Seeing how many of these engines were retired in the early 1980s while mostly middle aged would it have been possible let alone feasible to re-engine them with either EMD or GE engines similar to what was done with the ALCO RS3s when many of them had their 244s replaced with 567 engines from EMD?
There were probably other factors involved. If you were the guy responsible for locomotive maintanance it was probably a lot easier to stock parts for one make of engine than two, so you'd go with the one that had market dominance, in this case EMD. Also, aside from the RS-3's you mentioned I've read that re-engining ALCO locomotives really wasn't all that successful no matter who tried it. Still, as I understand it the ALCOs were pretty good locomotives IF you maintained them the way you were supposed to. Witness the re-invigorated Susquehanna that got very good service from their ALCOs in the late '80s through the '90s.
That makes sense, but there is a couple of things I have to get out of the way.
1, Didn't GE start improving their FDL series engine by the time the ALCO Century diesels were being retired?
2. What about MLW? They still existed during the time those ALCOs were still in service and they also still built ALCOs for CP, CN, BC, so how come no parts came from them? The railroads didn't like getting foreign parts for their engines?
Both good questions, but I'm not sure of the answers. I know MLW soldiered on producing ALCO designs for a while, then sold the designs to India, where ALCO type locomotives are in use today. As for GE, when ALCO locomotive started getting a bad rep in the early 60's they severed the partnership and decided to go it alone, they didn't want their own reputation being tarnished. Perhaps someone who's a bit more hip to diesel history can give you more info than I can. Anyone out there?
THEKINGOFDISTRUCTION That makes sense, but there is a couple of things I have to get out of the way. 2. What about MLW? They still existed during the time those ALCOs were still in service and they also still built ALCOs for CP, CN, BC, so how come no parts came from them? The railroads didn't like getting foreign parts for their engines?
You can still buy brand new parts for the Alco designed 251 series engine from Colt Industries (successor to Fairbanks-Morse) who now owns the rights to the engine design. Colt is based in Beloit, Wisconsin.
THEKINGOFDISTRUCTION Seeing how many of these engines were retired in the early 1980s while mostly middle aged would it have been possible let alone feasible to re-engine them with either EMD or GE engines similar to what was done with the ALCO RS3s when many of them had their 244s replaced with 567 engines from EMD?
Repowering with another manufacturer's engine is much easier said than done, The engine blocks have different dimensions, and the frames were designed to match the engine blocks. Once you have figured out how to fit the engine in the frame, next is how to connect it to the generator or alternator. If you use the original generator, you have to make sure the shaft lines up perfectly. If on the other hand you replace the generator with one that matches the engine, you still have to modify the frame to support it in the correct position. Not to mention all the other modifications to oil lines, coolant systems, electrical wiring and other appliances and controls. And at the end, you still had a lot of old components to maintain that didn't match the GM/GE hordes.
While there were a number of other similar repowerings done ca1960 as experiments, once each railroad found out how much it cost they concluded that it made more sense to just buy new locomotives. Of course if you were bankrupt, the immediate cost of repowering could be lower than buying new, and there might not be a long term future to worry about.
Well that pretty much killed that idea with the big ALCOs.
Surprised to see that parts are still being built.
As far as ALCO parts still being made, I suppose as long as there's a good market for them and there's money to be made someone'll manufacture them. I looked at a classic car magazine once and I was amazed at how many outifts were manufacturing parts for car restorations, looked like a real growth industry!
There are not a lot of ALCO locomotives around, but there are several lines that have them, maintain them, and make them work for a living.
In this part of the world you have the A&M RR which is pretty much all ALCO power:
http://www.amrailroad.com/ A&MRR runs from Monett, Mo south to Van Buren,Ar with HQ in Springfield,Ar.
The West Tennessee Railroad line is from Fulton,Ky through Dyersburg,Tn to Jackson Tn. Another corporate cousin is the Tennken RR, and the South Central Tennessee RR.
The lines have been the home of a number of ALCO locomotives. The route from Corinth, Ms to Jackson,Tn and Fulton,Ky was bought by the Southern Rwy about 87/88 and the purchase included the Jackson,tn to Poplar Corner,Tn. as well.
Fulton,Ky is/was a division point on the IC RR (now CN). I have not read much about it, but the link from Corinth, Ms . (nee: GM&O/IC/ICG now BNSF) , and on to CN at Fulton,Ky (and on to Centrallia,Il) was to be up graded to better class of line, and part of the Norfolk Southern's Mid America Corridor. Th portion from Jackson,Tn to Kenton,Tn. was I think sold to the Gibson County ,Tn. (nee M&O RR) and operated by the WTN ( started about 1984/85(?.)
Aren't these Alco designed engines still in use in boats, ships, and other non-railroad applications?
I have not seen marine applications, but V12 251's power the NASA 'crawler' that move the rockets from the vehicle assembly building to launch pad 39A and 39B. IIRC, there are 4 of these power plants in each of the crawlers.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Look at the Donjon Marine site. They have a large tug called the "Atlantic Salvor" powered by 2 16-251's that came in handy a couple of winters ago to rescue a couple of tankers without power off Cape Cod.
The ALCo 251 is the least problematic part of the locomotive. Trust me, I have tried (and failed) killing them. Whenever I see a new design engine it doesn't take long to see many ALCo 251 ideas incorporated. Many retired ALCo's wound up 'donating' their primemover to a marine application. Yes, parts and complete 251s are still made by Fairbanks-Morse Engine in Beloit, Wisconsin. They still have one week and two week training courses for engine maintenance. When I went in 2006 our instructor was a retired ALCo employee.
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jrbernier I have not seen marine applications, but V12 251's power the NASA 'crawler' that move the rockets from the vehicle assembly building to launch pad 39A and 39B. IIRC, there are 4 of these power plants in each of the crawlers. Jim
The crawler transporters are each powered by a pair of 16 cylinder 251s. I IRC there are three crawlers.
I wonder why they haven't tried to reintroduce the 251 in a modern EPA approved form?
Or maybe, if Bombardier really is looking to get back in to North American Freight, they are.
O.C there were anumber of RS-3s (mostly owned by Delaware & Hudson) rebuilt in the 1970's by Morrison-Knudsen with brand new 12-251 engines and new electrical systems. Essentially they were remanufactured to C420 specs...
One of the Australian iron ore haulers,BHP Biliton had a number of C636s rebuilt as C36-7s with new GE FDL 16 engines...
BC Rail rebuilt a small fleet of RS18s with CAT engines in the late 80's/early 90's and CP rebuilt a single M636 with a Cat engine...
As far as the US Class 1 Century fleets only Conrail and Norfolk Southern (N&W) still rostered any by the early 80's and both roads were purchasing lots of new power....
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YoHo1975 I wonder why they haven't tried to reintroduce the 251 in a modern EPA approved form? Or maybe, if Bombardier really is looking to get back in to North American Freight, they are.
I seem to recall reading that Fairbanks Morse does have an upgrade package for the 251 that is at least Tier 1 compliant (though I doubt anyone will make the investment to try to develop a Tier 3 or 4 version)
As far as Bombardier, they haven't built a 251 powered locomotive in about 30 years and they don't own the rights to the engine line so I don't see why they would offer a new build Century derivative..
You may as well ask if FM is going to start building Trainmasters again (actually, a guy named Tom Blasingame who is trying to interest the industry in his Steam-Electric locomotive designs also approached FM about using Opposed Piston engines for Dual fuel (LNG and diesel) locomotives)...
Just to be clear the 251 ownership chain went from Bombardier to GE when GE bought the rights to the Bombardier locomotive line (1988) to access the Canadian locomotive market; something which became unnecessary after NAFTA. At least one of my former co-workers went to 251 class in Erie, PA during the era of GE ownership. GE sold the 251 stationary rights to FM and the locomotive rights to NRE. A few years ago FM acquired the locomotive rights from NRE.
As for upgrades to the 251 design most of those are happening overseas. One company has introduced a cast crankcase for the 251 as opposed to the traditional fabricated crankcase.
So that's what happened to it. Well at least the 251 is still alive.
Alco 251's power several Great Lakes vessels, including the Algoma Central tanker Algosar and Lower Lakes' Robert S. Pierson, Calumet, and Manitowoc.
In addition, 20 cylinder 645's power many vessels (Particularly in the American Steamship fleet where it was a very popular engine choice for their 1970s and early 80's vessels that modernized the fleet) and Interlake Steamship's Stewart J. Cort (The first 1000' footer).
And Fairbanks Morse's Opposed Piston engines were a popular choice on Canadian freighters in the latter 1960's when they left geared steam turbines behind up until the early 1970's. Most are gone now, but Algoma Centrals' Algorail and Algoway (Likely in their last few days of active service), Lower Lakes' Manitoba, and Vanguard Shippings' J.W. Shelley (The last surviving Seaway max freighter powered by OP engines) remain in service. Their 4 OP engines working in tandem sure sound nice.
And US Steel repowered an early 1900's 600' steamer in the 50's with a Baldwin powerplant. She was retired 30 years ago during the recession and drastic decline and shrinkage of the domestic steel industry.
And 251's and FM OP engines remain in common use as emergency generators onboard US Navy ships (And EMD powerplants are also common). Alco 251's are also in common use for emergency generators at such things as nuclear powerplants. Last I knew, Taiwan still had two WWII fleet subs in service that retain their OP main powerplants (A single example each of the Baloo and Trench classes, followups on the Gato class, and the last two WWII era submarines in active service). Tons of 567's and 645's remain in regular use on tugboats across the nation.
FM's OP engines and Alco's 251 were both far more successful in non rail applications and remain in widespread use with plenty of parts available. They have many years of life left and there won't be any difficulty sourcing parts for many more yearts.
carnej1 THEKINGOFDISTRUCTION: Seeing how many of these engines were retired in the early 1980s while mostly middle aged would it have been possible let alone feasible to re-engine them with either EMD or GE engines similar to what was done with the ALCO RS3s when many of them had their 244s replaced with 567 engines from EMD? One of the Australian iron ore haulers,BHP Biliton had a number of C636s rebuilt as C36-7s with new GE FDL 16 engines...
THEKINGOFDISTRUCTION: Seeing how many of these engines were retired in the early 1980s while mostly middle aged would it have been possible let alone feasible to re-engine them with either EMD or GE engines similar to what was done with the ALCO RS3s when many of them had their 244s replaced with 567 engines from EMD?
In the case of the BHP C36-7's, these weren't merely Alco's that were repowered with a GE prime mover. All that was reused from the Alco/MLW units was the frame, trucks, traction motors and in some cases the fuel tank. Everything on top of the frame was replaced and an entirely new cab and carbody installed.
Bryan Jones
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