Did all RS 2's and RS 3's have manual transition ???
Thanks
Gene
SouthernAlco
I suspect that all RS2's(1946-1950) have manual transition. By the time that the RS3 was built(1950), auto transition was available - Even EMD started offering it by 1949. Even if auto transition was the default standard, railroads could order manual, auto-manual, or auto transition. If you can find service manuals for the above models, you should be able to determine what transition features were available.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Taking a look at what I can grab quickly...
The "Transition, Overspeed Warning, and Trip Relay Settings" table on page 830 of ALCO-GE manual TP-400 implies that none of the 1500 HP road switchers was equipped with automatic transition, since there are no columns for these with automatic transition setpoints. This manual covers operation and service on locomotives with 244 engines (1500 HP Road Switcher and 1500 HP Freight, and 2000 HP Passenger.)
Brochure GEA-5442, printed 2-50 and reprinted 8-50 is the ALCO-GE announcement of the "1600 Road Switcher." This brochure mentions transition control nowhere at all, even though it's otherwise quite detailed and fairly extensive.
ALCO-GE manual TP-401 in my collection, which is not the very first edition but rather a slightly later one carrying a date of "RE: September, 1951" (meaning, for ALCO-GE manuals, a new edition) describes both manual transition and automatic transition, with the automatic transition being what is called the "manual supervisory" type where the engineman can enforce manual control. This manual is the operating manual for the RS-3. It is the only piece I'm referencing here that's late enough to use a model number for the locomotives instead of describing them by their horsepower rating and configuration... keeping in mind that this was a later development.
Further narrowing this is a look at my copy of TP-500 which covers mechanical maintenance on road locomotives with the 244 engine. In my copy, the issue date for the manual on the front page is 1/51 although most of the pages are mid-1950. Transition control information describes the "1950 Model 1600 HP Road Switcher," and these pages are all in a block dated 9/50.
This all together tells me that none of the road switchers, no matter the horsepower rating, had automatic transition prior to September 1950. After this, they were apparently available with either manual transition or automatic transition with manual supervisory control.
When the RS-11 was released, it had fully automatic transition with no supervisory control. It's possible that the supervisory control went away late in RS-3 production, but I don't know that.
As a further aside, my 1952 operators' manual for the RSD-5 shows automatic transition with no supervisory control, but this is a bit different animal since there is only one transition event with no field shunting.
Hope this helps.
-Will Davis
Railroad Locomotives - My Blog
Thanks fellows......My question was based on the recent article in " LOCOMOTIVE 2013 " about the 4 DL RS3's that have manual transition. Prior to this I didn't even know that the early diesels didn't have auto transition !!!
Thanks again
Gene SouthernAlco
PS I would like to know about the Southern and Interstate RS3's ???
Units with manual transition tended to bog down MU lashups when run from automatic transition units without supervisory control ( which allowed, in effect, manual operation.) Soo Line traded its 1948 F3s with manual transition in the 60s while hanging onto its 1949 F7s into the 1970s and 80s mainly for this reason. Several other roads upgraded older units at a later date - not always an easy retrofit.
As a reaction to EMD's 1949 line (F-7 &GP-7), Alco-GE made auto transition standard on their 1950 line road-freight units (FA-2) and optional on the RS-3.
If so equipped, the forward axle (under the short nose) was equipped with a DC generator on the engineers' side. This can clearly be seen in pictures.
Supervisory transition was just three wires between the selector lever cam switch and the mu terminal board.
CPM500
I've found the RS-3 TP-800 Operating Manual online here:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/rs3-rs3.html
Under the "Traction Motor" section, it notes that automatic transition is optional.
Though a 42-year engine service career inadequately prepared me to answer the question, 6 years before it started and a few years prior to that, the answer was to a pre-teen railfan, apparent.
Instead of G5s, RS-3s "moved out smartly" with LIRR trains from station stops, and made transition, the series- parallel-shunt to full parallel within earshot; it happened so fast that no human could close the throttle, move the transition lever and reopen the throttle that fast.
PA's did the same; most of the Coast passenger engineers I fired for on the Daylights and Larks would, if the engine was 2 or 3 PA's and an E, reduce the throttle to Th 5 or 6 when the PA's were going thru that event to reduce slack, or momentum, interruptions. at about 25 to 27 mph.
Made a drop once, upgrade, Th 8, Brakeman got the pin; separation. Condr. later gave the "Pin" signal and I complied; the brakeman said we nearly recoupled.....A DL701... my favorite locomotive to run, although both the AC6000's and SD90's jointly come in second. third: FM 1200hp switchers; fourth: Alco S-2s and 4s.
GP9s....a 7 or 8 second drop, circuit realignment, and reload. SDP45's had their transition exorcised, amputated; they were locked into full parallel 'cause they consumed about 23 seconds doin' it....3 minutes between station times....23 seconds at about 40' a second?....SP Peninsula Commute service....the FM Trainmasters were like RS-3's. The Korean War slang for "quick" was "chop, chop." It's what they did.
FP7s, SD7s and 9s couldn't cut the SP schedules demands. The 7-second interruptions of power took too much time...and space.
First, thanks to all who have replied,,as this has been very educational.
efftenxrfe you stated that the DL701 was your favorite locomotive to operate. Which DL701 were you referring to as Alco classified the RS11 and RS36 as DL701's.
southernalco First, thanks to all who have replied,,as this has been very educational. efftenxrfe you stated that the DL701 was your favorite locomotive to operate. Which DL701 were you referring to as Alco classified the RS11 and RS36 as DL701's. Gene SouthernAlco
Probably the RS36. Saw an article discussing the RS36. At the time SP also purchased EMD GP20s to figure out which unit was better. SP bought a lot more GP20s.
However, the RS36s were praised for their quick loading, being able to work a wayfreight in between scheduled commute trains. They could also help drag in a commute if the H24-66 failed en route, with least loss to schedule.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
First, an apology for an omission:
The "upgrade drop" should have read "upgrade drop, Th8, [engine made transition,] brakeman got the pin, condr gave the pin sign....."
Second, an incidental: making drops with S-6 was "rad"; unlike S-1's thru S-4's where when dropping cars, pins were born by merely slamming the throttle shut, then throwing it wide open, on the S-6's the reload time was slow, so with Th8 already "cookin' ", when the pin sign came, just flip a toggle switch off, count to 1 or 2, flip it back on. The switch? Generater Field.
It's similar to: pedal to the metal while you shift from D to N, or putting in the clutch and then, popping it, or back into D after a second or two or taking your foot off the clutch pedal abruptly.
GP9's: 2-hands.... again Th8, and gettin' close to that "give me a pin" signal, with the independent brake make the brake shoes cuddle up to the wheels, on command, slap the independent brake to full application and back to release while dropping simultaneously the throttle quickly, a few notches and then back to Th8...all that needs to happen in less than 2 seconds.
And....Now..... (Victory At Sea theme, please?) the DL701's were the demo set, SP 572? made for long hood forward operation, and the '59 versions, 5840-something to 5860-something engines which numerically were the first locomotives that had low short hoods, nose jobs, Andy Gumps if you are "into" comics an cartoons.
I should look it up to verify, but the RS-32 was the other DL701, wasn't it?
The RS-36, an amazing locomotive, flawed though it was, was the Peninsula Commute relief engine in the mid to late 1960's
Four 7300's, tonnage frightening to four 4-axle locomotives from San Luis Obispo (Bishop en Espanol) up Cuesta. Ritually, fireman went back in the units (engine, locomotives, units) to force reloading after back-transition caused by the increasing gradient.
The RS-36's had Operator's Manuals that said that 15 to 18 pounds of (turbocharger boost) was correct. Bad gauges, I don't know, I saw over 25 psi on the turbo (Boost) gage. Back-transition blew away the diesel engine over RPM limit. The engines shut down, damned shame. Run around the hood reset the over-speed lever....get back to the unit's cab, get fuel pressure up, hit the engine start switch, get enough lube oil pressure before releasing the start switch, put it back "on the line" before you can prevent a stall on Cuesta.Our RS-36's also diminished favorability by placing the independent lever directly ahead of an engr going forward but exactly behind the engineer's butt, when the eng's backing up.
I really hate to be a nit-picker, especially with all of the interesting information being passed along to the rest of us, but confusion between DL-701 (RS11 and RS36) and DL-721 (RS32) is not uncommon. Both DL-701 models were 1800 HP and the DL-721 was 2000 HP. Alco added the DL-721 to the catalogue to have a model to go head-to-head with the GP20.
At any rate, only 35 RS32's were built, NYC 8020-8044 (later NYC/PC/CR 2020-2044) and SP 7300-7309 (later 4000-4009).
thank u fot avery nice link!!!!
To quote farmer O. McDonald at the spelling bee, "Dang." thanks Geiko adv. agency.
Shoulda' looked up the RS32 and RS36.
Woulda' but Les Prelude was on the radio....Ming from Mongo....Flash...Dr Zarkov....
Coulda' and in fact do, apologize for my flipping the DL's.
The RS32, SP 7300's and then SP 4000's are the engines with the turbocharger on steroids and the inconveniently located independent brake and the habit of diesel engine overspeeding when under heavy load then making back-transition.
A thought....I supposed the DL701's SP bought with, we called 'em "chopped noses or Andy Gumps" might have been the first, but delivery and order dates?
Where did they line up with the delivery of SP's last GP9's and SFe's 800's (Alligators) and 900's (SD24's)?
Yes, I Should'a, Would'a and Could'a researched the answer but...another favorite is on the radio.....
My experience is with EMD products circa 1952-1953, when I designed the circuitry to convert FT's from manual to automatic while a summer intern at EMD and then studied load-regulator control on the B&M for my MIT SB-EE thesis. It may be applicable or may not be.
My suggstion is that you look at the control relays (for EMD made originally by Vapor, Vapor Equipment Co. or some such?) These are delay relays to insure that power contacts open and close in the proper sququence. If the right combination of springs and weights doesn't exist, the problems you describe would result. If the company that made these relays is still in business, possibly exact replacements can be obtained, and the old ones sent back for recalibration so you will have spares available should the problem reoccur in the future. Replacing the welded contacts without repair or replacement of the control relays is almost certain to have the problem return.
Modern locomotives do this all with microprocessor - computer technology and automatic transition. Possibly in the long run, if you plan to keep the RS-3, you might wish to look into what possibilities there are for control upgrades if any are available.
Since you asked for ideas, I feel free to offer un-researched stuff.
A 1951 RS-3 would be a very early specimen, possibly fledged before auto transition was standardized. Or maybe a beancounter x'd out the transition as unnecessary, maybe a short line buyer. Maybe during repair, maintenance, or restoration parts weren't available, but modifying to manual transition was resorted to.
A stage/step of transition, call it Step-2 to Step-3 does require unloading of the engine when it is the changing of the circuits from two groups of two serially connected motors connected in parallel...then to four motors connected in parallel, Thus the symptoms you describe could be indicative of screwed up or improvised or defective circuitry...."going from 1 to 2"....usually a TM-field shunt done on-the-fly....
Wiring old enough for Social Security? An Alco-flavor MRS (military useful locomotive} set out at South Vandenburg Missile test range.....When they were ready to retrieve and install it, it wouldn't start when they tried to bring it in, they found the wiring's WWII /fiber insulation was fodder for the local rodents.....Rats.(!)....A.D. 1980.
"welded some contactors together." of an RS-3.....Heresy!....PRESERVE!
Hwew is the fallen flags web site with the Alco RS2, RS3 as well as other Alco mauals
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/manual.html
Ira
I'd like to revise my former recommendations. Before ordering replacement relays, thoroughly inspect the ones you have. Use a regular hardware-store-bought multimeter, that can measure ohms. Check that the coil resistance is close to the same for all relays of one specific type. If one relay coil has a much lower resistance, far few ohms, input to output, then it probably has an internal short. If it measures much much higher, then it has a break. And of course check for a ground, a short between the coil wiring and the frame or core. Anything less than 100,000 ohms is a short circuit for this application. Make certain that the contacts are clean and free from burn marks. When the right voltage is applied all contacts should contact cleanly and disconnect cleanly when the voltage applied to the coil is removed. If you have to bend contacts for this to occur, then that relay should be inspected frequently.
And upgrading wiring to modern insulation standards is a good idea even without problems.
Some later EMDs had supervisory controls. Essentially a 4-speed shifter in the control stand.
This was in a 1970 built GP38AC. Moving the short lever to the right up-shifted, as it were. Moving to the left down shifted, then went into dynamics.
If a relay's coil is shorted or is open, the relay can be rebuilt by a motor repair shop that normally rewinds motor armatures and field coils. Look for one that will repair all types of motors regardless of brand, rather than one dealing with starter motors of a particular brand of automobiles, trucks, and buses. It is a good idea to provide a sample of a relay that doesn't require repair.
Would that be one of the units repowered with an EMD engine taken from E-units (I think they call them "DeWitt Geeps" becasue of the shop that did this). I don't know if that changed the electrical controls.
Can you let us know when everything works reliably again? We really wish the best for the old gal. I recall a cab ride in a B&M RS-3 from Winchendon to Boston when I was working on my SB thesis at MIT. The test locomotives for my project were GP=7's 1567 and 1568, which were testing ideas to be used in the GP-9, but when I had an opportunity to ride an RS-3, I grabbed it.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.