With regard to the fast-good-cheap triangle, have there been instances with EMD and GE in which a railroad that was inclined to place an order with one of those manufacturers ended up ordering from the other manufacturer because the latter manufacturer could deliver the locomotives more quickly?
It's also worth remembering that GM was trying to stave off financial issues for much longer than just the past couple of years and EMD suffered because of it.
We shouldn't conflate engineering issues and corporate issues with regards to recent EMD history and what they and their platform are capable of.
The axiom of Fast, Good, Cheap, pick 2 would seem to apply in Locomotive manufacture just as it does in Electrical and computer engineering.
Exactly, nobody is suggesting that Cat isn't the underdog. I'm not trying to claim that EMD is perfect and it will all work out and they will be number one and life will be good.
I'm merely saying that that which was rumor and fanboy speciulation has now made it from named EMD sources into industry magazines. It is no longer just rumor.
And it took big monstrous GE years to take over for GM, Money didn't solve their problems immediately then so I don't think money is going to solve those technical problems now.
Even if I agree that Trains isn't an industry magazine, Railway age has the same exact quotes on the subject. So again, EMD has told the public: "We WILL do this."
Yes, ACERT had issues, There were rumors that one thing CAT wanted out of EMD was the talent that made the 710 T2 compliant .
I have a friend that works in one of the major trucking manufacturers (won't say which) who is flabbergasted that GE and EMD have managed to meet T2 with their products and their fuel economy and emissions, so giving chapter and verse on the problems of the trucking industry really doesn't hold sway with me.
The only thing I've seen Trains say about EMD is that the ACe and M-2 have marked a small resurgence in quality and orders. And that appears to be true. EMD would be gone before the ACe was in existence if it weren't for UP and their giant SD70 order. That is no longer the case. EMD makes sales and in fact, in this horrible economy, assuming the graph in Trains is accurate, GE has given up far more production than EMD. They of course had further to fall.
This is a message board, and even the technically knowledgeable are not privy to everything going on in the engineering groups at GE and EMD, or, if they were, they certainly wouldn't have the right to talk about it.
Are GE's 645 parts better all around or is it just their 645F block that is better?
Do they make a 1033 part as well?
GP40-2 YoHo1975: ... making such a claim in a trade magazine... Trust me, Trains Magazine is not considered a "trade" magazine by anyone who actually works in the industry. They are often the last ones to know what is really going on in railroading. This is the same rag who a few years ago predicted the SD70ACe would be embraced by the RRs and easily out sell the GEVO, that GM had no intention to sell EMD, when the rest of us in the industry knew it was a done deal, that the SD50 was actually a good locomotive, etc, etc. Besides, you are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room, GE. They have a lot more resources to throw at this than even a CAT owned EMD has available. Let's just say for the sake of discussion that EMD is right, that an advanced 2 cycle diesel will be a better platform from an emissions perspective. What you don't know is GE is already investigating new technologies such as this from an R&D angle, and if it were the case, nothing would stop them from selling their own 2 cycle based on GEVO components. Don't even argue about money. They could develop a new engine for less than $100 million, pocket change for GE. And don't even argue no experience in 2 cycle diesel engines because they are a major supplier of 2 cycle EMD parts. Actually, GE's replacement parts are better engineered and manufactured than the original EMD made parts.
YoHo1975: ... making such a claim in a trade magazine...
... making such a claim in a trade magazine...
Trust me, Trains Magazine is not considered a "trade" magazine by anyone who actually works in the industry. They are often the last ones to know what is really going on in railroading. This is the same rag who a few years ago predicted the SD70ACe would be embraced by the RRs and easily out sell the GEVO, that GM had no intention to sell EMD, when the rest of us in the industry knew it was a done deal, that the SD50 was actually a good locomotive, etc, etc.
Besides, you are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room, GE. They have a lot more resources to throw at this than even a CAT owned EMD has available. Let's just say for the sake of discussion that EMD is right, that an advanced 2 cycle diesel will be a better platform from an emissions perspective. What you don't know is GE is already investigating new technologies such as this from an R&D angle, and if it were the case, nothing would stop them from selling their own 2 cycle based on GEVO components. Don't even argue about money. They could develop a new engine for less than $100 million, pocket change for GE. And don't even argue no experience in 2 cycle diesel engines because they are a major supplier of 2 cycle EMD parts. Actually, GE's replacement parts are better engineered and manufactured than the original EMD made parts.
Can you cite the issue dates for your contention that TRAINS predicted GM wouldn't sell EMD(I seem to remember reading the opposite) and that the SD70ACe/M-2 would outsell the GEVO? I do recall reading comments like that on the forums but not in the magazine.....
There's no question that Caterpillar is entering the locomotive business as an underdog but, like GE, they are one of the world's largest and most respected builders of Capital Equipment and have a strong track record of doing well with businesses they acquire. I.M.O the biggest boost to EMD's business will be CAT's ability to provide financing to locomotive customers, a General electric striong point...
I'm just glad to see two strong US based competitors in the Global Locomotive Market..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
edbenton A test Cell is One thing however Real World Testing and running out here is another. See when the EPA Mandated all the Crap on the OTR trucking less than 7 years ago for lower Emissions and Cummins Volvo and Detroit went with EGR. Cat came out with the Acert tech. Companies were told that these engines had TESTED at the same Performance and MPG as the Older Models. Companies were like We Will see. They came out and All HELL BROKE OUT. The EGRS were Unreliable as HELL and the MPG went from 6-8 depending on engines to 5-6 If you were LUCKY. Then the EPA said So SORRY you need to add a DPF also and it got worse we lost more MPG then we had another issue REGENS that were trucks were Burning down. Yet the EPA said you have to live with it. Now they have forced DPF and SCR on the OTR industry and if your lucky you might get 5 MPG. The next 2 Generations for Emmissions reductions for the Locomotive Industry and consider this CAT had been the Dominate OTR Engine from Kenworth Peterbilt Volvo Mack and International. Now they are not even IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. Why did they leave the EPA. In order to meet the 2010 dealine it would have cost them close to IIRC in the area of 4 BILLION dollars for the technolgy needed for OTR Trucks. Now remember they were all ready compliant with the 2007 regulations. What is it going to cost for the 710 to be made compliant for Tier 4 for a production run of only 100 units a year.
A test Cell is One thing however Real World Testing and running out here is another. See when the EPA Mandated all the Crap on the OTR trucking less than 7 years ago for lower Emissions and Cummins Volvo and Detroit went with EGR. Cat came out with the Acert tech. Companies were told that these engines had TESTED at the same Performance and MPG as the Older Models. Companies were like We Will see.
They came out and All HELL BROKE OUT. The EGRS were Unreliable as HELL and the MPG went from 6-8 depending on engines to 5-6 If you were LUCKY. Then the EPA said So SORRY you need to add a DPF also and it got worse we lost more MPG then we had another issue REGENS that were trucks were Burning down. Yet the EPA said you have to live with it. Now they have forced DPF and SCR on the OTR industry and if your lucky you might get 5 MPG.
The next 2 Generations for Emmissions reductions for the Locomotive Industry and consider this CAT had been the Dominate OTR Engine from Kenworth Peterbilt Volvo Mack and International. Now they are not even IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. Why did they leave the EPA. In order to meet the 2010 dealine it would have cost them close to IIRC in the area of 4 BILLION dollars for the technolgy needed for OTR Trucks. Now remember they were all ready compliant with the 2007 regulations. What is it going to cost for the 710 to be made compliant for Tier 4 for a production run of only 100 units a year.
Exactly. Also, no one should be surprised when many of the EPAs future mandates, including Tier 4, get pushed back "indefinitely" after the results of the 2010 mid-term elections, and what I'm predicting will happen after the 2012 elections. Politics is as much a part of this as engineering.
YoHo1975 ... making such a claim in a trade magazine...
Well, I understand the 1-710 engine at Argonne has been tested to Tier 4. They just haven't productized it.
As I've said many times, this is not my engineering expertise, but my experience is that if they're willing to talk to "the media" about it, then they are fairly well along in a solution. It's not pie in the sky in other words. They have an actionable plan that they believe will work.
With all the caveats of futurelooking statements that such a comment implies.
Of course, they just THINK they'll meet it, but to me, making such a claim in a trade magazine is throwing down a gauntlet. And I'm wondering if this public statement by them will change any of the opinions on this board? Some of which seem to find this impossible. EMD says it isn't.
YoHo1975 ... they think they can meet tier 4 with the 710 without sacrificing power and efficiency. Further, they think they'll meet it before GE and may have a more compelling solution....
... they think they can meet tier 4 with the 710 without sacrificing power and efficiency. Further, they think they'll meet it before GE and may have a more compelling solution....
Thinking you may be able to do something, and having an actual solution are not one in the same.
As of today, the 710 isn't any where near making Tier 4.
Norfolksouthern17 CSSHEGEWISCH: Murphy Siding: It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping? Does Berkshire Hathaway have an interest in Caterpillar? EMD is wholly owned by Progress Rail, which in turn is wholly owned by Caterpillar. General Motors sold EMD to Greenbriar Equity Group and Berkshire Partners in 2005. They in turn sold it to Progress Rail in August of this year. As far as I know Berkshire-Hathaway doesn't have an interest in Caterpillar.
CSSHEGEWISCH: Murphy Siding: It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping? Does Berkshire Hathaway have an interest in Caterpillar? EMD is wholly owned by Progress Rail, which in turn is wholly owned by Caterpillar.
Murphy Siding: It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping?
It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping?
Does Berkshire Hathaway have an interest in Caterpillar? EMD is wholly owned by Progress Rail, which in turn is wholly owned by Caterpillar.
General Motors sold EMD to Greenbriar Equity Group and Berkshire Partners in 2005. They in turn sold it to Progress Rail in August of this year. As far as I know Berkshire-Hathaway doesn't have an interest in Caterpillar.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
CSSHEGEWISCH Murphy Siding: It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping? Does Berkshire Hathaway have an interest in Caterpillar? EMD is wholly owned by Progress Rail, which in turn is wholly owned by Caterpillar.
Murphy Siding It appears that the EMD is now owned in part by Berkshire-Hathaway. I wonder what brand of locomotives BNSF will buy next time they go shopping?
Cat has to be looking at EMD's Stationary and Marine sales And one might assume that those customers would probably want to stick with the EMD engines.
Given the quote attributed to Marti Lenz regarding 4-cycle diesels and Tier 4, EMD may have concluded that it can't qualify the 265H. But CAT has non-locomotive "irons in the fire" with regard to Tier 4 compliance and one would think that it's putting serious R&D money into qualifying some of its 4-cycle diesels, where their applications require it. Whether results there are applicable to the locomotive application we won't know anytime soon. OTOH, the 710 and/or smaller/larger derivatives might become CAT's Tier 4 solution in some of its other markets, such as stationary generation and marine propulsion. This will be interesting to watch.
I read Train's article on EMD last night.
I recall, when news of the sale went through, there were heated discussions about the 710 being dead now, that it could never pass Tier 4.
Well the article reiterates what a couple people have said, EMD already has the NOX resolved without Urea BECAUSE it's a 2-cycle and they think they can meet tier 4 with the 710 without sacrificing power and efficiency. Further, they think they'll meet it before GE and may have a more compelling solution.
Does this change anyone's opinions on the viability of EMD's 2-Cycle platform?
Also, confirmed that they are going to bid on the new Amtrak order and that is in part why they now have EMD Muncie.
The only worrisome issue is that the President Hamilton resigned. He was a big proponent of the work with the 710 and spearheaded much of the post spinoff success of the company.
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