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EMD formally protests IDOT award to Siemens

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Posted by floridad on Friday, May 2, 2014 2:34 PM

GDRMCo

Atleast rbandr is down to one account...

down but not out. I can stiil spell FEC> everyday and night I play with my toy trails that are one to one scale dew yew??Laugh

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Posted by carnej1 on Thursday, April 17, 2014 11:16 AM

Kyle
I definitally see where EMD is coming from. They designed a locomotive according to the specifications that IDOT laid out, and by doing that, their locomotive was more expensive then the Siemens one that cut corners and doesn't meet the requirements. If I where EMD, I would be furious. Siemens basically cheated. Not to mention EMD is an American company, which makes the situation look worse. This will have an interesting outcome.

In response to the comment about Boeing and Airbus, I would like to say: Airbus is a piece of crap!!! They break down, and aren't passenger friendly. When the landing gear extend it sounds like a piece of the fusalage just tore off. Airbus fly like pigs. Not to mention Airbus has had problems with the planes over riding the pilots inputs and flying itself into the ground. Boeing is a far supior product.

As for spelling, it is easy to make a typo on a computer, and sometimes you forget how to spell a word (which is very frustrating).

 If you switch to Google Chrome as a browser it automatically spell checks anything you type, including replies on web forums.

 Not everyone likes it but the extended spell check feature helps me (I'm a good speller but a lousy typist)..

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by Kyle on Thursday, April 17, 2014 4:24 AM
I definitally see where EMD is coming from. They designed a locomotive according to the specifications that IDOT laid out, and by doing that, their locomotive was more expensive then the Siemens one that cut corners and doesn't meet the requirements. If I where EMD, I would be furious. Siemens basically cheated. Not to mention EMD is an American company, which makes the situation look worse. This will have an interesting outcome.

In response to the comment about Boeing and Airbus, I would like to say: Airbus is a piece of crap!!! They break down, and aren't passenger friendly. When the landing gear extend it sounds like a piece of the fusalage just tore off. Airbus fly like pigs. Not to mention Airbus has had problems with the planes over riding the pilots inputs and flying itself into the ground. Boeing is a far supior product.

As for spelling, it is easy to make a typo on a computer, and sometimes you forget how to spell a word (which is very frustrating).
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Posted by GDRMCo on Sunday, March 9, 2014 12:05 AM

Floridadud, it's 'doubting'. I can understand spelling errors when the wrong letter is used or a letter is missed but a completely off spelling with more letters than necessary is just incomprehensible.

ML

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Posted by floridad on Saturday, March 8, 2014 9:54 AM

Cool posting since 1998 as rrandbBang Head

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Posted by floridad on Saturday, March 8, 2014 9:52 AM

Coolonly u would believe I have omly onr account?Bang Head

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Posted by floridad on Saturday, March 8, 2014 9:50 AM

Coolsafe implies the ability to tell when an error in spelling is the same error in a labor of love. there will always be a doughting Thomas when u need one!Bang Head

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Posted by erikem on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:28 PM

Overmod

I don't think anyone actually does K-14 in their basement any more, if indeed they ever did.

I'd be really, really surprised if anyone did process Kodachrome in their basement. Ektachrome yes, but not Kodachrome.

Last I heard, someone was restoring one of the last K-labs and was going to get the special chemicals made up... but his cost to develop a roll was in the $50 to $60 range, even restoring the machine and its systems as a labor of love.

Interesting..

I remember hearing about the lab that processed he very last roll of Kodachrome made was into their last container of one of the chemicals used in the development process.

- Erik

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Posted by GDRMCo on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:13 PM

Atleast rbandr is down to one account...

ML

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Posted by Leo_Ames on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:54 PM

He can't even spell Kodachrome, so I think it's safe to say that he doesn't. 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:44 PM

floridad

CoolKodachrome while no longer developed and printed by Kodak is far from dead. I have cases of that and developer?

What, D-19 to get foggy black-and-white?  How do you deal with the Remjet?  Forgive me if I fail to see the point of that...

I don't think anyone actually does K-14 in their basement any more, if indeed they ever did.  (In case anyone is wondering what is involved with Kodachrome processing, here is Kodak's guide for processing Kodachrome, circa 2000.)  Last I heard, someone was restoring one of the last K-labs and was going to get the special chemicals made up... but his cost to develop a roll was in the $50 to $60 range, even restoring the machine and its systems as a labor of love.

Sure would like to hear if you have a way to process Kodachrome at home to make color negatives, though.  I don't mind drifting the thread to get that kind of detail!

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Posted by floridad on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:21 AM

Coolkodakrome while no longer developed and printed by Kodak is far from dead. I have cases of that and developer?Laugh

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Monday, February 24, 2014 9:05 PM

NorthWest

SD70M-2Dude
Because CN's operating philosophy is to take 2 or 3 locomotives and load them down to 0.5 HPT and then send it out onto the mainline (optimum asset utilization at its best).   The "hills" I speak of are no steeper than 0.5%, this is the ruling grade both ways from Winnipeg to Vancouver & Prince Rupert.   Both manufacturer's locomotives are having problems and getting worn out, but the GEs have tougher traction motors i guess.  Also the M-2's have an outdated, mediocre and complex computer system which causes the lion's share of their problems.

Thanks, I had forgotten about the relative flatness of CN's Rocky Mountain lines. I was questioning how often plugging a main occurred, and whether or not the costs associated with that were more than adding power.

0.5 HPT, interesting. 

Usually the trains do make it over the road, stalled trains aren't a chronic daily problem, but every week or two one will stall on the worst choke point in a given area.  It's not always a locomotive failure either, it can be a knuckle, drawbar or the dectector tripping on a low-hanging hose.  The more common problem is when the line is congested and the dispatcher lets a coal drag out ahead of a couple Speeds and the Canadian.  The major problem from an operations point of view is not solely the underpowered trains, but the combination of that and the lack of double track, so those well-powered hotshots can't run around the slow drag freights.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 23, 2014 1:15 PM

Kodak negative color film and Fuji negative color film in regular 35mm cartridges are available in Jerusalem camera stores. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, February 23, 2014 12:28 AM

SD70M-2Dude
Because CN's operating philosophy is to take 2 or 3 locomotives and load them down to 0.5 HPT and then send it out onto the mainline (optimum asset utilization at its best).   The "hills" I speak of are no steeper than 0.5%, this is the ruling grade both ways from Winnipeg to Vancouver & Prince Rupert.   Both manufacturer's locomotives are having problems and getting worn out, but the GEs have tougher traction motors i guess.  Also the M-2's have an outdated, mediocre and complex computer system which causes the lion's share of their problems.

Thanks, I had forgotten about the relative flatness of CN's Rocky Mountain lines. I was questioning how often plugging a main occurred, and whether or not the costs associated with that were more than adding power.

0.5 HPT, interesting. 

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, February 21, 2014 6:19 PM

blue streak 1

Paul Milenkovic

Where do you get this thing called "film" that goes into that camera?

In Chicago there is a used camera store that has just about any film you can imagine.  ++  any camera you can imagine  From Union station go east on Adams to first EL line ( State ST ? )  go south about a block and is on west side of Street.  Only camera store in downtown Chicago.  Sorry don't remember name. 

Central Camera 250 S. Wabash.  That's under the L (the first L tracks are above Wells) one block east of State St. just south of Adams,  about one mile east of Union Station.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, February 21, 2014 4:51 PM

Paul Milenkovic

Where do you get this thing called "film" that goes into that camera?

In Chicago there is a used camera store that has just about any film you can imagine.  ++  any camera you can imagine  From Union station go east on Adams to first EL line ( State ST ? )  go south about a block and is on west side of Street.  Only camera store in downtown Chicago.  Sorry don't remember name. 
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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Friday, February 21, 2014 2:53 PM

daveklepper

As a regular user of a 55-year-old Leica camera,

Where do you get this thing called "film" that goes into that camera?

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 16, 2014 3:02 PM

Cool not complaining I am mearly noticning. it is still nice when everyone pulls together. the load is always lighter!Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Sunday, February 16, 2014 1:04 AM

NorthWest

SD70M-2Dude
CN is also having troubles with our M-2 fleet, they are burning out traction motors like crazy.  A software patch to drop the load on the motors at slow speeds was developed, but this only created more problems due to CN's habit of running over-tonnage trains which crawl up hills at 10 mph or less, so when the load is dropped the train stalls.

By doing this, CN is pushing the short time rating on the traction motors. Why?

Because CN's operating philosophy is to take 2 or 3 locomotives and load them down to 0.5 HPT and then send it out onto the mainline (optimum asset utilization at its best).   The "hills" I speak of are no steeper than 0.5%, this is the ruling grade both ways from Winnipeg to Vancouver & Prince Rupert.   Both manufacturer's locomotives are having problems and getting worn out, but the GEs have tougher traction motors i guess.  Also the M-2's have an outdated, mediocre and complex computer system which causes the lion's share of their problems.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by DwightBranch on Saturday, February 15, 2014 10:34 PM

Having an American name on something doesn't mean it has more American components in it or is any better for American workers. For example, if you drive a Chevy Malibu, Cadillac XTS etc. you are actually driving an Opel Vectra, designed in Germany, the engine comes from Mexico, the transmission from Brazil etc.There is no such thing as an "American", German etc. finished good these days, only primary goods such as timber, crops etc. are wholly produced in one country. Part of the reason GM kept Opel, their German subsidiary, after their bankruptcy is that Opel designers are responsible for much of GM's US car content. The Siemens diesel will actually be put together in California with parts produced all over the world if they win this contract, and apparently the main component is a Cummins diesel. If the thing were coming from a low-wage country like China you might have a point, but German workers are actually paid considerably more than American workers. I actually think GE might have offered a better unit than either of these two, but that is a whole new can of worms.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:39 PM

As a regular user of a 55-year-old Leica camera, I probably should not push the all-USA locomotive concept, and should apologize, especially since it has been pointed out  EMD does use some parts of overseas origine in their locomotives.  My main hope is that the locomotive as received is well-worth the funds paid for it, and thus my suggestion to Siemens..

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:07 PM

erikem
While Von Braun and his team scattered through the US aerospace industry did make very important contributions, one being keeping large liquid fueled rockets from blowing up, the majority of the work was done by domestic talent. Examples include guidance systems by Draper, gimballed engines from Rocketdyne, liquid hydrogen technology from various programs and the biggest contributor was the experience from the Navajo, Atlas, Titan and Minuteman programs.

I was not at all serious about the inability of the United States to build sophisticated rocket hardware... or to understand the technology.  I've been associated with it.  I just couldn't resist that comment about 'going to the moon' while simultaneously slamming the Germans.

Goddard's actual contribution to rocketry as practiced for heavy-lift purposes is very slight, in my opinion, especially by comparison with what was being done contemporarily in Europe.  Little motors running comparatively low Isp, with very little sophistication in guiding or control.  There are -- as erikem notes -- far better examples of American practice, for example MX-774 and Polaris (for two very different fuel technologies), and no real need now that the Cold War is won to have to prove the USA was 'first' with liquid-fueled rockets.  (Which had limited battlefield viability, the same way that Jughead was inferior to the dry devices... ask why the quid-pro-quo for Cuba, getting rid of the Jupiter-Cs, was not exactly fought by our foreign-policy establishment -- and aren't exactly happy if fueled with hypergolic propellants and hit with wrenches...)

I don't have to be the spelling police; all I have to point out is that von Braun's team did not need spelling assistance even though English was decidedly not their native tongue.  I keep my opinion of poor or lackadaisical spelling and grammar largely to myself, except to note that all too often badly-mistaken thinking and badly-mistaken spelling seem to go uncannily hand in hand.

Back on the actual topic:  I have not seen a breakdown of approximately 'how much' of the EMD/Vossloh content is actually foreign-sourced vs. the percentage for the Siemens locomotive -- although I have to wonder whether Siemens, as a foreign company, might make more extensive use of domestic suppliers or contract manufacturers for the components, just for the sake of 'politics' (of course, both locomotives are assembled here with our labor).

The point that could have been made about 'foreign-company' participation, if snarkiness had not been the apparent dominant intent, is where the profit from the locomotive-building is re-invested.  It is not as simple as knowing that Siemens profits might 'go to a German company' while EMD's profits go to Progress/Caterpillar.  Some of the Vossloh contribution is surely on a substantial cost-plus basis, and not just commoditized according to the sort of absolute factor-cost cutting that typifies, say, WalMart or that guy at Volkswagen a couple of decades ago.  So there is some of the profit going nominally overseas... be interesting to calculate just how much for each of the two, and decide from that which is effectively 'more American' where it counts...

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Posted by erikem on Saturday, February 15, 2014 6:46 PM

Overmod

AMERICA GOT TO THE MOON WITH MORE THAN JUST WILL POWEWER.

Including a largely German contingent of design engineers.  Just about everything American before that point blew up.  So it is an even poorer example than your previous attempt... Just sayin'...

A bit OT, but couldn't resist...

While Von Braun and his team scattered through the US aerospace industry did make very important contributions, one being keeping large liquid fueled rockets from blowing up, the majority of the work was done by domestic talent. Examples include guidance systems by Draper, gimballed engines from Rocketdyne, liquid hydrogen technology from various programs and the biggest contributor was the experience from the Navajo, Atlas, Titan and Minuteman programs.

OTOH, the Siemens entry does have a fair amount of domestic content.

- Erik

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 15, 2014 3:31 PM

Coolwow. u r now the spelling police. the germans lost the war. we gave them a place to blow up rockets in florida. I know cause I was there. Robert goddards rockets flew quite well thank u it is an eurpean consortium to be assembled here. who helps our economy more. boeing or air bus?Embarrassed

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:34 PM

rbandr

CoolI am speeking strickly historically. do u want the only other passenger engine to be a german company.

And your definition of Vossloh AG (look up the EMD Spirit locomotive reference if you wonder why they are important) is not German?  (This relevant also to Dave Klepper: exactly what 'all-American product" were you referring to? it's certainly not the EMD passenger locomotive involved in this matter...)

AMERICA GOT TO THE MOON WITH MORE THAN JUST WILL POWEWER.

Including a largely German contingent of design engineers.  Just about everything American before that point blew up.  So it is an even poorer example than your previous attempt... Just sayin'...

(And the German engineers could spell in English, too.  There has to be some irony in that...  ;-} )

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, February 15, 2014 1:12 PM

If construction has not actually started, the game may not be over for EMD.   But one way the game would be over, is for Siemens to state:    "While we reject the EMD analyis, we are taking measures to insure that the delivere horsepower of the locomotives we will supply you will be increased by 6% (or whatever) over that stated in our proposal to insure a safety factor that all performance speciifcations will be met or exceededk regardless of test conditions.  We will advise you shortly as to what specific measures we will implement toward this result."

That is what I would do if I were Siemens.

But I too would be happier with an all-USA product.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:29 PM

CoolI am speeking strickly historically. do u want the only other passenger engine to be a german company. is America suffering from 2 many jobs right now. at least some of the lawyers will have jobs after college. AMERICA GOT TO THE MOON WITH MORE THAN JUST WILL POWEWER. Geekedsome americans actually worked here.

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Posted by oltmannd on Saturday, February 15, 2014 11:57 AM

Overmod
But look for the action to come when the first locomotive has been built, and is submitted for testing, and not in response to the letter EMD has written...

Which means that it's game-over for EMD.  Once the first locomotive is built and the others are under construction, it's almost all sunk cost for Siemens and IDOT would have a lot of leverage.  I suspect Siemens and IDOT would wheel and deal.  IDOT could wind up with extra locomotives, cash back,  or Siemens would built compliant locomotives a couple years out, taking and reselling the non-compliant ones later.  But, I don't see a way that EMD wins anything.

I can't see a court argument over the balance speed from using the Davis equation going anywhere - especially if the difference is only 4 mph.  Train resistance from the Davis equation just isn't that precise, particularly since we don't the the real-world drag air resistance of a currently non-existent locomotive on a non-existent train.

Also, It is entirely possible that the Siemens locomotive could gain the required 4 mph (if that's what it turns out to be) by monkeying with the aerodynamics of the locomotive.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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