5000 HP Hydraulic Diesel

[da_kraut]

Hello everybody,

was surfing the net when I ran across web pages showing of a 5000 HP Hydraulic Diesel.  Here are a couple of sites:

http://www.voithturbo.com/vt_en_act_highlights.htm

http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/667405/voith_maxima_set_for_innotrans_debut/index.html 

This makes one wonder if the hydraulic transmissions are making a comeback and if so will they make it over here as well.  It would be interesting to see how four of those locomotives would do  dragging a 10,000 ton coal train up the Appalachian mountains in CSX territory.  How would they stand up over time?

Another thought would be to use them in passenger service.

Frank 

[carnej1]

 There was a recent thread on these forums covering this (the "search" function should uncover it). Basically, the Diesel Hydraulic systems favored in some parts of Europe allow high tractive effort in a lighter package, but at the cost of additional mainenance expenses. This was the case with SP and DRGW's experimentation with Diesel Hydraulic locomotives back in the 1960's. Modern AC drive traction more than levels the playing field and makes better economic sense for the extremely large road units favored in North America. Europe has a much lighter loading gauge so the locomotives need to be smaller.

[philnrunt]

    Thats what I remember about the Krauss-Maffai's,(sp) they had a great idea, but couldn't bear up under stress of North American RRing.

   Last year, I was lucky enough to talk with a fella from Great Britain, he was videoing CSX trains in Farmland, Indiana. As a train approached at 60MPH, 3 howling GE's on the front, he pointed out how much more visceral and brutal railroading was here. If GE or EMD adopts hydraulics, I would imagine it would be a much stouter system.   

[SSW9389]

The problems with the Krauss-Maffei hydraulics in US railroading are well documented. The primary problem was with the Maybach engines that operated at high rpm. Another problem or what made the locomotives obsolete at a very young age was the fact that it took two V16 Maybachs to produce 3540 horsepower for traction. When the 20 cylinder SD45 arrived on the SP rated at 3600 horsepower the Krauss-Maffei was a lame duck. There were never that many problems with the Voith hydraulic drive system. In fact the Voith Hydraulic drive system was used on the ALCO DH 643s. The link in the first post of this thread is to Voith who is evidentily still in business and doing fine.

 

    Thats what I remember about the Krauss-Maffai's,(sp) they had a great idea, but couldn't bear up under stress of North American RRing.

   Last year, I was lucky enough to talk with a fella from Great Britain, he was videoing CSX trains in Farmland, Indiana. As a train approached at 60MPH, 3 howling GE's on the front, he pointed out how much more visceral and brutal railroading was here. If GE or EMD adopts hydraulics, I would imagine it would be a much stouter system.   

[Flint Hills Tex]

Voith has made a name for itself manufacturing turbo retarders for diesel engines, which enhance dynamic braking. You will be hard put to find a truck without a Voith retarder, and I've been told that they're used on many locomotives in North America.

One of Voith's smaller production branches is hydraulic transmissions, which have an excellent reputation. Voith astounded the railroad industry in Europe last year by introducing the Maxima. They have a full palatte of models listed on their web-site, but so far have only built one prototype. The body design is very avante garde, but no one is sure how well the Maxima will perform out on the high-iron.

[ndbprr]

I distinctly remember Trains stating that the transmissions got a clean bill of health and were not a problem in service.  The engines may not have been up to snuff but the transmissions were fine.

[phishplatephan]

Hi, I am an owner of a Diesel Hydraulic locomotive in the UK, a British Railways Class 52 locomotive D1015 named Western Champion.

We regularly run the locomotive on Rail Fan specials and its been operating with us since February 2002. We bought it as scrap in 1980 and spent 22 years rebuilding it in our own time (for love!) with a complete rewire, body overhaul, engine and truck rebuild and transmission overhaul. We only work at week-ends and all the money came from our own pockets (around $250,000.00). Yes we are mad!!

The biggest load we have ever pulled is 13 carriages with a Class 66 locomotive (GM built) shut down on the rear Up a 1-in-37 hill for 4 miles at a starting speed of 5 mph at the bottom and 15mph over the top. The load was over 600 tons which is quite high to UK standards, especially up a steep hill!!

Its got two Maybach engines and the noise was awesome!!

I'm coming on my fist vist to the USA in April to see multiple locomotive trains at Tehachipi and I hope to see the Big Boy / Centennial in LA and see the American diesel hydraulic loco in a museum at Sacremento.

Information on our locomotive can be found at  www.westernchampion.co.uk

Regards, Mark Alden, London, UK.

 

[da_kraut]

Hi,

thank you for all the replies.  phishplatephan you guys done a true labour of love.  Great job and keep up the great work.

Frank 

[Flint Hills Tex]

The January "Eisenbahn Journal" reports that Voith has the first orders on the books for the Maxima! A Dutch locomotive leasor by the name of Ox-Traction has ordered 15 Maxima CC with an option for 23 additional units. Ox-Traction also ordered 15 Gravita units (a less powerful road-switcher) with an option for 32 additional units.

[Tulyar15]

The biggest load we have ever pulled is 13 carriages with a Class 66 locomotive (GM built) shut down on the rear Up a 1-in-37 hill for 4 miles at a starting speed of 5 mph at the bottom and 15mph over the top. The load was over 600 tons which is quite high to UK standards, especially up a steep hill!!

Its got two Maybach engines and the noise was awesome!!

Mark,

I take it the hill concerned was the Lickey Incline at Bromsgrove! I have had the pleasure of being on D1015's first main line outing in 2002, and back in September I was on the trip to Aberystwyth - you can see some pics I posted at www.nwwrail.org.uk. I hope your trip to Holyhead last Saturday went well.

IF you contact me off list I can send you a DVD I filmed on the trip to Aberystwyth

[BNSF_GP60M]

I'm coming on my fist vist to the USA in April to see multiple locomotive trains at Tehachipi and I hope to see the Big Boy / Centennial in LA and see the American diesel hydraulic loco in a museum at Sacremento.

The American diesel hydraulic (SP 9113) is not on display in Sacramento. It is currently sitting at the shops, at last report, in bad condition. However it was converted to a camera car for rail simulations. Here is what the unit looks like.

http://espee.railfan.net/sp-camera_car.html

[daveklepper]

Use on a system with shorter runs, more frequent and detailed maintenance, and less temperature extremes than North American railroading.   By European standards, North American railroads "run the pants" off locomotives.

[da_kraut]

Hi Mark,

first off to the forum.  It would be great to hear what you think of the North American style of railroading and use of their locomotives.  This from a European point of view from someone that has great inside knowledge would be fascinating.  When you get back home from your vacation please post.  I am certain that many other members would also be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks

Frank 

[Tulyar15]

Digressing slightly, UK readers may be interested to know that in the March 2008 "Modern Railways" there's a photo of one of these new diesel hydraulic locos. Apparrently a German Open Access operator has ordered a couple. Meanwhile on the same page there's also a pic of the new Vosslof/EMD 4,200 hp diesel built in Spain. These look very much like a stretched EWS Class 67, with Co-Co bogies.

[owlsroost]

Its got two Maybach engines and the noise was awesome!!

I'm coming on my fist visit to the USA in April to see multiple locomotive trains at Tehachapi and I hope to see the Big Boy / Centennial in LA and see the American diesel hydraulic loco in a museum at Sacremento.

Information on our locomotive can be found at  www.westernchampion.co.uk

Regards, Mark Alden, London, UK.

Hi Mark - welcome to the forum!

The only problem with railfanning in the US is that it can get very addictive - I went over to the east coast for a 'fix' in September. One of the highlights of a week spent around Sand Patch and Horseshoe Curve was four 30 year old SD40-2s pushing a coal train upgrade at Cassandra - 12,000 full-throttle diesel horsepower at less than 15 mph......the noise echoing off the valley sides was something else....!

They may not have Maybach's but if you like your diesels big & loud you won't be disappointed (exhaust mufflers - never heard of 'em....)

Tehachapi is a great place to watch trains (as are Cajon Pass & Fullerton) - enjoy ! 

Tony

(Must catch up with D1015 sometime - fond memories of watching 'Westerns' back in the 70s....well done Mark for getting one running again) 

[espeefoamer]

All RDCs had hydraulic transmissions.A small number are still in service.

[jrbernier]

  Most of the US applications have been of the mechanical/torque converter type, as in the RDC and KM/Alco models.   Have these European 'Diesel Hydraulic' engines been the same or do they have true hydraulic motors attached to the axles?

Jim

[owlsroost]

They are/were mechanical/torque converter type - usually a two or three-speed transmission using torque converters and/or fluid couplings (each converter/coupling covers a different part of the speed range).

The modern Voith transmissions used in Europe 'change gear' by moving the transmission fluid around between converter and fluid couplings under computer control - without any loss of tractive effort during changes. More info at http://www.voithturbo.com/index_e.htm

Tony

[blue streak 1]

Question: do Colorado rail cars have hydraulic transmissions? comment: The improvement in hydraulics for heavy equipment is amazing however I've never been a fan of them for locomotivies.