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Is it time for a new larger locomotive class?

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, November 7, 2014 11:44 AM

episette

I had that idea about 5 year ago and tried to take out a patent on the design of the 6 axle battery tender but that patent is already owned by GE. The battery tender could have been used as extra axles powered by the other 2 locomotive in the consist with prime movers or it could have been charged and powered by the dynamic brakes in hilly terrain. I even considered the possiblity of including small gen-set engine in the battery tender to charge the batteries.

 

GE owns the patent but as far as I can tell it has never been developed. GE is having enough trouble with the batteries in the hybrid AC EVO.

 

Sounds similar to NS 999.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by carnej1 on Friday, November 7, 2014 12:04 PM

episette

I had that idea about 5 year ago and tried to take out a patent on the design of the 6 axle battery tender but that patent is already owned by GE. The battery tender could have been used as extra axles powered by the other 2 locomotive in the consist with prime movers or it could have been charged and powered by the dynamic brakes in hilly terrain. I even considered the possiblity of including small gen-set engine in the battery tender to charge the batteries.

 

GE owns the patent but as far as I can tell it has never been developed. GE is having enough trouble with the batteries in the hybrid AC EVO.

 

 GE's battery program seems to be proceeding along to the point where they are in production and doing test installations in non-vehicle industrial applications:

http://geenergystorage.com/

At the moment though, GE transportation System's focus in the locomotive business is all about the Tier IV compliant GEVO which is make-or-break for them(Just ask Cat/EMD)...I suspect their second major priority is the Natural Gas Dual Fuel system for the GEVO engine so the Hybrid locomotive program seems to be a distant third priority wide.

 There are several patents available online related to the energy tender idea..the one I find is the most one held by an engineer who worked on the Hybrid GEVo..it covers energy tenders and even equipping freight cars with battery energy storage and traction motors:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20100186619

 

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by JayPotter on Friday, November 7, 2014 12:38 PM

A good approach to getting an overview of every stage in the development of GE's AC-traction locomotives is to search for patents under that particular engineer's name.

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Posted by episette on Friday, November 7, 2014 10:16 PM

[quote user="oltmannd"]

 
episette

I had that idea about 5 year ago and tried to take out a patent on the design of the 6 axle battery tender but that patent is already owned by GE. The battery tender could have been used as extra axles powered by the other 2 locomotive in the consist with prime movers or it could have been charged and powered by the dynamic brakes in hilly terrain. I even considered the possiblity of including small gen-set engine in the battery tender to charge the batteries.

 

GE owns the patent but as far as I can tell it has never been developed. GE is having enough trouble with the batteries in the hybrid AC EVO.

 

 

 

Sounds similar to NS999.

The 999 is an all battery locomotive that IIRC operates on its own. The idea that I had was a battery tender/slug that wouild operate in conjunction with 2+ more 6 axle road locomotives in linehaul operations and capture the wasted electricity  from the dynamic brakes. It would never operate on its own.

It would either be powered by the 2 other locomotices in the consist when they had more power than their axles could apply to the rails or it would be recharged by their dynamics on the downhill/stopping and then assist them going up the next grade or when starting.  The use of the genset to charge the batteries would be a last resort.

I assumed that they would be build on the rebuilt bones of a former SD40-2/Dash8C and be a cabless (B-unit) locomotive.  It could use banks of lithium ion batteries as a storge medium, but the weight of old fashioned lead batteries would supply both the necessary weight for traction and keep the cost relatively low.

The most complicated part of the design was the electronics to get it to work with multiple locomtives and how to allow the crew to utilize the power in a most effeciant manner and keep the batteries charged up.

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Posted by CPM500 on Saturday, November 8, 2014 10:06 AM

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/hvso_2006/22_salasoo.pdf

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Posted by episette on Saturday, November 8, 2014 10:48 AM

Thanks for that link. I quickly scanned over it, but I'll read it in depth later today.

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Posted by Farmer John on Sunday, November 9, 2014 7:20 PM
Right on, Chuck
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Posted by carnej1 on Monday, November 10, 2014 11:14 AM

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by nfotis on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:08 PM

Hello there,

the practical limit for years has been nearly 2.000 hp per axle. This limit has been reached with European and Chinese electric locomotives (read: 6.4 MW on four axles, 9.6 MW on six axles).

Note also that electric locomotives are rated for power *at the rail*, not at the prime mover like diesels.

So, a 3.2 MW (4400hp) GE/EMD diesel locomotive puts on the rail less than half of a 6.4 MW electric locomotive.

The extra power obviously is not useful when starting a freight train, but it is useful when going at speeds above 10-15 mph, which is the typical 'critical speed' between the "tractive effort-limited" and "horsepower limited". The Bombardier IORE is the nearest example of an electric locomotive near North American specifications: two-section (each section rated at 5.6 MW on the rail, nearly equivalent to two 4400hp diesels each), 33 tonnes/axle, center AAR couplers and hauling 9000+ tons ore trains in Arctic conditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gR2Xre7xKU

 

N.F.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 7:56 PM

nfotis

The Bombardier IORE is the nearest example of an electric locomotive near North American specifications: two-section (each section rated at 5.6 MW on the rail, nearly equivalent to two 4400hp diesels each), 33 tonnes/axle, center AAR couplers and hauling 9000+ tons ore trains in Arctic conditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gR2Xre7xKU

 

N.F.

 

Note in the YouTube comments and my own car count made the train at 66 cars. 

I doubt the cars are loaded to the AAR allowed maximum of 286K pounds as I have no idea of what the permissible loading is in the counrty where the train is.

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Posted by GDRMCo on Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:16 PM
At 33TAL those units are 198t each, 2t heavier than CSX's ES44AH/CW44AH units.

ML

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Posted by Juniatha on Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:31 PM

@ nfotis

You posted what I'd missed to !   Personally I find this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGSulGeokUg

even more impressive because it involves a stop and restart on the incline ( just listen to those car couplers rumbling along as the train's brakes apply and as they are being released with the locos restarting - wow that's tractive effort at work ! ) .   You'll note how much more energetic the electrics continue to accelerate above immediate starting pace and continue to gain speed .   At first I wondered the howling of gears should be audible from the distance but then I got to think it's rather the wheels on rails - which would indicate rail surface has developed a pattern and should badly need smoothening by a grinding train .

And yet , mind , at the time of writing these locomotives have already become second to latest technology in electric traction .

Regards

 

Juniatha

 

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Posted by nfotis on Friday, November 14, 2014 8:23 PM

I do not remember if I posted the Wikipedia entry on IORE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iore

This should give enough details for a more complete comparison with North American locomotives.

N.F.

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