the automotive offerings of the 1970's that multiple times more poluting that today's vehicles as well lagging far behind in the performance aspects of today's vehicles with performance encompassing both power and economy.
The fact that GE and now EMD have, or are getting close to, producing engines that can meet Tier 4 requirements without DEF proves it can be done - what the engineering tradeoffs have been to do this, I don't know; but if it can be done once, it can be done again.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Caterpiller tried the same approach to meet the first proposed standards themselves without going with EGR in 2007 and failed for the OTR industry. The current regulations that my boss deals with require up to 20% of all diesel exhaust to be Recriculatied back into the engine. He has had 10 trucks totaled by engine fires during regeneration cycles going down the road when the trucks DPF filters caught on Fire and literally burned the entire truck to the ground. If you think the EPA is not going to mandate simalar requirements on the Railroad or heavy equipment makers your dreaming. I try and keep our fleet in compliance with the EPA requirements and I am fighting a losing battle anymore. Between them wanting vechiles that weigh 80K lbs to somehow manage to get 15 MPG going across Wyoming and Colorado thru the Mountains to also wanting them to pollute less than they are now. Since the 2000 Model year emissions are reduced 90% already how much is enough for the EPA. When will they stop killing the freight moving industry and the jobs that come from it. Peoples livelyhoods are ruined everyday from the decisons that people that have never worked in the Transportation industry and have zero clue how it works. Yet they still issues regulations that are next to impossible to comply with.
Hate to be a cynic, but you know, they've "got theirs," so what happens to you doesn't count.
The EPA won't be satisfied until the exhaust of internal combustion engines is elemental oxygen and nitrogen, with all the other elements from the fuel/air mix being boxed for disposal.
Shadow the Cats owner When will they stop killing the freight moving industry and the jobs that come from it. Peoples livelyhoods are ruined everyday from the decisons that people that have never worked in the Transportation industry and have zero clue how it works. Yet they still issues regulations that are next to impossible to comply with.
When will they stop killing the freight moving industry and the jobs that come from it. Peoples livelyhoods are ruined everyday from the decisons that people that have never worked in the Transportation industry and have zero clue how it works. Yet they still issues regulations that are next to impossible to comply with.
Are they really killing freight hauling? Or are they just making it a lot more expensive. Which we will pay for at the grocery checkout lane, or we will pay for not-quite-fresh food on account of failed reefer units when we sit down to . . .
We have lost long term employees that are not able to retire due to all the Regulations that have been rammed down our throats in the last 7 years. My boss had to let loose 20 drivers that where with the carrier for 20 years becuase the FMCSA decided that Sleep Apnea is more of a Hazard for a driver than the lack of safe Parking and even with a CPAP machine they could not meet the new guidelines. We as a company lost another 10 long term Owner Operators people that owned their own trucks and leased them to us with the New Emissions Rules. Why they could not afford the repairs to their Trucks when the equipment went off of Warrenty and started to shatter Injector Cups or blow an EGR every single Month.
We also lost 3 shop employees when since we are a Haz-Mat carrier all our Employees had to be able to pass a Federal Background Investigation for a TWIC card. 3 of our Mechanics that had been with the carrier since before my boss took the reigns one of which had been with the company since 1980 where forced out the door. The worst one for us however is the freaking costs of doing business are. Our cost of doing business have almost doubled for maintance insurance of all kinds we spent close to 10 million on insurance for health and Liability last year alone. Then throw in permits and Tolls that are 20X what they were just 15 years ago. For my bosses trucks to go across the George Washington Bridge it is effective Nov 1 now going to be 200 dollars going into the city. We lose money on loads now going into the Northeast. Yeah you heard right we can not cover our costs going into Boston NYC or anywhere into that area with Tolls figured in. Yet there is no effective Intermodal Service into or Out of that area.
Shadow the Cats owner We have lost long term employees that are not able to retire due to all the Regulations that have been rammed down our throats in the last 7 years. My boss had to let loose 20 drivers that where with the carrier for 20 years becuase the FMCSA decided that Sleep Apnea is more of a Hazard for a driver than the lack of safe Parking and even with a CPAP machine they could not meet the new guidelines. We as a company lost another 10 long term Owner Operators people that owned their own trucks and leased them to us with the New Emissions Rules. Why they could not afford the repairs to their Trucks when the equipment went off of Warrenty and started to shatter Injector Cups or blow an EGR every single Month. We also lost 3 shop employees when since we are a Haz-Mat carrier all our Employees had to be able to pass a Federal Background Investigation for a TWIC card. 3 of our Mechanics that had been with the carrier since before my boss took the reigns one of which had been with the company since 1980 where forced out the door. The worst one for us however is the freaking costs of doing business are. Our cost of doing business have almost doubled for maintance insurance of all kinds we spent close to 10 million on insurance for health and Liability last year alone. Then throw in permits and Tolls that are 20X what they were just 15 years ago. For my bosses trucks to go across the George Washington Bridge it is effective Nov 1 now going to be 200 dollars going into the city. We lose money on loads now going into the Northeast. Yeah you heard right we can not cover our costs going into Boston NYC or anywhere into that area with Tolls figured in. Yet there is no effective Intermodal Service into or Out of that area.
So are you predicting that in the near future, very few trucks will bring intermodal and other loads, etc. into NYC, Boston, et al.?
Maybe we'll start seeing more locally/regionally grown produce (seasonally) as in our past? It's fresher and with lower transport costs than trucking cross country or from Central America.
Schilmn for a grocer to get a load of produce in from the West Coast into the Northeastern USA it costs them almost 1000 dollars in tolls alone for NYC or Philly. Close to 1500 for Boston. That is on top of the 2-300 a mile they get charged for the load itself. Just to get a load of Produce into the Northeastern USA anymore your paying a 1 dollar a mile Premium on top of the rate to cover the Tolls on the roads. If you fail to cover them then the carriers are telling you Sorry we do not serve those areas.
The carriers are starting to push back the State of NY just lost a Huge Lawsuit against the ATA for diverting tolls from the Thruway to be used to maintain Canals for boats in the state of NY. The costs to the state in that one is over 70 million in legal fees and the refund that the ATA is demanding is 20 years of tolls on all trucks. If they get it NYS is going to have to pony up close to 15 BILLION dollars plus interest.
My family loves trains as do I however I live in a real world where my grocery store does not have a railroad spur serving it along with my Walmart. My boss is a customer of the BNSF he has over 200 cars in a SIT yard in my husbands hometown that he custom mixes Plastic beads in for his customers. He gets on average 6-7 hopppers a week every week. Yeah he ships that much of his custom blends of plastic beads each week out in 24 ton loads. We handle Medical and food grades in those tank cars. Our customers come to us for one reason we give them a flexible way to get the mixed resins they need. He is struggling to deal with the EPA moving the goalposts on him yet again on the air quality standards. So he is thinking about shutting down his ENTIRE company close to 450 Employees directly employeed we in a normal year buy over 50 new trucks keeping that dealership open. We also buy over 20-30 new trailers a year for Plastic pellets and 20 van trailers and 10 acid tanks. We also support 5 local sports teams and are a major booster of both local High Schools. If we close all that goes away. He is tired of all the Regulations being rammed down his throats or his drivers being seen as Rolling ATM's by the states. We just lost our #1 driver in the company for the next 90 days his offense he had 1 marker light out and forgot to buckle his Seatbelt in Ohio. Those 29 Points on his license just earned him a 90 day vacation from being able to drive. 21 of those points were for the Seat Belt. Now do you see why people like my boss are getting fedup with the IDIOTS in the EPA and in Washington in General.
You can't grow produce when the snow flies, so expect only canned/jarred/frozen veggies and fruit during the Northeast winters.
Shadow the Cats ownerWe just lost our #1 driver in the company for the next 90 days his offense he had 1 marker light out and forgot to buckle his Seatbelt in Ohio. Those 29 Points on his license just earned him a 90 day vacation from being able to drive. 21 of those points were for the Seat Belt. Now do you see why people like my boss are getting fedup with the IDIOTS in the EPA and in Washington in General.
It isn't like seatbelts are a new addition to cars and trucks.
10 years ago the FMCSA made 2 changes to the regulations for OTR truckers. First they mandated that not wearing a seatbelt was a Primary offense meaning you can be stopped by any police officer in any state for not wearing one. Then to make said officers job easier they Required the Makers of the trucks to install either Day Glo Orange or Saftey Yellow Shoulder Harnesses in all drivers Positions in an effort to increase an already 95% usage rate. Fast forward 5 more years to 2011 when the New SAFER metric went into effect for OTR Trucking where everything that happens on the road has a point measure assigned to it. Guess what was deemed more of a hazard for safe driving than driving Fatigued or DRUNK behind the wheel of a CMV and I am not making this one up. If you drive without a Seat Belt on in a CMV it is an Automatic 21 points on your Safer Score for you and your carrier. 25 points on your license gets you 90 days unpaid vacation aka a suspended license. Now here is why drivers are up in arms. DUI in a semi is worth 7 points Fatigued is 5 points for you. A light is 12 Points having an open container of alcohal in your truck is 2 points. Oh yeah a Speeding ticket for myself in my minivan is maybe 100 bucks in my area. This driver that we are using in our office for the next 90 days his seat belt ticket is costing him out of his pocket 650 bucks just for the seat belt portion of the ticket. He got popped in OH leaving their scalehouse just inside the stateline was heading to the Truckstop to get a replacement light had not even pulled back onto the interstate and got pulled over again by the same officer that had just inspected him as he was putting his wallet on the dashboard and reaching for his seat belt. We have the In Cab Video of what happened.
Now you see why this industry is screaming mad at the idiots in Washington they come up with things that screw us over but say it is in the name of safety or the enviroment and we are the ones that get screwed over. You think it is bad now wait til Next year when every driver out there is Forced onto E-logs another FMCSA bright idea and factories railyards are jammed with trucks whose drivers can not legally move at all for 10 hours. That is going to be a real wake up call in America how out of touch DC is with reality. They think this nation and transport runs on a 14 hour clock that can force everyone off the road for 10 hours everyday. Have fun is all I am saying.
Shadow the Cats owner He got popped in OH leaving their scalehouse just inside the stateline was heading to the Truckstop to get a replacement light had not even pulled back onto the interstate and got pulled over again by the same officer that had just inspected him as he was putting his wallet on the dashboard and reaching for his seat belt. We have the In Cab Video of what happened.
Your beef is with Ohio. I am not saying the rules and point assignments are right, but you need to train your drivers on how they are being enforced and entrapped so they can protect your company's interests as well as their own.
Train crew recently got 'popped' for 'speeding'. A Main track that was listed in the employee time table as 25 MPH was redesignated as a Yard track. Crew was busted for doing 24 MPH - Yard tracks are to be operated at Restricted Speed - 15 MPH to be able to stop within 1/2 the range of vision. The locomotive download data was the charging instrument - no weed weasels with radar guns were used in prosecuting the crew. Crew got 30 day unpaid vacation.
by the by - Is there 'Job Insurance' in the trucking industry?
His job insurance is we have him doing the new hire orientation classes for the next 90 days. However what stinks about how they enforce it is when DUI's are worth less than a Seat Belt ticket you tell me which would be worse a driver Drunk behind the wheel or a driver not buckled in with a seat belt. Sorry no arguement from me there why I lost a sister to a Drunk Driver in 1980 she was broadsided even though she was wearing her seatbelt.
Yet the FMCSA thinks a seatbelt is worth more that someone could do that. They have no clue what real life is why should they care they are immune from reality it seems. Heck they get a day off if the weather is bad not people in the transport industry. I have drivers that have more time in snow and ice driving over Donner Pass than the people that right the chain law regs for that state. Or the best one I swear is that driver in California that is in a metal box that can reach over 140 degrees inside in less than 20 minutes in the summer has Zero rights to be cool to try and sleep his Federally Mandated 10 hour break yet if you have a dog your better keep it cool and are exempt from all anti Idle laws. So why is an animal worth more than someone that transports chemicals that can wipe out a city of Millions if he or she has an accident. That is my biggest Head Scratcher for me anymore. Yeah those are some of the fun ones I have to deal with on a daily basis.
Shadow the Cats owner His job insurance is we have him doing the new hire orientation classes for the next 90 days. However what stinks about how they enforce it is when DUI's are worth less than a Seat Belt ticket you tell me which would be worse a driver Drunk behind the wheel or a driver not buckled in with a seat belt. Sorry no arguement from me there why I lost a sister to a Drunk Driver in 1980 she was broadsided even though she was wearing her seatbelt. Yet the FMCSA thinks a seatbelt is worth more that someone could do that. They have no clue what real life is why should they care they are immune from reality it seems. Heck they get a day off if the weather is bad not people in the transport industry. I have drivers that have more time in snow and ice driving over Donner Pass than the people that right the chain law regs for that state. Or the best one I swear is that driver in California that is in a metal box that can reach over 140 degrees inside in less than 20 minutes in the summer has Zero rights to be cool to try and sleep his Federally Mandated 10 hour break yet if you have a dog your better keep it cool and are exempt from all anti Idle laws. So why is an animal worth more than someone that transports chemicals that can wipe out a city of Millions if he or she has an accident. That is my biggest Head Scratcher for me anymore. Yeah those are some of the fun ones I have to deal with on a daily basis.
Sorry to hear about your loss -- not many of us can relate to what you experienced back then.
There appear to be some people who believe that the people who write and enforce the regulations can do no wrong. If the regulations make it cost prohibitive to bring fresh produce to the Northeast, let the people have their "kitchen gardens" as they were permitted under Socialism
I regard that you and I are in agreement that both seatbelts as well as preventing drivers from being impaired by alcohol is of both individual as well as overall benefit to society, but the people with write the laws, write the regulations under those laws, and enforce those laws could benefit from listening to what people with first-hand experience complying with the regulations have to do to bring us the low-cost fresh food we take for granted.
I also hope that people voting for the persons who write the laws are able to hear what you have to say. I consider one of the great benefits of this Forum as I get to hear of your experience along with others operating our trucks and trains, views that I otherwise would never get a chance to even know about. Thanks!
As of Jan 1 of 2017 20% of my bosses fleet can no longer run into CA why can it no longer Run into that state they are not equipped with SCR equipped Engines. That state is the only one in the nation that is requiring all OTR trucks to have that equipment on them. We are still trying to get the freaking oldest trucks out of our fleet however the Resale market for them SUCKS. Trucks my boss paid 150K for 5 years ago he is getting offers of less than 20 grand for now. Why becuase they do not have the right Emissions equipment on them. Yet he has 4 old yard and local trucks that his dad owned when he started the company all are from the early 80's all have mechaincal engines in them. He was offered 50 Grand each for them. Why because they are so reliable that we never have to work on them. We have 2 of them setup to recover trucks that break down in a 3 state area and take the driver a replacement so he can keep on running. As of today we had 10 trucks at our local Dealer for warrenty work on Emission equipment and 2 more in shops with drivers in hotels on the road. This is out of a fleet of 240 Company units and 100 Owner Operators. 5% of our company owned fleet is broken down. 10 years ago heck 5 years ago we had a 2% breakdown rate.
Shadow the Cats The points you mention do NOT agree with point system information from various states for CDL holders. Source?
Those are the SAFER score requirements the Federal System and those can only be seen by those in the Industry who need access to the system. They are used to determine a Motor Carriers so called Rating for service. Your drivers start racking up seat belt tickets you have FMCSA auditors show up demand every single shred of paperwork you have and they crawl over it with a microscope looking for the smallest error to fine you with. The last time we had an audit done it cost my boss 500 Grand for 2 small violations. We had not held on to a prior employees records the required 10 years the person was DEAD there was zero chance he was going to drive again. The other one was a maintance issue where 2 trailers missed getting their tanker inspections done on time by 1 day. Why did we miss on the inspections for those 2 they where at the body shop being fixed in WI 200 miles from our shop and the shop was doing the inspections after the repairs. Did not matter to the FMCSA.
schlimm Shadow the Cats The points you mention do NOT agree with point system information from various states for CDL holders. Source?
(makes hand-wave gesture and intones) These are not the points you are looking for . . .
Shadow the Cats ownerThose are the SAFER score requirements the Federal System and those can only be seen by those in the Industry who need access to the system.
Fortunately, however, we can access the FMCSA system, look at how the BASIC system works, download lists of what the Feds consider 'acute' and 'critical' violations -- and incidentally figure out where a seat-belt violation could produce a "21-point" penalty for a CDL holder. (I'm still working on that last one.)
What she's describing appears to be an irritating Federal semi-secret called 'strict scrutiny', which I hadn't seen applied in the motor-carrier industry before. This means that if certain Federal violations are observed, the Government ... of course, helpfully, as part of its safe enforcement of Congressional law for the good of us all ... may decide to enforce every jot and tittle of applicable law to the letter. Don't have all your required labor-law posters up where short employees can read 'em? Didn't update the poster this year? Part of it obscured by another notice? Be prepared for the statutory penalties, without mercy. I won't even start with the OSHA rigmarole you're likely to see.
If this has happened to Shadow's owner's company, it sheds great light on why he might be considering shutting operations down. I escaped having this done to a company I worked with in the '90s by the skin of my teeth, after having it explained to me by a Federal agent who hadn't quite decided whether to start running us out of business as ADA-violating age discriminators yet. But even with honesty and a will to achieve compliance, strict scrutiny might be applied to you, and G-d help you if it is.
(Prof. Milenkovic, I enjoyed Hardware Wars too...)
So there are two point systems? One by states, who issue tickets and levy penalties, including license suspension/revocation. The second is from the FMCSA (access restricted to industry), which sounds like it is applied to companies. Is that correct?
If it is correct, someone will have to explain where the double secret probation points are assessed, because the FMCSA does not describe anything of the kind.
Here, for example, is one of the FMCSA pages that deals with the CSA program.
RME So I expectantly await the specifics on what programs, BASICs, etc. are involved in this reported heavy penalty for single seat-belt violation.
I have little expectation of that. Usually when rather unlikely claims are made without any evidence or with claims of secrecy, it's because they are empty rhetoric or the claimant misunderstood. Of course, this could be the exception.
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