UP 9000 and steam locomotive performance charts in general

[ValorStorm]

Very early on, a small handfull of 4-12-2s were assigned to the OWR&N, actually bringing them to Spokane WA on the "Washy" line. This didn't last, as they were unsuited for the circuitous route. They were renumbered & returned to the Overland Route. These were NOT the 9500s that spent many successful years on the OSL in Idaho. Never heard of any 9700s going west of Hinkle or 9500s going west of Huntington.

The only known occurance of a 4-12-2 in Nevada & California is the 9000 itself, on its retirement trip to Pomona, which is the run referred to in a following reply.

[De Luxe]

Thanks for the info. I read that the 4-12-2´s were used as regular power on scheduled passenger trains in the 20´s and 30´s until the arrival of the Challengers and Northerns. So I thought they also came down to LA because the grades of southwestern Utah, Nevada and California would be too much for a 4-8-2 to handle with a long heavyweight train. But I guess the 4-10-2´s did this job on this section then. Still wonder why UP had so many problems with their 4-10-2´s although they also had 3 cylinders, and due to their smaller drivers and less drivers they could also operate easier on more routes than the 4-12-2´s...

[timz]

De Luxe

I read that the 4-12-2´s were used as regular power on scheduled passenger trains in the 20´s and 30´s

Anyone else read that?

[ValorStorm]

timz

Anyone else read that?

I've got lots of material on the 9000s (my favorite steam). & I've never come across anything that suggested that.

As it concerns gigantic fast freight steam (larger than 10-coupled), the 4-12-2s were the very first. Ever. Betcha' didn't know that. They predated ALL articulated high speed steam locomotives. HOWEVER, they were good for an absolute maximum of 50 mph.

Regular passenger power? Challengers: Yes. 9000s: Can't find evidence of it.

[Wizlish]

De Luxe

I read that the 4-12-2´s were used as regular power on scheduled passenger trains in the 20´s and 30´s until the arrival of the Challengers and Northerns.

I did a little checking and you asked this back in 2012:

http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/203141.aspx

Firelock76 said he found a reference to disc mains, a 60 mph permitted speed, and steam-heat (and presumably signal) lines on some of the 4-12-2s.  (I presume this was a wartime thing, but haven't read Swengel, the reference that was cited.)   Since we have several experts and enthusiasts on the Nines watching these discussions, I'd like to see definitive confirmation here, and perhaps some quotes or a citation for that "German magazine".   (Hopefully it wasn't Arnold Haas making the speed claim!)

[timz]

Wizlish

60 mph permitted speed

Suspect no one can find a timetable allowing 4-12-2s more than 50 mph.

[Wizlish]

timz

Wizlish

60 mph permitted speed

 Suspect no one can find a timetable allowing 4-12-2s more than 50 mph.

 

Suspect you're right, but Firelock76, quoting Swengel, says 60, as part of a clear improvement over the version of the Nines that was allowed 50 mph.  Since I have not read Swengel (and do not have quick access to other technical books describing late modifications to the Nine balancing) I pass it along as a technical possibility only.  My guess it was not so much a "permitted" speed as one the locomotives might  be able to reach with little or no more destructive augment than their unmodified counterparts at 50... and that crews might perhaps occasionally choose to indulge themselves a bit ...

[Firelock76]

Jumping in and then jumping off...

I was re-reading the Swengel book last night, particularly the section on the 9000's, and to update things a bit Swegel says the 9000's were used on passenger trains, but not where or when.  I suspect they may have been "pinch-hitting", not being used in regular service.

Again, the book is called "The Evolution Of The Steam Locomotive / The American Steam Locomotive, Volume 1, Evolution,"  (it says one thing on the binding and another on the front cover) by F. M. Swengel, copyright 1967.  It's a good one to keep an eye out for at used bookstores and train meets, I usually see a copy or two at the train shows I go too.

By the way, if you've never been to train show (or train meet, as some call them) you should go!  They're a LOT of fun, and there's no telling what you'll find.

To find one near you check the "Classic Toy Trains" website, click on "Resources" on the top bar, then "Coming Events" on the menu  Follow the prompts from on the next menu from there.

You can also find "Coming Events" on the "Resorces" tab on the "Trains" magazine website.

I've never seen volume 2, but I'm lookin'!

And Wizlish, thanks for remembering my "Classic Trains" post.  I'm flattered!

[De Luxe]

I read it in 2 different books. One book was in english language and the other one in german language. Can´t remember the title anymore because it´s a long time ago and I browsed trough these books only quickly while being at a friend. But I clearly remember this info. Both books said that the 4-12-2´s were used in freight AND in passenger service in the 20´s and 30´s before the arrival of the Northerns and Challengers. I can imagine that very well. If a heavyweight passenger train reached a certain amount of cars / a certain tonnage, the UP in those times would probably prefer to have a 4-12-2 pulling that train in the mountains instead of two 4-8-2´s...

[kgbw49]

UP used 2-8-2 Mikados (before they were MacArthurs) in the 1910s on the more mountainous sections of their roads. In the late 1920s, if my understanding of history is correct, there was still a lot of changing locomotives at division points. I guess it is not unfathomable to think that perhaps a 4-12-2 unit was used to get varnish up the Wasatch or over Sherman Hill early in their careers when schedules were not as high speed as in the late 1930s and 1940s. On the Union Pacific timeline in preparation for their 150th Annivesary they have a note for 9000's delivery in 1926 and the accompanying text indicated they were used primarily on freight at 50 mph from Council Bluffs to Green River, which is over Sherman Hill. So some time on varnish in the late 1920s, either as helper power or occasionally as road power, certainly seems possible.