Can anyone provide me with a range of cost to purchase a new locomotive for passenger rail use?
I know there are a lot of things to take into consideration.
Are any electric locomotives built in the U.S. with FRA safety standards that are off the shelf? If so, what is the cost range per locomotive? What is the cost range for electric locomotives purchased from foreign companies?
Are diesel locomotives that are built in the U.S. adhere to FRA safety standards? Is this off the shelf technology?
What is the price difference for ac vs. dc power in a diesel/electric engine?
Basically I want to find out how much an all electric and how much a diesel/electric locomotive would cost to purchase for a commuter railroad?
Amtrak recently ordered 70 Siemens ACS-64 electric locomtives at a cost of $6.66 million per locomotive. This locomotive will be built in Sacramento, California, but Siemens is a foreign company.
Yes, all locomotives built in the U.S. adhere to FRA safety standards.
The price difference between an AC and DC diesel/electric locomotive is about $1million.
MBTA recently purchased twenty, four-axle, HSP46 AC diesel/electric locomotives for $5.75 million each and Florida Tri Rail just ordered ten Brookville Equipment DC diesel,electric locomoties for $4.2 million each.
That's really helpful, thanks. Why do you think the MBTA purchase price was $1.5M higher than the Tri-Rail purchase? Also, do fully electric locomotives generally cost more or less than diesel or diesel/electric locomotives? I know the Amtrak locomotives were not off the shelf technology because they had to be modified to meet FRA standards, that's the reason for the higher price.
One of the reasons that straight electrics cost more is that they are rarely off-the-shelf designs and involve short production runs. The MPx series from MPI is a fairly standardized design so that helps keep design costs down. The HSP46 may cost a bit more since it involve some redesign work to fit the GE engine that will be inside.
Kyleje That's really helpful, thanks. Why do you think the MBTA purchase price was $1.5M higher than the Tri-Rail purchase? Also, do fully electric locomotives generally cost more or less than diesel or diesel/electric locomotives? I know the Amtrak locomotives were not off the shelf technology because they had to be modified to meet FRA standards, that's the reason for the higher price.
The MBTA ordered 4300 HP AC traction locomotiives with the same diesel engines as the GE Evolution series freight locomotives. I'm not sure about the specs on the Tri Rail units but they will have DC traction motors and less Horsepower...
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AC doesn't add 1 million to the pricetag these days. The difference between DC and AC has narrowed signifcantly over the past 15 years.
Leo_Ames AC doesn't add 1 million to the pricetag these days. The difference between DC and AC has narrowed signifcantly over the past 15 years.
True. But also note that the Brookville units will use a smaller Diesel prime mover ( a 20 cylinder MTU high speed engine with smaller displacement than a GE or EMD engine) than the GEVO powered MBTA units.
Thanks for the info, this is all really helpful.
It appears that all of the diesel or diesel electric locomotives are constructed and assembled in the U.S., entirely by U.S. companies, is this correct?
Also, it appears that electric locomotives are assembled in the U.S. (due to buy America provisions), but are manufactured in foreign countries by foreign companies, is this correct?
Kyleje It appears that all of the diesel or diesel electric locomotives are constructed and assembled in the U.S., entirely by U.S. companies, is this correct?
This may or may not be true, there are non-North American parts used in both GE and EMD freight locomotives. The Brookville locomotives for Tri-Rail are using German manufactured diesel engines.
Yes, if they are funded by the US Government in part. The NJ Transit ALP-46A and ALP-46DP electric locomotives will be assembled in Germany as only NJ money went to pay for them, by doing this NJ got a lower price. I would expect that there would be some US parts in them like the ACSES Train Control system. The problem with sourcing electric locomotives over here, is the very low production quantities.
It all depends on type of locomotive and options.
NJT's PL42ACs I believe were around $4.4M. They were built by Alstom in Hornell, NY.
The ALP-46A's were around $7M. They were built in Kassel, Germany by Bombardier.
The ALP-45DP's are $12M. They are also being built by Bombardier in Kassel.
And just for show, here's a photo (not mine) of NJT 4501 being placed on a flatcar for shipment to TTCI in Pueblo, CO. It arrived at Port Newark on Friday, was placed on the flatcar today, and should be heading West in the next few days.
Electric locomotives are built outside the US because there are no American companies that produce electric locomotives. The reason for their high cost is because they are produced in limited quantities, and in the case of NJT's (and AMT's) Dual Powers, they are completely new technology.
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With the extra cost for electric locomotives in mind, does anyone have a general range on how much it costs to construct constant tension catenary per mile in the U.S.? I know it's expensive, but it would be nice to quantify any fuel savings with the increased cost for an electric passenger rail locomotive.
ns3010 It all depends on type of locomotive and options. NJT's PL42ACs I believe were around $4.4M. They were built by Alstom in Hornell, NY. The ALP-46A's were around $7M. They were built in Kassel, Germany by Bombardier. The ALP-45DP's are $12M. They are also being built by Bombardier in Kassel. And just for show, here's a photo (not mine) of NJT 4501 being placed on a flatcar for shipment to TTCI in Pueblo, CO. It arrived at Port Newark on Friday, was placed on the flatcar today, and should be heading West in the next few days. Electric locomotives are built outside the US because there are no American companies that produce electric locomotives. The reason for their high cost is because they are produced in limited quantities, and in the case of NJT's (and AMT's) Dual Powers, they are completely new technology.
Also note that the PL42AC is abased on a Eurpean design..Alstom's PRIMS series of locomotives, but built in the US.
The MBTA was going to purchase locomotives from Vossloh, another European builder, the first few units would have been built over there with the rest of the order assembled in the U.S, but that did not meet the "Made in the USA" requirement for Federal funding so insted the T is buyin MPI locomotives with GE engines...
I appreciate the information. I have a few additional questions.
The first is does an engine electric or diesel/electric remain on idle when not pulling passengers? If it does how much electricity/diesel does it use i.e. efficiency costs?
What is the average cost for either of these types of engines to travel alone for 10 miles? With the addition of 1 - 8 cars of passengers? The Ohio Hub study proposed bi-level cars to carry 80 passengers. Is the normal type of passenger car?
I also, read someplace that the carrying capacity for 1 rail was 8 times that of 1 lane of highway each way. Where can I verify this ratio?
Thank you.
Assuming that that there is a self-contained HEP unit on board, the diesel will remain at idle during station stops and short layovers. Electrics will draw no current while standing still except for any needed for lighting and heating/air conditioning on the train.
A bi-level coach for 80 passengers? Suburban bi-levels in Chicago can handle 155 passengers and the long-haul bi-levels built for C&NW in 1958 for the "Peninsula 400" and "Flambeau 400" could handle 96 passengers.
That is part of the answers. How much does it cost (watts/hour or whatever unit you chose) does it take to move an electric engine? How much does it cost for a diesel/electric engine to go 1 mile versus 100 miles? What are the added costs for 155 bilevel passenger cars? Thank you.
The questions you seem to be asking are not one set of numbers nor a fixed formula since the power to move any train is the result of many factors. Such as the total size or weight of the train, the expected speed required, the grade and curves of the track as well as the quality of the roadbed and other limitations of road crossings other traffic and single or multiple tracks available and weather conditions.
Some accounting data has been helpful on the fuel burn rates of EMD F40 locomotives which are average for many locomotives and do provide some benchmarks for diesel fuel use. Power settings: Notch 1 at Idle 65 gallons per hour: N2 78 gallons per hour; N3 97 gallons per hour; N4 103 gallons per hour: N5 123 gallons per hour: N6 152 gallons per hour; N7 174 gallons per hour and Notch 8 at full power 192 gallons per hour.
Metro North F40's have the HEP (Hotel Power) electric generator to supply lights and air conditioning to the passenger cars directly linked to the main diesel so it runs at full power at all times even when stopped at stations. Whereas NJT locomotives use smaller CAT diesel generator sets for HEP and the locomotives can run at idle when stopped so they have a fuel cost savings.
Tri-Rail in Florida have some of the 188 seat Diesel Powered double level self-propelled coaches which do not require a locomotive and burn about 1/3 less fuel per hour with the same consist as a locomotive hauled train. Unfortunately the firm which built them went out of business and another firm which did buy them has not yet started new production (U.S Railcar in Columbus Ohio).
I hope some of this is helpful to you since I am not quite sure of what your plans may require for such detailed operational costs and I am not too sure that individual data may be available except from a locomotive supplier or builder ... all the best to you.
The second part of your question of the cost of 155 bi-level passenger cars is again a function of the use and interior requirements of the cars.
If these are to be maximum seating 3 & 2 commuter cars with ADA handicap access then the Bombardier GO style bi-level cars for this large an order should be priced in the range of $ 4.25 Million each with seating for about 162 passengers per car or a per seat cost of $26,235 per car. If these cars are to be use for longer travel time and distance (70 miles plus) more leg room pitch in seating with 2 & 2 upholstered comfortable chairs the costs will be higher and the per seat costs will also rise. Bathroom facilities, bike racks, wheel chair space and other special use areas such as snack bars and table seating will also reduce the number of passenger seats available and increase the per seat costs of the coach cars. All of these cars would also require a locomotive to move them at added cost.
The double deck self-propelled coach cars used on Tri-Rail in Florida have 2 & 2 upholstered comfortable chairs with ADA space for wheel chairs and ADA restroom space in the cars. The passengers love the space, comfort and view from these cars which have more headroom than the GO style bi-level cars which are also available on Tri-Rail service. The self-propelled coach cars have a higher seating capacity than the GO style cars and if again available in production they would be highly desired to expand the fleet passenger capacity with fewer cars and costs of operation.
Again I hope this adds to your understanding and feel free to seek added information.
In North America anyway. Until recently all EMD engines sold here were the product of a plant in London, Ontario, but there is a plant starting up in Indiana to supplement production. A few years ago one batch of EMD orders was assembled by a Mexican subcontractor; I've lost track of the status of that operation. GE assembles its domestic sales at Erie, PA. Both manufacturers have assembly operations overseas serving other markets.
Various companies are selling heavily remanufactured engines for use in transit operations or to meet tighter emission standards. As far as I am aware, those are all domestic operations.
statsguy That is part of the answers. How much does it cost (watts/hour or whatever unit you chose) does it take to move an electric engine? How much does it cost for a diesel/electric engine to go 1 mile versus 100 miles? What are the added costs for 155 bilevel passenger cars? Thank you.
A partial answer. It's the operation of the train that determines the energy consumption, not the type of motive power. It require a certain amount of energy to move a train over a distance at a speed. The locomotive merely converts energy provided to it into work to move the train.
Overall, a diesel electric locomotive is a more efficient "energy converter" than electrics, if you account for fuel burned to work produced. Remember, for electrics, you are generally burning coal or natural gas to make electricity and you have line losses from the plant to the locomotive.
Another generalization is, the faster you go, the more energy per mile you consume. This is because of aerodynamic drag which increases with the square of speed. If you are able to accelerate faster with an electric, then you will travel more miles at top speed and consume somewhat more energy over the whole trip.
The only energy efficiency advantage the electric has over the diesel is the possibility of regenerative braking.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The electric system has the added costs of the construction of the overhead wire or third rail transmission systems, the maintenance costs, crew, wire service equipment and inspections. Plus the cost of the power consumed ... In 2006 the NJT noted that power costs had increased by 14% from the prior year so unless you can justify the cost of electric locomotives with high use and many trains (Over 6 to 8 per hour) the Diesel is most likely a cost advantage to your needs.
WALT1ORO[F40] Power settings: Notch 1 at Idle 65 gallons per hour: N2 78 gallons per hour; N3 97 gallons per hour; N4 103 gallons per hour: N5 123 gallons per hour: N6 152 gallons per hour; N7 174 gallons per hour and Notch 8 at full power 192 gallons per hour.
I believe so since all of the locomotives in the accounting study were in Passenger service. The results of course are average use and individual results will vary depending upon the route, the crew members and the factors of load and weather ... ie: rain, snow, leaves on the rail or dry track, etc.
I have read that the carry capacity of a single lane of 12 ft. wide (3.7 meters) Freeway is 2.000 cars per hour, two lanes 4,000 etc. all other roads are lower in car capacity per hour.
If you have a double track railroad line with 7 car train sets dispatched on 5 minute intervals you will have 12 trains per hour in each direction. If the 7 cars can seat 162 passengers each, the total could be as high as 1,134 passengers per train (For simplicity we can use 1,000 passengers). Therefore, the total number of passengers would be 12,000 each way or 24,000 all together. (Actual 13,608 times 2 = 27,216).
It would take 12 lanes of Freeway or more to equal the carry capacity of a double track railroad line per hour, which is a much greater cost to build and maintain than the railroad.
These are the firms which come to mind that state that they make new locomotives in the USA.
Republic Locomotive in Greenville, South Carolina manufactures the RX500 AC traction switch engine for yard or short line operation.
GE Transportation in Erie, Pennsylvania still state that they make new Diesel-Electric; Electric and Diesel locomotives.
Alco Locomotive Company of Mt Vernon, Illinois states that they make new Diesel-Electric locomotives.
Siemens Mobility Div. U.S. in Sacramento, California states that they make Diesel-Electric and Electric locomotives.
U.S. Railcar LLC of Columbus, Ohio is the firm which bought the rights, tooling and materials of the former firm which built the self-propelled coach trains in service on Tri-Rail in Florida. They state that they are prepared to provide self-propelled powered and non-powered coaches for heavy rail passenger operations, per your order.
Again catenary wire cost per mile is a function of the number of tracks to be covered, yards, shop facilities, single or multiple main line tracks, number of bridges, phase gaps needed and source of power facilities.
Trains draw a lot of power and the electric supplier must have capacity to meet those needs and ability to access the rail lines where needed with sub-stations drawing power from high voltage transmission lines.
Costs range from about $ 5 Million to $ 8 Million per mile from the information I have on recent (2009) bids to extend electric catenary service. These costs did not include the maintenance, repair equipment and inspection expenses needed to keep the catenary operational.
There is an article in the December 2011 issue of the U.K. Railway Gazette where they are discussing the cost of a new "Wire Train'" to install up to 1 mile (1.6 km) per day at 35 Million Pounds. There was another article in 2010 which covered the electrification and signal up grading of the Great Western lines from London, Reading, Oxford, Newbury, Bristol to Cardiff. A distance of 163 miles (262.3 km) for 5 Billion Pounds. That is not to say the same costs would apply to operations in the USA, but it does give you added data on costs to do electric catenary.
Costs will be much higher for electrification if none has been done in many years. In Germany where they have been steadily electrifying parts of their system that lack it, the recently started Reichenbach to Hof mainline electrification is coming in at €120 million for 72 km of double-track (€2.68 million per mile) including the Göltzschtal viaduct (1883ft long, 256ft high). The largest brick built bridge in the world.
Göltzschtal Viaduct
A mistatement was made on this thread that fuel is burned more efficiently in modern diesel than in an electrical generating station. Another was that Metro North F40's run at full power while at staton stops to insure hotel power.
1. Economies of scale and ability to run turbines at optimum load are characteristic of both oil-fired and coal-burning power plants, and the electricity they produce is definitely produced at greater efificency than is done in individual diesel locomotives, and the losses in transmission, with modern catenary and sub-stations, particularly when high voltage transmission is iused, are small compared to this greater effiiciency.
2. The Metro-North locomotives in question run at constant SPEED (RPM) but not constant power. And so they need much less fuel at a station stop to maintain that speed than when accelerating a train or even maintaining an even speed.
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