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UP's DDX40a's

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UP's DDX40a's
Posted by bubbajustin on Saturday, February 14, 2009 7:31 AM

Did the DDX40A's have 8 axels? Did it have more than one prime mover? Why were thay retired? Were thay turbocharged? Did they have both wide cab's and conventional cabs? I would just like to have some info on these big engines. Is the train just to the left of this months issue at the top of the screen being pulled by a DDX40A?

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Posted by jrbernier on Saturday, February 14, 2009 11:26 AM

They have 8 powered axles on two large trucks.

They have 2 turbocharged 645 prime movers.

They got 'old', and were too expensive to keep in service.  If one of the prime movers failed, you basically had the entire unit out of service.  However they field tested the 'dash-2' electronics, and several other features before they went into regular production.  By the time they were retired, they were pretty worn out, and were replaced by standard SD40-2 engines.

The DDA40X was know as the 'Centennial' engines as the were built just before the 'Golden Spike' centennial in 1969.  It has 6,600 hp and features a 'cowl' style cab.

The DD35 was a 'B' unit only(basically a pair of GP35's on a common frame).  It had a pair of turgocharged 567 prime movers(5000 hp).

The DD35A was similar but had a standard EMD 'sparten' style cab.

Jim

 

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Saturday, February 14, 2009 2:59 PM

GE of course had twin engined units also, in a couple of different versions.  And I believe Alco too, though none quite as enduring as the DD40AX.  They were quite impressive, but probably not so practical.  UP still has one running.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Saturday, February 14, 2009 7:37 PM

trainfan1221

GE of course had twin engined units also, in a couple of different versions.  And I believe Alco too, though none quite as enduring as the DD40AX.  They were quite impressive, but probably not so practical.  UP still has one running.

You say GE and Alco also made unit's like this? What were these unit's designations I would be intrested to learn about them. I can only imagine the smoke that came out of the Alco unit!!! Why do you say these unit's wern't as enduring as the DD40AX's?

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Posted by jrbernier on Saturday, February 14, 2009 11:14 PM

Justin,

 Alco delivered the Century 855(5500 hp on 4 type B trucks). 

GE delivered the U50(5000 hp on 4 type B trucks). 

GE later delivered the U50C(5000 hp in C-C trucks).  These engines had a short life as electrical fires were a common part of their normal operation(aluminum wiring).

  The 'Centennial' DDA40X lasted the longest of all the 'Double Engine' units.  There is still one(6936) that is operational and is part of UP's 'Heritage' fleet of engines.

Jim Bernier

 

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Posted by erikem on Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:00 AM

 Strictly speaking, the E's outlasted the DDA40X's, but those were riding A1A trucks. The DDA40X's were the longest lasting double engine locomotives with 5,000 or more HP.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:10 AM

Hi all.

Thank's for teling me about these locomotives. I enjoy learning about locomotives like this! Ones that changed history or ones that are just plain huge!

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Sunday, February 15, 2009 2:57 PM

I never even thought about that, an E unit could be considered the same as they are also double engined.  The difference, of course is that the DD40 and related GE and Alco models were literally two engines turned into one, the U50C literally being two U25s connected at the radiator.  Weird stuff but an interesting footnote in locomotive history.  I believe SP also owned the Alco version, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:31 PM

trainfan1221

I never even thought about that, an E unit could be considered the same as they are also double engined.  The difference, of course is that the DD40 and related GE and Alco models were literally two engines turned into one, the U50C literally being two U25s connected at the radiator.  Weird stuff but an interesting footnote in locomotive history.  I believe SP also owned the Alco version, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

So an E unit is basically a DD40X in a streamlined cowl car body? I didn't know that. You say that the U50C is two U25's connected at the radiators. Is this loco' articulated to go around curves? Did this loco share a cooling system with the "other locomotive" or were the cooling systems combined into one large radiator?

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Posted by SSW9389 on Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:28 PM

During the 1960s the Southern Pacific had 21 twin engine Krauss Maffei Diesel Hydraulics and three twin engine Alco Diesel Hydraulics. They were not a successful design and all were retired. Southern Pacific also owned three DD35s and three U50s.

trainfan1221

I never even thought about that, an E unit could be considered the same as they are also double engined.  The difference, of course is that the DD40 and related GE and Alco models were literally two engines turned into one, the U50C literally being two U25s connected at the radiator.  Weird stuff but an interesting footnote in locomotive history.  I believe SP also owned the Alco version, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:35 PM

I assume the DD35 is somewhat like the DD40x.

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Posted by jrbernier on Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:19 PM

Justin,

  The EMD 'E' series are not even similar.  E's have either a pair of 12 cylinder non-turbocharged 201-A or 567 prime movers(1800-2400 hp) in a a car body configuration, with A1A trucks underneath - Pure passenger engines.  The last of the line(E9) was built in the early 60's.

  The GE U50C had a pair of turbocharged 12 cylinder FDL engines that produced a total of 5000 hp.  The U50 used a pair of older 16 cylinder FDL engines to produce the same 5000 hp.  These engines were basically a pair of U25B's on a common frame.

  The Alco C855 was delivered in both 'cab' & 'booster' versions with a pair of 12 cylinder '251' series prime movers delivering 5,500 hp.  Only UP bought them(an 'ABA' set).

Jim

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:56 PM

SSW9389

During the 1960s the Southern Pacific had 21 twin engine Krauss Maffei Diesel Hydraulics and three twin engine Alco Diesel Hydraulics. They were not a successful design and all were retired. Southern Pacific also owned three DD35s and three U50s.

Some of these Kraus Maffei engines (I do not remember how many) were bought by the Rio Grande at the same time that the SP made their purchase from the builder. After the Rio Grande learned that they were not suitable for their operation, they were sold to the SP. The K-M's are an almost forgotten chapter in the history of locomotives in this country.

Johnny

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Posted by erikem on Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:08 PM

bubbajustin

So an E unit is basically a DD40X in a streamlined cowl car body? I didn't know that. You say that the U50C is two U25's connected at the radiators. Is this loco' articulated to go around curves? Did this loco share a cooling system with the "other locomotive" or were the cooling systems combined into one large radiator?

 

As said elsewhere, the DDA40X is a different beast than the E units. The highest powered E was the E-9 with a total of 2400 horsepower and the E's were intended for passenger service. The U50B, U50C, C-855, DD35, DD40 and DDA40X were all intended for freight hauling, essentially two B-B locomotives on one frame. The U50B and C-855 made use of the trucks and span bolsters from the UP's 4500HP gas turbine locomotives and the U50C used the trucks from the 8500HP gas turbine locomotives.

The first E units were 1800HP box cabs with a B-B wheel arrangement built in 1935, the 'E' standing for Eighteen hundred horsepower. They were equipped with two twelve cylinder 201A engines putting out 900HP each. Later versions were fitted with A1A trucks to accommodate the increase in weight and also fitted with streamlined carbodies.
 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, February 16, 2009 7:30 AM

Jim: Paired 16V-251C engines in these. Same as the then current C628. See http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataC628.HTML for stats on 16V-251C. Engine data for C855 is wrong on Diesel Shop page at http://www.thedieselshop.us/DataC855.HTML . See Steinbrenner Centennial Remembrance page 432 for C855 photo of frame on the floor at Schenectady, NY with V-16 mounted on frame.

 

Ed

jrbernier

  The Alco C855 was delivered in both 'cab' & 'booster' versions with a pair of 12 cylinder '251' series prime movers delivering 5,500 hp.  Only UP bought them(an 'ABA' set).

Jim

 

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, February 16, 2009 7:38 AM

Johnny: Thanks, I did not want to go in to all the history of the K-Ms but just mentioned that they were large for their time double engine units. The Rio Grande had three of the cab version K-Ms #4001-4003. These were built at the same time as the Southern Pacific's three units. The six K-M cab units were all delivered at Houston on October 31, 1961. The Rio Grande's three were tested and found wanting. The Rio Grande K-Ms were sold to the Southern Pacific on February 6, 1964 and rejoined their sister units on that road. Source of data Locomotives of the Rio Grande by the Colorado Railroad Museum 1983.

 

Ed

 

Deggesty

SSW9389

During the 1960s the Southern Pacific had 21 twin engine Krauss Maffei Diesel Hydraulics and three twin engine Alco Diesel Hydraulics. They were not a successful design and all were retired. Southern Pacific also owned three DD35s and three U50s.

Some of these Kraus Maffei engines (I do not remember how many) were bought by the Rio Grande at the same time that the SP made their purchase from the builder. After the Rio Grande learned that they were not suitable for their operation, they were sold to the SP. The K-M's are an almost forgotten chapter in the history of locomotives in this country.

Johnny

 

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, February 16, 2009 7:45 AM

Don Strack's definitive article on the DD35 and DD35A here http://utahrails.net/articles/up-dd35.php

bubbajustin

I assume the DD35 is somewhat like the DD40x.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, February 16, 2009 7:48 AM

Don Strack's most excellent on line article about the UP Centennials here http://utahrails.net/articles/up-dda40x.php 

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Monday, February 16, 2009 6:01 PM

bubbajustin

trainfan1221

I never even thought about that, an E unit could be considered the same as they are also double engined.  The difference, of course is that the DD40 and related GE and Alco models were literally two engines turned into one, the U50C literally being two U25s connected at the radiator.  Weird stuff but an interesting footnote in locomotive history.  I believe SP also owned the Alco version, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

So an E unit is basically a DD40X in a streamlined cowl car body? I didn't know that. You say that the U50C is two U25's connected at the radiators. Is this loco' articulated to go around curves? Did this loco share a cooling system with the "other locomotive" or were the cooling systems combined into one large radiator?

It wasn't articulated, just one long frame.  The radiators were back to back
bubbajustin

trainfan1221

I never even thought about that, an E unit could be considered the same as they are also double engined.  The difference, of course is that the DD40 and related GE and Alco models were literally two engines turned into one, the U50C literally being two U25s connected at the radiator.  Weird stuff but an interesting footnote in locomotive history.  I believe SP also owned the Alco version, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

So an E unit is basically a DD40X in a streamlined cowl car body? I didn't know that. You say that the U50C is two U25's connected at the radiators. Is this loco' articulated to go around curves? Did this loco share a cooling system with the "other locomotive" or were the cooling systems combined into one large radiator?

It wasn't articulated, just on one long frame.  The radiators were back to back, but looked like one big unit, you'll have to see a picture to understand it more clearly.

A regular DD40 was offered but never built, though an HO model was made of it.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:35 PM

So it was just on one BIG LONG frame and has 2 cooling systems that look like one big unit. Ok thank you for the replies all! 

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Posted by bubbajustin on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:13 PM

jrbernier

Justin,

  The EMD 'E' series are not even similar.  E's have either a pair of 12 cylinder non-turbocharged 201-A or 567 prime movers(1800-2400 hp) in a a car body configuration, with A1A trucks underneath - Pure passenger engines.  The last of the line(E9) was built in the early 60's.

  The GE U50C had a pair of turbocharged 12 cylinder FDL engines that produced a total of 5000 hp.  The U50 used a pair of older 16 cylinder FDL engines to produce the same 5000 hp.  These engines were basically a pair of U25B's on a common frame.

  The Alco C855 was delivered in both 'cab' & 'booster' versions with a pair of 12 cylinder '251' series prime movers delivering 5,500 hp.  Only UP bought them(an 'ABA' set).

Jim

Imagine how 5,000 hp would feel on the passengers in run 8! Bill the passenger, #%^^%$#!@#$^&**&^^^*&%$!!![(-D] Thank's for correcting me though. These engines are better at pulling a passenger train.

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:24 PM

5000hp on a passenger train isn't too out of the question...NJTransit's new engines are over 4000.  You don't notice on the train too much, but when you see one leave the station, they don't waste time lets just say.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:36 PM

I guess that's true but I was saying instantley pullindg the throttle out to run 2 or 3, if you didn't bust a knuckle or anything. Aren't those engines that Alstom built? I can only imagine that those engines don't wast any time!

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:47 PM

Yeah thats them.  They are different but seem to get the job done, though I had heard NJT initially had problems with them.  Even though they are still the new engines, after awhile you get used to them.  But they do take off pretty fast, some of the others ones, like some of the GP40FHs, took their time getting going.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:17 PM

Theay do look a bit futuristic but if that get's the job done for NJT then I guess that we will have to deel with it. I think that theay look cool. I'm sure that 4000 hp will get a train moving. You should read the book Locomotives The Moderm Diesel and Electric Refrance. That book tells you about Alstom and the NJT order. I recomend reading it!

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:20 PM

I've never seen it but I will keep an eye out, sounds interesting.

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Posted by bubbajustin on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:30 PM

I got my coppy at my local Barns and Nobles store. It was $50.00. Well worth the cash!!!

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Posted by narig01 on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:20 PM

 Comment on double engines of the 1960's.  Darwin really worked hard on these. Only the EMD's survived  for very long. And then only because they had very reliable equipment with much parts commonality with other EMD designs.   The C855, U 50 C & U 50 B designs were very short lived. I thing the U 50 s went to scrap after only 10 years.  Baldwin had stopped building locomotives by the time these ideas were being tried.

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Posted by kalvingp30fan on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:46 PM

The C855's also lasted less than 10 years. Does anyone have a picture of just a c855b by itself? I have only seen the A units by themselves.

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 9:20 PM

 Baldwin might have been gone by then, but this is the company that tried to put EIGHT engines in one unit, never completed.  Probably thankfully.

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