Tests according to social media have identified many problems. Not too much of a surprise that it's proving inferior to the GE developed solution, but we'll have to wait and see if the bugs can be worked out of it enough to justify continuing with a lower cost approach for a portion of the Dash 9 fleet.
TMV's website says "Norfolk Southern set aside two GE Dash9 engines for the DC2AC project, for TMV and CAF to convert from DC traction to AC traction. TMV is working with CAF to create a turnkey traction system upgrade which can be quickly and easily installed. Testing of the first one in Olean New York. November, 2018." Followed by some photos of the DC2AC paint job, IMG_20181017_074211-1024x768.jpg
https://tmvcontrol.com/gallery/
Leo_AmesI actually never even considered NS ending the AC44C6M program anytime soon. I figured it it works, we'll be seeing both types be churned out. The thought in my head, although I've never actually seen it spelled out anywhere, was that the goal here was likely primarily to supplement the AC44C6M program with another option from a different vendor to speed up the conversion of Norfolk Southern's ~1200 strong Dash 9 fleet to AC traction standards. So are you thinking that they're perhaps eyeing the C40-8W fleet? I wouldn't be surprised to see a rebuild plan formulated for them since they remain productive members of their fleet. I've rather figured they'd go to GE though and rebuild them similarly to the 10 C40-8WM rebuilds on CSX that happened just before Harrison entered the picture, thanks to the failures of their own previous attempt at it. Those have performed well so far, although they'll never be any sisters joining them at CSX now. Still DC motors of course, but DC has a place on road assignments for years to come at NS thanks to all the SD60E's and unrebuilt Dash 9's, SD70's of various types, and ES40DC's waiting for their turn to be rebuilt. So I doubt that's particularly objectionable to them.
The thought in my head, although I've never actually seen it spelled out anywhere, was that the goal here was likely primarily to supplement the AC44C6M program with another option from a different vendor to speed up the conversion of Norfolk Southern's ~1200 strong Dash 9 fleet to AC traction standards.
So are you thinking that they're perhaps eyeing the C40-8W fleet? I wouldn't be surprised to see a rebuild plan formulated for them since they remain productive members of their fleet.
I've rather figured they'd go to GE though and rebuild them similarly to the 10 C40-8WM rebuilds on CSX that happened just before Harrison entered the picture, thanks to the failures of their own previous attempt at it. Those have performed well so far, although they'll never be any sisters joining them at CSX now.
Still DC motors of course, but DC has a place on road assignments for years to come at NS thanks to all the SD60E's and unrebuilt Dash 9's, SD70's of various types, and ES40DC's waiting for their turn to be rebuilt. So I doubt that's particularly objectionable to them.
The next step we've been waiting for in the field is a package to convert older DC traction locomotives to AC. Is this it? What else could be a candidate for conversion?
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I actually never even considered NS ending the AC44C6M program anytime soon. I figured that if this alternate design works, we'll be seeing both types be churned out rather than these supplanting the AC44C6M program.
Leo_AmesIf Norfolk Southern goes that route and it saves a fair bit of money, that's going to reduce the savings that this alternate option presumably offers Norfolk Southern over the AC44C6M route. Will be interested to see if a full fledged production run of these happens after the testing program concludes.
I asked NSDash9 on Facebook about the test with modified Dash 9 trucks under one of the AC44C6M's that recently was ended. He said it was successful and that the "modified Dash 9 trucks will most likely be used on the 2019 rebuilds".
If Norfolk Southern goes that route and it saves a fair bit of money, that's going to reduce the savings that this alternate option presumably offers Norfolk Southern over the AC44C6M route. Will be interested to see if a full fledged production run of these happens after the testing program concludes.
I'm also curious now when the day rolls around and Norfolk Southern orders more ET44AC's, if we'll perhaps be seeing their stock of surplus Dash 9 trucks be modified and applied to them for some savings. They have more than they could ever use as spare parts from the dozens of Dash 9's that have already been rebuilt into AC44C6M's, so I imagine they foresee possibly adapting them to another locomotive model in the future.
I wonder if the ET44AC's traction motors are the same as those of a AC44C6M, or at least share a similar footprint? Never have seen much about Evolution series traction motors and don't know what they use other than the ES44DC's.
Well, photos are now out of the first CAF-equipped unit:
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/664919/
Interesting to see how much of the Dash-9 electrical cabinet remains.
YoHo1975Wait, I'm confused, I thought Dash9s and AC4400s had the same Hi-Ad trucks. The Dash 8s used the older truck design.
Leo_Ames Hasn't GE/NS been testing modified Dash 9 trucks under one of the AC44C6M's? Assuming that is successful and is incorporated into later AC44C6M production, that largely eliminates this particular area of savings here.
Hasn't GE/NS been testing modified Dash 9 trucks under one of the AC44C6M's? Assuming that is successful and is incorporated into later AC44C6M production, that largely eliminates this particular area of savings here.
If the truck is found to be structuraly sound following testing and the cost of the modification is less than new then yes, it will work. Thus far no word from the testing and it has not yet been repeated.
Leo_Ames I have to think it's still cost related though for Norfolk Southern to be seriously considering a different style of DC to AC rebuild program for a portion of their Dash 9 fleet. They're not going to be making the mechanical department's job more difficult and costly just for the heck of it.
I have to think it's still cost related though for Norfolk Southern to be seriously considering a different style of DC to AC rebuild program for a portion of their Dash 9 fleet. They're not going to be making the mechanical department's job more difficult and costly just for the heck of it.
You better believe it's all cost related. I cannot see NS rebuilding Dash 9s into anything other than an AC44C6M. But if the AC44C6CF prototypes work then they can go to GE, after the initial 500 unit contract is complete, and negotitate a better package for future rebuilds.
So what of the two new models? They appear to be a continuation of the Dash 8.5 program with many of the same players (and the addition of CAF/AC traction). If their package will not be applied to any more Dash 9s then what else could it be applied to?
On the NSDash9.com facebook site (June 12) is the following description.
Rebuilt with CAF AC traction motors specifically designed to fit the existing Dash 9 trucks, TMV control system, Ganser common rail EUI system, and additional weight.
On the website is additional information:AC traction motor: CAF X.R0.00114AC conversion utilizing CAF USA designed electrical components, new electrical and inverter cabinet.Source: http://www.nsdash9.com/rosters/8520.htmlRegards, Volker
D.Carleton Interesting how things change in a year-and-a-half. Two Dash 9s have been rebuilt into model "AC44C6CF" with traction control and motors from CAF (although I've never known CAF to make its own motors) and other stuff from other vendors. The kicker is the traction motor ostensibly fits in the space of a GE 752. This opens the door to some interesting possibilities.
Interesting how things change in a year-and-a-half. Two Dash 9s have been rebuilt into model "AC44C6CF" with traction control and motors from CAF (although I've never known CAF to make its own motors) and other stuff from other vendors. The kicker is the traction motor ostensibly fits in the space of a GE 752. This opens the door to some interesting possibilities.
CAF (the Spanish parent company) do list traction converters and 'turnkey' traction system development on their website - https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servicios/equipos-traccion-comunicacion/equipos-traccion-convertidores.php (but not motors specifically, so maybe they are being supplied by someone else to CAF's specification).
This new rebuild model is probably cheaper for the reasons you mentioned, but I am skeptical about its reliability, given the failure of the Dash 8.5 program. To me it just sounds like another "parts box" that could be prone to failures and difficult to maintain.
D.Carleton I would have liked to have seen a Dash 8 DC to AC conversion yet, although possible it really is not probable. I work with a number of GE alumni and so far there is no AC traction motor that will fit into the legacy truck. Swapping trucks is cost prohibitive. This appears to be a thorough overhaul and update but not as ambitious as NS' 8.5 venture; i.e. EFI or split cooling. Even so, the Dash 8 is a good machine and hopfully GE has found a way to keep them around for many more years to come.
I would have liked to have seen a Dash 8 DC to AC conversion yet, although possible it really is not probable. I work with a number of GE alumni and so far there is no AC traction motor that will fit into the legacy truck. Swapping trucks is cost prohibitive. This appears to be a thorough overhaul and update but not as ambitious as NS' 8.5 venture; i.e. EFI or split cooling. Even so, the Dash 8 is a good machine and hopfully GE has found a way to keep them around for many more years to come.
And 4005 has apparently caught fire (as GEs sometimes do):
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/613506/
NorthWest Apparently being a NS rebuild prototype is a hazardous thing for a locomotive... https://www.facebook.com/nsdash9/posts/10154713777278843
Apparently being a NS rebuild prototype is a hazardous thing for a locomotive...
https://www.facebook.com/nsdash9/posts/10154713777278843
In response to the mention of CSXT having converted three DASH 8s into AC-traction units, I'm not aware of that having been done. However CSXT does operate three AC4400CWs that GE upgraded in 2008 from standard units into high-tractive-effort (i.e. "AH") units by adding 18,500 pounds of ballast and various other enhancements.
There was an earlier one at Amtrak than the F69AC's. F40PH 202 was damaged in a wreck the magicans at Beech Grove and they are magicans at times with how they can bring back a wreck. Well they took her added a custom AC drive to her complete with 4 AC traction motors and put her back into service. No special paint on her just sent her back into service. It now is at the Publeo CO TTCI AAR test track out of service.
NSDash9 posted that all C40-8's have been retired and sold. Disposition details are in the link.
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fnsdash9%2Fposts%2F10154581443588843&
Someone mentioned in the comments that the new ET44AC's, also mentioned today in another post about several being tested or ready to be delivered to NS, were the killer of these already stored units.
But with the standard cabs already stored before these were delivered, I would think that they'll more likely push aside C40-8W's into storage or further non-rebuilt standard cab SD60's.
The last three GP38AC's are officially now retired, too. Other than rebuilds and potentially N&W's first SD40 rejoining the active roster for a time before donation, that takes care of the last pre-Dash 2 road power (5 SW1001's, built after the introduction of EMD's Dash 2 lineup but of a model introduced in 1968, remain on the active roster).
NorthWestThe first AC4400CW, GECX 4400, rides on Dofasco trucks off of an old MLW unit, so putting AC motors on the standard Dash-8 trucks which have a wider axle spacing should be possible. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=324782
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=324782
7771, 7807 and 7801 are still DC, but designated C40-8WMs on their new decals. They lack inverter cabinets.
The first AC4400CW, GECX 4400, rides on Dofasco trucks off of an old MLW unit, so putting AC motors on the standard Dash-8 trucks which have a wider axle spacing should be possible.
I haven't heard of any such conversions on CSX.
Are you sure that you're not thinking of the new C40-8WM's? Like we've been talking about, these new C40-8W rebuilds did not receive the initially expected AC upgrade.
I'm not even aware of any other major Dash 8 rebuild programs that have happened at CSX, other than this test group being delivered now. The C40-8's are gone rather than be rebuilt for another 10-15 years of service, the B40-8's were partially derated before retirement but never entered a capital rebuild program, and C40-8W's have previously only seen overhauls or wreck rebuildings.
D.Carleton Leo_Ames D.Carleton Leo_Ames Interesting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's. Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it. If so, perhaps this is why NS curtailed their 8.5 program. Or perhaps it was the 8.5 program that prompted GE to give the Dash 8 another look. Since you were skeptical, this should put a smile on your face. :) Saturnalia What was originally rumored to be a DC to AC conversion of a test batch of C40-8Ws is actually just a DC refurb http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=370984#p370984 https://www.instagram.com/p/BPS7GHDhKS_/ I would have liked to have seen a Dash 8 DC to AC conversion yet, although possible it really is not probable. I work with a number of GE alumni and so far there is no AC traction motor that will fit into the legacy truck. Swapping trucks is cost prohibitive. This appears to be a thorough overhaul and update but not as ambitious as NS' 8.5 venture; i.e. EFI or split cooling. Even so, the Dash 8 is a good machine and hopfully GE has found a way to keep them around for many more years to come.
Leo_Ames D.Carleton Leo_Ames Interesting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's. Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it. If so, perhaps this is why NS curtailed their 8.5 program. Or perhaps it was the 8.5 program that prompted GE to give the Dash 8 another look. Since you were skeptical, this should put a smile on your face. :) Saturnalia What was originally rumored to be a DC to AC conversion of a test batch of C40-8Ws is actually just a DC refurb http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=370984#p370984 https://www.instagram.com/p/BPS7GHDhKS_/
D.Carleton Leo_Ames Interesting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's. Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it. If so, perhaps this is why NS curtailed their 8.5 program. Or perhaps it was the 8.5 program that prompted GE to give the Dash 8 another look.
Leo_Ames Interesting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's.
Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it. If so, perhaps this is why NS curtailed their 8.5 program. Or perhaps it was the 8.5 program that prompted GE to give the Dash 8 another look.
Since you were skeptical, this should put a smile on your face. :)
Saturnalia What was originally rumored to be a DC to AC conversion of a test batch of C40-8Ws is actually just a DC refurb
http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=370984#p370984
https://www.instagram.com/p/BPS7GHDhKS_/
CSX did it. There are three Dash 8's floating around that have had AC traction motors in the trucks and kept the original trucks.
Is that the dash 8.5 project? All those ex-conrail units right?
D.CarletonLeo_AmesInteresting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's. Interesting. I'll believe it when I see it. If so, perhaps this is why NS curtailed their 8.5 program. Or perhaps it was the 8.5 program that prompted GE to give the Dash 8 another look.
Leo_AmesInteresting post for some related CSX news, involving what appears to be a similar program to Norfolk Southern's AC44C6M's, except for C40-8W's.
SaturnaliaWhat was originally rumored to be a DC to AC conversion of a test batch of C40-8Ws is actually just a DC refurb
blue streak 1 Find it interesting that class 1s are slowly converting to AC traction motors. If scheduling is done correctly then they would not need to buy another DC traction motor. Part of that scheduling might be sales to other RRs mainly Class 2s?. This could put all DC motor rebuilding companys out of business. Since these rebuilding do not require updated emissions requirements then the fuel saved " may " make them equal to the HP hours of new tier 4 locos ?
Find it interesting that class 1s are slowly converting to AC traction motors. If scheduling is done correctly then they would not need to buy another DC traction motor. Part of that scheduling might be sales to other RRs mainly Class 2s?. This could put all DC motor rebuilding companys out of business.
Since these rebuilding do not require updated emissions requirements then the fuel saved " may " make them equal to the HP hours of new tier 4 locos ?
Except that the Class 1's use older or rebuilt/remanufactured 4 axle units,mostly EMD, which are DC motored for secondary service/switching. Rebuilding these with AC traction systems would not be economical and there really isn't a need. And the Class 2's use a much higher proportion of 4 axle locomotives. So the DC motor rebuilders are going to be around for a long time to come,but will have declining market share..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
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